Sea Lice and Fish Farms

[fogged in]

Just went over a linked report by Marty. Seems he was a bit off in the bullets.http://marineharvest.ca/globalasset...rus-prv-information-sheet_gary-marty_2013.pdf

I picked this up from your link terrin....

August 6, 2013
Dr. Gary Marty says…
In BC, PRV is common in farmed Atlantic salmon and farmed Pacific salmon, but HSMI does not occur in BC.
As part of my work as the fish pathologist for the BC Ministry of Agriculture, I examine hundreds of salmon that die on the fish farms every year. I am very interested in finding new diseases (that’s one reason I was hired), but so far we don’t seem to have HSMI in BC

reported on Sunday Dec. 3, 2017 Amy Smart.
Dr. Gary Marty stated 1 – 3 Atlantics per 1,000 have HSMI since 2006

This is just plain disgusting that Dr. Marty can get away with lying!
Sorry...this should really be under Fish Farms in trouble in B.C.

 

[agentaqua]

I am unsure that you actually read that paper, bones: Why do you think Simon Jones stopped his study before most of the lice on his fish got big enough to harm the salmon?

p.136: "...most parasites on fish that died following laboratory exposures had not developed beyond the chalimusIV stage."

Crickets...

 

[bones]

Yup still waiting for you to answer the question..... Nothin?
How many?

 

[bones]

Crickets....
You said 7.5 was the wrong number... What's the right number? Use the avg weight in your studies or the study you rejected...
Basically looking for your baseline for smolt mortality in the Broughton area. You cant say they kill salmon and then choose to not back up your statement...... I have.

 

[fogged in]

Crickets....
You said 7.5 was the wrong number... What's the right number? Use the avg weight in your studies or the study you rejected...
Basically looking for your baseline for smolt mortality in the Broughton area. You cant say they kill salmon and then choose to not back up your statement...... I have.

There is NO END of research world wide Bones that prove beyond any doubt that Sea Lice kill Smolts. Some of it has been posted before and even the Fish Farms themselves acknowledge Sea Lice kill smolts and the fact that Sea Lice are concentrated around the majority of Fish Farms.
Your question demanding to know numbers and ratios is nonsense.

 

[bones]

So your saying???? 1 smolt will kill a salmon?
So the burden is 1????
You know that's ********.......
If its been said before then answering the question should be relatively easy and yet still no answer

 

[fogged in]

So your saying???? 1 smolt will kill a salmon?
So the burden is 1????

What does it matter...one, two, three or more
The fact is Sea Lice which is often concentrated around Fish Farms DO KILL WILD SMOLTS.
Why would anyone want to debate the number?

 

[bones]

It does matter... Because sealice have been there in high concentrations for longer than the farms. You need a baseline so when you sample 500 pieces and count the loading you have some form of comparison. Then you will know if your samples are near death loading or just holding sealice naturally....sealice are in the Broughton because of wild salmon.....wild smolts carry them naturally, I'm asking when does it become unnatural? When will it carry enough to die?

You've been looking at pictures from activists and they tell you this is bad.....
I'm simply asking how bad?

 

[fogged in]

It does matter... Because sealice have been there in high concentrations for longer than the farms.

It has been proven Sea Lice are found in larger concentrations then under normal circumstances in and around most Fish Farms with the exception of a few on the West Coast of V.I.

 

[agentaqua]

bones, as it has been posted before on this thread - and others - and as FI pointed-out - sea lice kill juvie salmon.

Yes - there is a debate on exactly how much to use as a metric (an estimate) for estimating mortality. It depends on the number of lice - the stages of lice - the size/weight - and maybe the species of fish. Lots of things to consider.

I find the assumption that one can use Jones work w/o looking at these details - and pull a magic "7.5 lice" out of the air - very disingenuous.

Let me explain: If I was using an analogy of "how many tigers does it take to kill a human" - yes - one could lead a camera team to a petting zoo - and record kids getting licked to death by tiger kitties/cubs. maybe one or 2 might get a skinned knee - or maybe a rash on their face from getting licked - but you really aren't estimating mortality using the right metrics. It'd take a sh*tload of tiger babies to cause any real trouble - but it could be done I am guessing.

The Romans used to throw real human slaves into the ring and bet on how long it would take a slave to die. The tigers were actually capable of killing a human.

That's the kind of difference between reporting on mortality caused by the attached chalimus stages verses motile lice. Lots of info available on this point.

So - the question still remains, bones: "Why do you think Simon Jones stopped his study before most of the lice on his fish got big enough to harm the salmon?"

We are not dealing with unintelligent nor uninformed people here. I am assuming Jones knew the assumptions underlying his research.

I am also assuming you do too - which is why you want me to generate an answer about the C1, C2,C3, C4 stages. That's why I consider the assumption about the 7.5 lice mortality trigger disingenuous.

Yes - maybe a smolt can take up to 7.5 (average) chalimus stages (i.e. NON-MOTILE) stages before the cubs lick it do death.

That's not what was shown in the picture that Terrin provided. very clearly there were at least 3 MOTILE lice - and maybe more. At least 3 tigers - not cubs.

I repeat - you need to know the weight of the host fish to estimate potential mortality by the tigers.

 

[bones]

Nobody is arguing that point......we all know and agree the lice in Broughton is high
It's a natural thing there brought on by returning pink salmon. Amplified in and around fish farms.... Just asking how much???

