N.S. fish farm rejected: risk to wild salmon.

[Dave]

Agent, how could further samples have been taken from those fish? Remember, that sampling was done by me... those fish were composting a few hours after death and the results Molly reported were much later. Taking samples from later year sockeye would have proved nothing.
But further samples have been taken from Cultus Lake looking for evidence of ISA ... whatever happened regarding the cutthroat trout Craig Orr claimed tested positive for ISAv? It made a big media splash at the time but seems to have disappeared.

 

[agentaqua]

Agent, how could further samples have been taken from those fish? Remember, that sampling was done by me... those fish were composting a few hours after death and the results Molly reported were much later. Taking samples from later year sockeye would have proved nothing.
But further samples have been taken from Cultus Lake looking for evidence of ISA ... whatever happened regarding the cutthroat trout Craig Orr claimed tested positive for ISAv? It made a big media splash at the time but seems to have disappeared.

you pretty much answered your own question, dave. you can't successfully retest decayed samples, but you can get new ones. if the disease is now endemic to a watershed - it should show-up in the resident salmonids.

 

[Dave]

I think you meant to say if the virus is now endemic blah, blah .... right?

 

[agentaqua]

was wondering if you were going to p/u on that...yes - if the disease-causing organism (i.e. new and emerging ISA or ISA-like virus)..blah, blah, blah

 

[agentaqua]

Further on the rebuttal to the “the reason we told nobody and hid the results since we couldn't confirm the test results, or the Canucks game was on, or I had to do my nails”:

1/ Inclusion into the OIE reporting network is a MINIMUM verses a MAXIMUM of what needs to be done,
2/ Canada's inclusion into the OIE reporting procedures does not relieve any government employees or the government of Canada of their responsibilities to the constituents and/or taxpayers,
3/ Canada's inclusion into the OIE reporting procedures does not relieve any federal employee or politician of their responsibility and inclusion into the laws of Canada,
4/ Canada's inclusion into the OIE reporting procedures does not fetter the federal government's fiduciary duties to First Nations, including open consultation made in good faith,
5/ Canada's inclusion into the OIE reporting procedures does not fetter any scientist in Canada from publishing any results whether or not they are preliminary or not.

 

[Dave]

was wondering if you were going to p/u on that...yes - if the disease-causing organism (i.e. new and emerging ISA or ISA-like virus)..blah, blah, blah

Not only are you arrogant, add condescending to your resume but that’s OK as I have experienced and expect that from people I consider intelligent. Think Tony Farrell, lol!
Come back with something relevant, like Orr’s Cultus Lake cutthroat trout viral assay.
Go Canucks

 

[agentaqua]

if I had it I would post it. Maybe those results will yet pop-out in a peer-review journal in press.

Thought that was DFO's job to monitor disease organisms in wild stocks. why did Orr have to be the one to test the resident salmonids when DFO already had and subsequently hid the ISA results from that watershed? Why didn't DFO take the initiative? Good Canucks game on?

 

[agentaqua]

So, you mean you think I'm being unreasonable expecting a guy with a PhD to understand what an average is? Hmmm...

'Chair in Sustainable Aquaculture at the Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) and UBC Centre for Aquaculture and Environmental Research (CAER) Basic research projects examine the cardiac and respiratory physiology of fish and how these systems respond to environmental challenges such as exercise, temperature and low oxygen.

Basic research is also being applied to the needs of the aquaculture industry.

Director: Anthony P. Farrell, Ph.D., Professor"
http://www.landfood.ubc.ca/research/research-chairs

 

[Dave]

Maybe those results will yet pop-out in a peer-review journal in press.
Good Canucks game on?

If those results were publishable we would have seen them. You know that. Give up.

1 -1 in the 3rd

 

[Swingin Dick]

I call B.S that Nova Scotia's regulations will be any different than B.C's. Its a free for all and if there are any problems ,mums the word. Its no different than any industry, what has to be reported will but if its not reportable it won't . Government guidlines are a way of easing the pain of industry by creating flawed regulations. I can't import an exotic fish and put it in a lake but they can bring in some atlantic salmon and have escapement and its the same old story, well they are not aclimatized to the pacific enviroment and will never spawn. Its all a joke.

To all the fishfarmers that are here an trying to promote their industry, I believe you are hardworking people, you deserve your jobs and I would hate for anyone to face a job loss(not that you will). Its the governmnet regulations, governments ignoring facts and covering up anything that may harm the bottom line of offshore owned corporations. Its no different than the oilsands, forestry or even comercial fishing. The governments attitude is we are a nation of natural resources lets exploit it as fast as we can, who gives a crap about our future. When they could require a sustainable way of doing things but at a cost to industry.

