Lets not forget about the Alaskan Trawl Fishery either. They have taken up to 40,000 (2007) pieces of Chinook annually, but average about 20K. Those Chinook would be mostly river-type verses ocean-type Chinook, and a substantial proportion of BC hatchery Chinook make-up the "non-wild" proportion of that catch. The Canadian wild component most likely affected would be the Yukon River Chinooks, as far as bycatch in the Alaskan trawl fishery. The observer coverage has been increasing and the bycatch decreasing in the past 3 years or so for the Alaskan trawl fishery - but some of the Chinook stock trend downturn could be attributed to these trawl fisheries (esp. the pollock fishery), as well as any aquaculture effects and sportsfishing activity. I believe that the ocean-type WCVI Chinook stocks would be the most likely impacted by the open net-cage industry, along with any ocean-type Chinook that travel and forage through the Discovery Islands and the Broughtons.
Salmon farms harming wild salmon 60 minutes - cbs
- Thread starter sammyslabber
- Start date
ClayoquotKid
Active Member
Evidence?
That study is based on 8 fish found 15 years ago, and a model which assumes Westcoast farms lose fish like Eastcoast farms do (leakage), as well as calling us liars in reference to reporting escapes.
In addition to that, it assumes that because they sampled rivers multiple times and didn't find Atlantics every time (imperfect detection, or "false absences") , that there was a justification to model the presence of Atlantics in all similar habitats on the coast.
This "invasion" is theoretical, alarmist, and entirely based on a political tactic to create fear, uncertainty and doubt about adding any more farms to the coast - full stop.
SpringVelocity
Crew Member
Yes but DFO did find them. Do you agree with that statement?
ClayoquotKid
Active Member
You'd have to ask DFO, I don't work for DFO - Although I will say that if these guys http://www.npafc.org/new/publications/Documents/PDF 2012/1431(Canada).pdf saw any Atlantic salmon in the rivers they assessed, they would have most likely noted it.
It is no secret that escaped Atlantic salmon have been found in rivers in BC, what was apparently discovered and then strangely abandoned was a feral population in the Tsitika River.
Volpe's original paper claimed to have found 4 S0, and 8 S1 Atlantics (by scale growth observation), and in his own abstract stated, "We present evidence of the first successful natural spawning of Atlantic salmon (Salmon salar) documented on the Pacific coast of North America."
Wow. A groundbreaking discovery - that was never followed up on, or confirmed in any way.
He now, some 15 years later, uses the same data to create a paper fanning the flames of the salmon aquaculture debate - strikingly similar to something he already created for Suzuki http://dspace.cigilibrary.org/jspui... Unnatural Atlantic Salmon in BC Waters.pdf?1
The main thing to focus on here is this - the "invasion" isn't real, it is modeled using data collected before the year 2000, and it's conclusions are not in any way supported by what is actually seen by those swimming the rivers.
Just because DFO doesn't share everything it has on Atlantic salmon reporting, it does not mean they are everywhere.
Just because you don't think that the industry can have 0 escapes in a year, it doesn't mean you're right.
This is a classic case of "science" being used to prop up a political argument - here being the argument against regulators moving forward with responsible, sustainable growth of the BC salmon aquaculture industry, where opponents lack any quantifiable, credible scientific evidence and must resort to fearmongering through models based on assumptions instead of what is seen in reality.
no - I wouldn't expect feral Atlantic salmon juvies "everywhere". I wouldn't expect to see them driving SUVs or flying. I would, however - expect to potentially see them in rivers adjacent to the open net-cage industry - rivers that have suppressed steelhead populations in similar stretches of river that support steelhead fry.
So far DFO is mum on what they did, why they did what they did, and what they found. They seem to forget they are public servants working on a public resource - and that the results and methodology should be open to the public - at all times. The guy to complain to is:
Byron Andres
Senior Biologist
Aquaculture Environmental Operations
Fisheries Management
Fisheries and Oceans Canada
1520 Tamarac Street
Campbell River, B.C.
V9W 3M5
Byron.Andres@dfo-mpo.gc.ca
Telephone 250-286-5821
Facsimile 250-286-5837
I would encourage - challenge even - all those interested in trying to get answers from him. Let us know how it goes on this forum. See if you get the excel spreadsheet on what they found - or even info on why they chose the watersheds they swam or snorkeled, who funded the work, how long of a survey did they do in each watershed, how did they select the areas to snorkel, what was the visibility in these creeks? Did they look at steelhead numbers? All that stuff.