They will never answer the question fogged in. It locks them into a number that cant be used against them. If a 7g smolt dies at ???? Say... 4 lice. When test ing waters and loading only comes in at 1.4 then.... Where's the problem??? If i read a paper that says 7.5 lice is the limit for loading on a smolt. Then a member says ******** your wrong....but doesn't respond with an answer who is really wrong? I post numbers they post pictures

 

[spopadyn]

Pictures say a thousand words. This smolt is toast thanks to hanging around a poorly sited Fish Farm. All his buddy's were toast too. Now figure out why they are not returning.

http://www.conservationmagazine.org/2008/07/salmon-farms-create-deadly-clouds-of-sea-lice/

You should at least site the magazine where you took this image. Hopefully Fogged In will call you out for using really old information. Really Terrin, now you need to do the walk of shame.....

 

[fogged in]

When I stated the Cohen report was tabled in 2012 the point was that there has been an enormous of science since that time.
If all the current information, studies and science was available at the time the Cohen Commission was reviewing information it would have had a significant influence on their conclusions and recommendations!
Why would I expect you Fish Farm guys to understand this logic??
And why would anyone try and have an intelligent discussion with some of you Fish Farm guys?

 

[Dave]

http://www.conservationmagazine.org/2008/07/salmon-farms-create-deadly-clouds-of-sea-lice/

You should at least site the magazine where you took this image. Hopefully Fogged In will call you out for using really old information. Really Terrin, now you need to do the walk of shame.....

So Almo took this photograph ... she wouldn't stage that pic, would she? No, not Almo.
Thanks spopadyn, that photo has been bothering me for years, now I know why.

 

[bigdogeh]

So Almo took this photograph ... she wouldn't stage that pic, would she? No, not Almo.
Thanks spopadyn, that photo has been bothering me for years, now I know why.

lol, that's all you got Dave? spopy? try to discredit the researcher or say that pics are staged? The person who Marine Harvest tried to take to court because she took a teaspoon full of seagull poop off a float from one of their wharves? They must really hate the work she's doing.
Are those bloodpipe pics staged? Are those fish farm die off pics staged also? Is this what your arguments and debates have come down too? lol,
thxs for the link spopadyn... pretty good read imo...
Why Terrin needs to walk the walk of shame is beyond me. Maybe it's the ones protecting the Farmed Mush at the wild Salmons expense that should be thinking about taking the walk...

 

[Dave]

I told you, the agent has made me a skeptic. I believe he said skepticism was a good thing

 

[bigdogeh]

I told you, the agent has made me a skeptic. I believe he said skepticism was a good thing

The philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer declared, "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
That third stage is waiting for you Dave... There's still a chance to redeem youself...

 

[bones]

bones, as it has been posted before on this thread - and others - and as FI pointed-out - sea lice kill juvie salmon.

Yes - there is a debate on exactly how much to use as a metric (an estimate) for estimating mortality. It depends on the number of lice - the stages of lice - the size/weight - and maybe the species of fish. Lots of things to consider.

I find the assumption that one can use Jones work w/o looking at these details - and pull a magic "7.5 lice" out of the air - very disingenuous.

Let me explain: If I was using an analogy of "how many tigers does it take to kill a human" - yes - one could lead a camera team to a petting zoo - and record kids getting licked to death by tiger kitties/cubs. maybe one or 2 might get a skinned knee - or maybe a rash on their face from getting licked - but you really aren't estimating mortality using the right metrics. It'd take a sh*tload of tiger babies to cause any real trouble - but it could be done I am guessing.

The Romans used to throw real human slaves into the ring and bet on how long it would take a slave to die. The tigers were actually capable of killing a human.

That's the kind of difference between reporting on mortality caused by the attached chalimus stages verses motile lice. Lots of info available on this point.

So - the question still remains, bones: "Why do you think Simon Jones stopped his study before most of the lice on his fish got big enough to harm the salmon?"

We are not dealing with unintelligent nor uninformed people here. I am assuming Jones knew the assumptions underlying his research.

I am also assuming you do too - which is why you want me to generate an answer about the C1, C2,C3, C4 stages. That's why I consider the assumption about the 7.5 lice mortality trigger disingenuous.

Yes - maybe a smolt can take up to 7.5 (average) chalimus stages (i.e. NON-MOTILE) stages before the cubs lick it do death.

That's not what was shown in the picture that Terrin provided. very clearly there were at least 3 MOTILE lice - and maybe more. At least 3 tigers - not cubs.

I repeat - you need to know the weight of the host fish to estimate potential mortality by the tigers.

All the information you are looking for is listed in the marine harvest report including 7.5 death by loading. You call ********.
What's the numbers?
Do the math..... Apparently we cant. You said i cant add. So add it up.
Everything is measurable including how much damage fish farms do on wild stocks.....

Again how much or many fish are killed by fish farms?

I can stand here and say 80% of out going Chinook smolts are eaten by seals. I can also show these numbers on paper and yet there are no dead smolts to see. Now its your turn.........youd better not say its 50% again

 

[GLG]

Everything is measurable including how much damage fish farms do on wild stocks.....

Again how much or many fish are killed by fish farms?

Can you suggest a way to count the dead wild smolts after they have been infected by sea lice as they pass by the fish farms? Make sure that you separate the dead ones by how many sea lice are on them. While you're at it find a way to count the live ones that make it through and follow them till they return to spawn as adults and show that they did not die prespawn. Please break that number down by how many sea lice were on them when they were a smolt passing by the fish farms.

Question to others...... has anyone ever seen an adult salmon that clearly showed sea lice damage (healed scar) as a smolt? I have seen thousands of adult salmon and have seen some weird things but never seen what might look like sea lice damage except of course the damage that we all see in adults behind the butt.

That's going to leave a scar.....

 

[bones]

Ya I dunno glg but it is under study by the government, maybe because independent researchers cannot. You should be able to refuse the science next year when it is released