Send Alexandra to Victoria

[Rockfish]

E

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Sorry but it is far from the single worst thing to migrating salmon. If you would have asked me 5 years ago I would have 100% agreed with you. However, I have became educated and have learned that alot of what we see in the press by Morton is skewed B.S. That being said i beleive that there are some issues with the farms, but are pale incomparison to the rest of the major issue such as fish ranching of chum and pinks. The issues with farms are much smaller on Pacific salmon than you would think, especially Coho and Chinook, and the major fish that is hurt by farms wich is never talked about is the steelhead. Even then by the time steelhead are in the ocean they are too big for lice to effect them ( like all the other salmon). Anyhow good thread everyone is entitled to there own opinnion this is mine and long live P.salmon, just wish people could understand that just because it makes front page of a newspaper dosn't make it true.

A new member with 7 short posts some of which start with “agree Dave” and “couldn’t agree more Dave”. What a surprise. I consider the source when I read your posts and you apparent allegiances. If only we would all also become educated (accept the industry propaganda ) everything would be wonderful; for the open pen Atlantic salmon feedlots. I will agree that the feed lot disease factories are not the only causative decline factor facing wild fish. They are, however, one that carries significant risk and the only one which DFO so blatantly ignores the cautionary principal because of political influence.

It is also the only causative factor that can be so easily fixed. Putting more water back into our rivers and streams in the summer for example is a little more difficult than removing net pens. The only reason the industry likes to point at other causes for decline is to deflect from the role they themselves play in that decline. Those other factors are being worked on and there will be more resources and energy to do so once your open pen alien Atlantic salmon feedlots and their diseases are out of our waters.

Those who profit from this industry and their PR Hacks attack Morton at every opportunity because her work threatens their profits and keeps them from operating in the shadows free of any serious scrutiny.

 

[Englishman]

E

ii​

Sorry but it is far from the single worst thing to migrating salmon. If you would have asked me 5 years ago I would have 100% agreed with you. However, I have became educated and have learned that alot of what we see in the press by Morton is skewed B.S. That being said i beleive that there are some issues with the farms, but are pale incomparison to the rest of the major issue such as fish ranching of chum and pinks. The issues with farms are much smaller on Pacific salmon than you would think, especially Coho and Chinook, and the major fish that is hurt by farms wich is never talked about is the steelhead. Even then by the time steelhead are in the ocean they are too big for lice to effect them ( like all the other salmon). Anyhow good thread everyone is entitled to there own opinnion this is mine and long live P.salmon, just wish people could understand that just because it makes front page of a newspaper dosn't make it true.

Au contraire, salmon feed lots ARE the biggest threat to migrating wild salmon. They spread lice and virus diseases to outgoing smolts. And then they potentially spread virus diseases to in-coming adults. A double whammy!!
You see, myself and other opponents of the salmon feed lot industry do not base their opinions on newspaper articles as you suppose. It is the proponents of salmon farms who read and believe newspaper articles. After all that is where politicians and salmon feed lot owners post their unsubstantiated poison.
Instead we feed lot opponents read the scientific papers on the subject. And the science is irrefutable.
Here are a few:
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/318/5857/1772
http://www.biologynews.net/archives...ild_salmon_populations_toward_extinction.html
http://www.raincoast.org/wp-content...2012_Salmon-farms-as-source-of-lice_CJFAS.pdf
http://www.ottokinne.de/articles/dao/44/d044p001.pdf
And I don’t know what you are referring to regarding steelhead. If the smolts do migrate on the same routes as salmon they will be affected too. However, I don’t know if anyone has done any research, so your comment is probably speculation.
Also, please provide your source scientific documentation regarding the impacts of chum and pink salmon ranching!!

 

[River Rat]

E

ii​

and the major fish that is hurt by farms wich is never talked about is the steelhead. Even then by the time steelhead are in the ocean they are too big for lice to effect them.

um....which is it......they do harm to steelhead, or they don't, because that statement makes no sense.