Reporting of Escapees is done voluntary by each farm. There is no 3rd party monitoring like observers in the commercial fishery. ok - lets try to put this into perspective:
What would happen if the RCMP stopped checking for speeders? What is there was a box outside the RCMP station where you submitted your name and the place you were speeding and how much you were over the limit? In return - you got a fine.
Think that would be an effective measure to generate speeding statistics for the province?
BUT - it's an effective strategy to generate data on escapees? HUH?
Last edited by a moderator:
ClayoquotKid
Active Member
DFO isn't the only one doing stream walks and swims.
Adult Atlantic spawning pairs would have to be present before any feral juveniles - interesting in all of this there hasn't been any mention of that...
These are imaginary fish, much like the escaped ones you assume go unreported - which, by the way, is quite insulting to me and my colleagues.
wishiniwasfishin1
Well-Known Member
My biggest thing is that the government is playing science with our coast. Raising slamon in net pens on our coasts is foolish. In a lot of ways.
There are a many many examples where this sort of aquaculture has had devastating results. The potential risks of them getting their experiment wrong are massive.
Farmers are devaluing the worth of salmon by selling it dirt cheap to everyone in the world. The price of the farmed salmon does not take into account the costs of making it on the ecosystem from the ground up fish they are fed to the waters they pollute.
At lease if they want to grow this crap they should be forced to do it in a way that reduces the risk to wild populations. The profits being made are massive, so why shouldn't that money be put into making the product safer?
Is there any legislation that BC could enact to remove them from our waters? Or would that have to be federally mandated?
There are a many many examples where this sort of aquaculture has had devastating results. The potential risks of them getting their experiment wrong are massive.
Farmers are devaluing the worth of salmon by selling it dirt cheap to everyone in the world. The price of the farmed salmon does not take into account the costs of making it on the ecosystem from the ground up fish they are fed to the waters they pollute.
At lease if they want to grow this crap they should be forced to do it in a way that reduces the risk to wild populations. The profits being made are massive, so why shouldn't that money be put into making the product safer?
Is there any legislation that BC could enact to remove them from our waters? Or would that have to be federally mandated?
ClayoquotKid
Active Member
If John Vople actually had evidence of a feral population of escaped Atlantic salmon living in a BC river I am quite sure he would have made it his life's work to show it.
Given the fact there has never been a documented case of that ever happening, it really would have worked in his favour (in terms of getting rid of salmon farms) to pursue that to the end.
Instead, he wrote a paper about it, and then waited 15 years to use the same data combined with speculative modeling and assumptions, timed perfectly to coincide with a potential period of growth for the industry, which creates a scenario where people can say, "Well, we haven't actually seen any - BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY AREN'T THERE."
There wasn't ever an established population discovered when we had lots of escapes, and the chances of it happening now when we have very few are even less.
Fearmongering and political maneuvering at its best.
Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt - FUD
An activist's best weapon when they find themselves in a position entirely unsupported by evidence.
Given the fact there has never been a documented case of that ever happening, it really would have worked in his favour (in terms of getting rid of salmon farms) to pursue that to the end.
Instead, he wrote a paper about it, and then waited 15 years to use the same data combined with speculative modeling and assumptions, timed perfectly to coincide with a potential period of growth for the industry, which creates a scenario where people can say, "Well, we haven't actually seen any - BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY AREN'T THERE."
There wasn't ever an established population discovered when we had lots of escapes, and the chances of it happening now when we have very few are even less.
Fearmongering and political maneuvering at its best.
Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt - FUD
An activist's best weapon when they find themselves in a position entirely unsupported by evidence.
ClayoquotKid
Active Member
Did I just see a post about someone witnessing unreported escapes at a farm?
Care to back that up with any details?
What farm? When? What company?
Or, are you just going to delete it and pretend it never happened?
Care to back that up with any details?
What farm? When? What company?
Or, are you just going to delete it and pretend it never happened?
Bang on. To all the anti's out there ... who has evidence of any adult Atlantic spawners in BC? As most all streams are fished, and fished heavily, who has seen one?
Personally, I know of one caught in a FN fishery near Yale on the Fraser River, about 15 years ago. I saw the fish, about 15 lbs and it was gorgeous.
If I remember correctly - Volpe had to create a stream in a gravel pit to look at the interactions between the Atlantic juvies and the steelhead directly.
Yes - those evil "activists" CK. Once there were evil commies under every brush ready to leap-out and destroy the almighty stock market and the jobs and the promised land. Now it's the "activists" dum-dum-da-dum!
Well being "active" in governance issues and politics is the basis of democracy. You remember? The reason why millions of our soldiers died in WWI and WWII was to protect democracy against fascism? I think I will honour their sacrifice and also be "active" in how our resources are manged - thank you very much. Too bad that that position challenges you and your industry CK.
By-the-way - I see you ignored my perspective on self-reporting of escapees. Just avoided that topic entirely , eh? Too much of a hot potato for you CK?
ClayoquotKid
Active Member
Anything I say about self-reporting you will dismiss due to your bias against "industry", so what's the point?
You can't seem to see the companies for the individual BC residents that make them.
I see you also avoided addressing my point about Volpe pursuing the evidence of a feral population by mentioning how hard he worked to research interactions.
Seems to me that proving their existence in the wild would be more important than hypothesizing interactions that may rarely actually occur - no?
Or, does creating a scenario do more for the creation of FUD than actually confirming whether escaped farmed Atlantics were establishing populations in BC?
You are an anonymous poster, so I'm going to disregard the rest - Although I will say you have proven to be a truly special character in this forum.
ClayoquotKid
Active Member
Hey, "AgentAqua" - Were you at this? Was one of these folks you?
http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/...anadas-anti-oil-regulars/3560461869001/page/2
http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/...anadas-anti-oil-regulars/3560461869001/page/2
Cuba Libre
Well-Known Member
Never heard of reported atlantics in fresh water CK??????
I have seen them my self ----Phillips river broodstocking..... I also had 4 other reports of Atlantics from the Salmon River... Talk to the guys at River Sportsman if you doubt this
I have seen them my self ----Phillips river broodstocking..... I also had 4 other reports of Atlantics from the Salmon River... Talk to the guys at River Sportsman if you doubt this
Last edited by a moderator:
DVL U Know
Member
My problem with the farming is that it does nothing for me. I mean I see no money from it and it potential(so say for sure) hurts something I care about; wild salmon. So why would I be OK with it? Also the ratio of protein in for lb of protein out is horribly askew...what I mean for every pound of farmed fish you get you have to feed it 35 lbs of other fish...or teach it to love corn...that's got to be good for it. So why? Why should i be OK with it.
Same goes for big oil pipelines...more tanker traffic...I think they will erode fragile intertidal zones...or kill spotted owls or something! Even if they only sink one Oli tanker ever hundred years...that's going to screw with my fishing...just so China can have our oil...so someone in Alberta can drive a shinier truck....nope.
Same goes for big oil pipelines...more tanker traffic...I think they will erode fragile intertidal zones...or kill spotted owls or something! Even if they only sink one Oli tanker ever hundred years...that's going to screw with my fishing...just so China can have our oil...so someone in Alberta can drive a shinier truck....nope.
I'm not doubting it .. can you remember when you saw these fish?
ClayoquotKid
Active Member
Thank you, "DVL U Know", I appreciate your contribution to the debate.
ClayoquotKid
Active Member
If anyone can let me know where I may have missed the "Atlantic Invasion" here, please let me know: http://www.bccf.com/steelhead/stock-assessment.htm
"For rivers like the upper Gold, Heber and Tsitika rivers, there are more than 20 consecutive years of summer steelhead snorkel counts, using the same methods and many of the same crew members. There are from 10-15 years of steelhead escapement counts for another six streams, and 5-10 years of escapement observations for about another 10 streams."
"For rivers like the upper Gold, Heber and Tsitika rivers, there are more than 20 consecutive years of summer steelhead snorkel counts, using the same methods and many of the same crew members. There are from 10-15 years of steelhead escapement counts for another six streams, and 5-10 years of escapement observations for about another 10 streams."
Sun News and Ezra? Thats your rebuttal? I wish I could say I was surprised CK. It demonstrates your lack of understanding and sincerity over legitimate concerns. Maybe you have a picture of Rob Ford hanging in your home?
Similar threads