 

[outback]

Au contraire, salmon feed lots ARE the biggest threat to migrating wild salmon. They spread lice and virus diseases to outgoing smolts. And then they potentially spread virus diseases to in-coming adults. A double whammy!!
You see, myself and other opponents of the salmon feed lot industry do not base their opinions on newspaper articles as you suppose. It is the proponents of salmon farms who read and believe newspaper articles. After all that is where politicians and salmon feed lot owners post their unsubstantiated poison.
Instead we feed lot opponents read the scientific papers on the subject. And the science is irrefutable.
Here are a few:
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/318/5857/1772
http://www.biologynews.net/archives...ild_salmon_populations_toward_extinction.html
http://www.raincoast.org/wp-content...2012_Salmon-farms-as-source-of-lice_CJFAS.pdf
http://www.ottokinne.de/articles/dao/44/d044p001.pdf
And I don’t know what you are referring to regarding steelhead. If the smolts do migrate on the same routes as salmon they will be affected too. However, I don’t know if anyone has done any research, so your comment is probably speculation.
Also, please provide your source scientific documentation regarding the impacts of chum and pink salmon ranching!!

now please dont attack me, but do hear me out ; This is a qoute from the Second article that you linked

"The scientists expect a 99% collapse in another four years[in pink salmon], or two salmon generations, if the infestations continue" - the article in dated to 2007... Pink stocks all seem healthy to me.

the first article : ". If outbreaks continue, then local extinction is certain, and a 99% collapse in pink salmon population abundance is expected in four salmon generations. " (again dated to 2007) .... 3 generations of pink salmon return with no " certain" extinction in sight.

I am against open pen fish farming (particularly on migration routes),. I do believe they have a part in salmon declines and that they are a threat, but not what some have made it out to be.

Bigger threats to salmon include:
ocean temperature rises - Tuna (including mackerel) praying on juvenile salmon... Cut dozens of mackerel open this summer, stuffed to the guts with salmon smolts.
Continued by-catch of chinook salmon from Alaska cod fishery.
And last but not least, The federal government.

 

[Sculpin]

now please dont attack me, but do hear me out ; This is a qoute from the Second article that you linked

"The scientists expect a 99% collapse in another four years[in pink salmon], or two salmon generations, if the infestations continue" - the article in dated to 2007... Pink stocks all seem healthy to me.

the first article : ". If outbreaks continue, then local extinction is certain, and a 99% collapse in pink salmon population abundance is expected in four salmon generations. " (again dated to 2007) .... 3 generations of pink salmon return with no " certain" extinction in sight.

I am against open pen fish farming (particularly on migration routes),. I do believe they have a part in salmon declines and that they are a threat, but not what some have made it out to be.

Bigger threats to salmon include:
ocean temperature rises - Tuna (including mackerel) praying on juvenile salmon... Cut dozens of mackerel open this summer, stuffed to the guts with salmon smolts.
Continued by-catch of chinook salmon from Alaska cod fishery.
And last but not least, The federal government.

Good post outback.

 

[Englishman]

now please dont attack me, but do hear me out ; This is a qoute from the Second article that you linked

"The scientists expect a 99% collapse in another four years[in pink salmon], or two salmon generations, if the infestations continue" - the article in dated to 2007... Pink stocks all seem healthy to me.

the first article : ". If outbreaks continue, then local extinction is certain, and a 99% collapse in pink salmon population abundance is expected in four salmon generations. " (again dated to 2007) .... 3 generations of pink salmon return with no " certain" extinction in sight.

I am against open pen fish farming (particularly on migration routes),. I do believe they have a part in salmon declines and that they are a threat, but not what some have made it out to be.

Outback, those predictions were made about the Broughton archipelago pink runs – not all pink runs on the entire coast! And only if nothing was done to reduce the impact of the salmon feed lots infesting those migration routes used by the local runs. The Broughton populations has cycled considerably since the paper was published but industry changes have been made. Some feed lots were fallowed at migration times and changes have been made to the timing of application of SLICE to kill the lice in the feed lots. The latter of course is only a short term solution as lice will become resistant, and indeed have been observed as already becoming immune to this treatment.
The risk to pink salmon of the Broughton remains huge, especially once the lice become fully immune to SLICE.

Bigger threats to salmon include:
ocean temperature rises - Tuna (including mackerel) praying on juvenile salmon... Cut dozens of mackerel open this summer, stuffed to the guts with salmon smolts. .

The impacts of global warming are serious, no doubt. However, we can do something locally, now, with respect to getting rid of the fish feed lots. Global warming requires a much bigger concerted global effort which is outside the scope of Alex Morton and most people on this forum!

Continued by-catch of chinook salmon from Alaska cod fishery..

I think you are confusing the cod and pollock fishing industry. The Alaska cod fishery catches a quarter of the by-catch of the pollock fishery.
http://alaskafisheries.noaa.gov/npfmc/bycatch-controls/GOA-salmon-bycatch.html
I have already posted links on the Alaska pollock industry changes which have managed the by-catch right down in recent years. (See my post a couple of entries back).
This is literally a “red herring” and is nowhere near the risk to Chinook and Coho that the salmon feed lot plague is.

And last but not least, The federal government.

No argument there!! LOL

 

[Birdsnest]

For example the Alaskan pollock fisher which it has just been proven has decimated Alaskan spring salmon runs down 90%. All the while they have been spending money here with the wild salmon conservancy trying to blame salmon farms. We have known about this for some time. Those are our fish up there too!!!! There is a good article on it in a salmon and stealhead mag somewhere but I could never find it online. Our local draggers dig up there share too.

Seems that some in Alaska are quite concerned about this.

It appears that deep sea trawling is the culprit in the mystery of where have the chinook salmon gone. Studies show that the increase in pollock fishing on U.S. trawlers or "draggers" that drag the bottom floor and pick up EVERYTHING, has direct correlation with chinook salmon numbers going down drastically in the whole state. As a subsistence & sport fisher person on the Anchor, Kasilof, & Kenai rivers I am directly affected by the rapid decline in chinook salmon. The Yukon & all other rivers are affected too.

https://www.facebook.com/EndTrawlerSalmonBycatch

http://signon.org/sign/end-salmon-halibut-bycatch?source=s.fwd&r_by=7077315

 

[wstcoaster]

steelhead smolts usualy stay in rivers until about 6 or 8 inches long; this should help with any sealice around salmon feedlots

 

[Englishman]

Seems that some in Alaska are quite concerned about this.



https://www.facebook.com/EndTrawlerSalmonBycatch

http://signon.org/sign/end-salmon-halibut-bycatch?source=s.fwd&r_by=7077315

Birdsnest you are at it again.

The fact that there is Facebook site expressing some opinions is no different from your quoting unsubstantiated newspaper opinions by politicians or similarly ecologically ignorant people.

The Alaska pollock fishery has received sustainability certification from the Marine Conservation Council .
http://www.fishonline.org/fish/alaska-pollock-walleye-pollock-27

“Since the US extended its fisheries management jurisdiction to 200 miles in 1976, the BSAI pollock fishery has operated under science-based catch limits and under an ecosystem-based management approach. The fishery is acclaimed as an exemplary model of a responsibly managed fishery. In 2005, the BSAI pollock fishery became the 11th fishery in the world to be certified to the MSC Standard.”

Likewise it has been certified by the Marine Stewardship Council.
http://www.msc.org/track-a-fishery/fisheries-in-the-program/certified/pacific/gulf-of-alaska-pollock

The total Chinook mortality from by-catch in all of the groundfish fisheries (including Pollock) are published here and have been significantly reduced since 2007.

http://alaskafisheries.noaa.gov/sustainablefisheries/inseason/chinook_salmon_mortality.pdf

Brirdsnest, I repeat, you clearly do not read the scientific data or information from accredited bodies like these Marine Fishery Certification bodies. Instead you throw up “red herrings” like a random Facebook site set up by who the hell knows.

By catch will remain something that has to be monitored closely, BUT IT PALES INTO INSIGNIFICANCE COMPARED TO THE CURRENT AND POTENTIAL IMPACTS OF THE SALMON FEED LOTS ON SALMON MIGRATORY ROUTES!!

 

[Dave]

I disagree Englishman. The biggest long term threat to the future of wild salmonids in BC is all anthropologic ... most definitely climate change; then habitat loss and finally, over harvesting, by all user groups, including you and I.
The impact of fish farms on wild salmonid production compared to the above is not measurable, imo. If I’m wrong, educate me ...other than some well published photos of pink juveniles wearing sea lice, show me defensible data that salmon farms have impacted wild BC salmon stocks.

 

[Birdsnest]

The Alaska pollock fishery has received sustainability certification from the Marine Conservation Council .

Not without controversy.

http://juneautek.com/2013/02/21/market-news-msc-sustainability-salmon-and-me/

There are some basic items that do not support the statement of the trawl fishery king salmon bycatch. This is a nice summary:

http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/biologists-look-ocean-clues-alaska-king-salmon-collapse

 

[outback]

I disagree Englishman. The biggest long term threat to the future of wild salmonids in BC is all anthropologic ... most definitely climate change; then habitat loss and finally, over harvesting, by all user groups, including you and I.
The impact of fish farms on wild salmonid production compared to the above is not measurable, imo. If I’m wrong, educate me ...other than some well published photos of pink juveniles wearing sea lice, show me defensible data that salmon farms have impacted wild BC salmon stocks.

The fact that the federal government is preventing and cutting funding to studies regarding the data you are searching for should be enough.

 

[medherring]

A few years ago I jumped on a research boat from U of Washington as they did sea lice infestation studies on outward migrating salmon fry in Clayoquot Sound (lots of fish farm sea pens) and compared to the same study they did in Barkley Sound (no fish farm sea pens). 90% had a mortality infestation (more than 1.5 lice per fish) in Clayoquot Sound compared to 4% in Barkley Sound..

Pretty significant with the only real difference between the 2 sounds being the presence of fish farm pens along their outward migration path.

It was a real eye opener to catch 1000 fry and only find a couple without sea lice.

 

[Birdsnest]

So did you do all or a lot of the sampling? I heard on the first year they could not find fry in Barkley and they were stumped and were thinking of going to Nootka. From the sounds of what you are saying they did get samples from Barkley eventually. Has the study been posted anywhere? It was nice to see more chums around last fall apposed to the last 3 or 4 years where I hardly saw any.

 

[medherring]

So did you do all or a lot of the sampling? I heard on the first year they could not find fry in Barkley and they were stumped and were thinking of going to Nootka. From the sounds of what you are saying they did get samples from Barkley eventually. Has the study been posted anywhere? It was nice to see more chums around last fall opposed to the last 3 or 4 years where I hardly saw any.

I just went one day we did 3 sets throughout the sound, they had data from both sounds and showed the comparisons to us. I did get the finalized paper, I will have to track it down and will try to post it.

Yeah, it was definitely nice to see more chum behind Meares last fall.

 

[Jesse B.]

Alaska chinook collapse and steelhead virul spirul

I am not going to argue with you Englishman, but the article Birdsnest is referring to is from the "Salmon & Steelhead Journal" volume 10. Yes he is a dirty salmon farmer, but he is correct in pointing out the problems with trawlers. Even here they waist our fish, albiet, not 85 000 springs caught and thrown over board like in Alaska, just all our halibut, ling cod and rock fish, plus some salmon for good mesure, pretty pathetic. Much of the collaps may have to do with poor water upwellings bringing nutrients to late, but add it all up and were all getting screwed. West Coast Vancouver Island chinook only exist in hatcheries and until we are able to protect them they're never coming back.
My own personal theory on steelhead collapses is angler induced greatly by roe fishermen. Polluted with disease and readily available all over our province, at every fish farm. Not to mention the cross contamination and disease that can be spread by wild roe being disperesed into our steelies mouthes. Food for thought for all the gut slingers out there.

 

[seadna]

Jesse - I wonder if much virus or bacteria could survive in eggs that go through the standard cures that most use. I would suspect that the borax/salt cures would significantly lower the viability of anything that might be carried in an egg cluster. Also, most guys' eggs are from salmon caught in the wild. For your theory to hold weight, we'd have to believe that a significant fraction of those fish are diseased, that the disease is harbored in the eggs, that the disease carrier survives the curing and refrigeration process that most eggs experience prior to be used as bait and that the disease is transmissible via ingestion of the eggs. I'm not saying it can't happen, it just seems to be that there's a lot of unknown and perhaps unlikely biology that has to be investigated/proven for your theory to be correct.

 

[rockdog]

1st post? There's a lot of these 1st posters showing up lately defending salmon farms or trying to deflect attention. It's pretty obvious where they are coming from.....

 

[Dave]

1st post? There's a lot of these 1st posters showing up lately defending salmon farms or trying to deflect attention. It's pretty obvious where they are coming from.....

Didn't sound like Jesse B was defending salmon farms to me, that's my job ... careful, Jesse, you may be called a troll, lol!

 

[Jesse B.]

Thanks for the reply seadna. I've found alot of bags last year on a local river that had come right off the dock. Summer steelhead, wild and being poached. The ones responsible are truly pathetic and there is concern that some of this roe is infected or carring virus. I am no virus specialist but the fact that there are farm salmon sea pens that do have massive and sometimes total wipe out of stock due to virul outbreak it would seam liklely that some of this will spread around. Herring are tranmitters and carriers too and they are always swimming in and out of pens. I would like to know what can be killed with salting and borax and if we are risking creation of a super bug. Every one becomes there own little science experiment. With so many seapens in our waters our fish are probably already carreing. No grammer ****'s please I can't find the spell check!