Why have fish farms on a wild salmons migration route? If there is even a doubt about a wild salmons health because of this, move the farm. But that will cost a corporation money and time.

If the government said today all farms need to be closed containment, the industry would go to closed containment, construction of them would start tomorrow(well not literally) and all the worker on the open cage farms would have jobs, get more skills training and would be home more instead of being on a floating house in the middle of nowhere.

Its evolution and every industry goes thru it, you think pulp mills of today are the same as they were 30 years ago???Air emmisions, effluent??
Why would your industry be different, it needs to evolve and the government is the only one to make it happen and thats what people like me and so many others are pissed at.

Agreed, its just political mumbo jumbo. Bla, bla, bla.

 

[agentaqua]

If those results were publishable we would have seen them. You know that. Give up.

I agree that the results SHOULD be published. I'd like to see the results, too. BUT - just because they don't get published does not mean they are unpublishable.

It also takes some months - years even at times - to write-up an article and get it published.

And as "arrogant" and "condescending" as my alter ego is - I do not presume to have the arrogance to know what is being submitted to various editors in the potentially dozens of peer-reviewed journals across the globe.

What about your alter ego, Dave? Do you know what is being submitted to the journals across the globe?

 

[agentaqua]

Further to CK's claim that fish health data and oversight is "adequate":

http://www.timescolonist.com/sports/fish-farms-allied-with-government-activists-say-1.146182

Fish farms allied with government, activists say

Judith Lavoie / Times Colonist
May 4, 2013

ItÍs official: The Pacific salmon has been proclaimed the B.C.Ís fish symbol. Photograph by: via AFP/Getty Images

In the ongoing skirmishes between salmon farmers and environmental groups, fish farmers appear to have a powerful ally in the provincial government, says Wilderness Committee campaigner Torrance Coste.

A Wilderness Committee freedom-of-information request to the provincial Agriculture Ministry, asking for information on disease outbreaks on salmon farms between 2010 and 2012, produced 300 pages of emails and memos, many documenting communications strategies after diseases are discovered on farms.

Emails from Gary Marty, ministry fish pathologist at the Animal Health Centre, ask company veterinarians for the go-ahead to release specific information about the outbreaks to media.

“May I have permission to disclose information from the medical records about the two Mainstream outbreaks,” says an email from Marty to Mainstream Canada veterinarian Peter McKenzie.

“If you want to provide partial permission, let me know and I can work around that. Otherwise, I will stick to information provided in the press releases.”

“I believe the release serves as good evidence of a very concerning relationship between the Ministry of Agriculture, who are supposed to be a neutral monitoring and oversight body, and the fish farming industry,” Coste said of the information found in the FOI.

However, Mary Ellen Walling, B.C. Salmon Farmers Association executive director, said the documents show a good working relationship between the industry and government, especially after infectious haematopoetic necrosis (IHN) was discovered at Grieg Seafood and Mainstream Canada farms.

“I think those pages show a good level of co-operation, a high level of transparency and a lot of public outreach,” she said.

Coste, referring to the email from Marty, said he finds it alarming that ministry staff are asking for permission before releasing information that should be public.

“This information pertains to disease outbreaks on private, open-net fish farms located in the ocean environment — a public entity,” he said.

“The presence of pathogens and viruses in the ocean and the discovery of these diseases by government scientists should always be public knowledge, and the fact that our scientists are seeking permission from industry to release this public knowledge is very worrisome.”

IHN, which is endemic in wild Pacific salmon but does not make them sick, can kill Atlantic salmon.

Walling said the request for permission was professional courtesy between veterinarians and the companies had already released information about the outbreaks.

A statement from the agriculture ministry said the ministry works with the “federal government and aquaculture operators to monitor for all possible diseases and supports the implementation of a prompt, co-ordinated and science-based response when required.”

Fisheries and Oceans Canada is responsible for overall regulation of salmon farms.

“The [agriculture] ministry has no statutory authority to compel samples from fish farms for diagnostic analysis. All submissions from the farms for diagnostic testing are voluntary,” says the ministry statement.

jlavoie@timescolonist.com

© Copyright 2013

Guess I'm not the only one who noticed the inadequacy...

 

[Englishman]

“The [agriculture] ministry has no statutory authority to compel samples from fish farms for diagnostic analysis. All submissions from the farms for diagnostic testing are voluntary,” says the ministry statement.

jlavoie@timescolonist.com

© Copyright 2013

Guess I'm not the only one who noticed the inadequacy...

And that statement right there from the Ministry says it all. Not only does this arrogant feed lot industry squat across a public resource, the open ocean, but it considers itself the "Big Brother" who deigns to allow public access to the disease data from it's farms, as and when it pleases.
And we the government and the public allow it!
If they are occupying a public resource all fish feed lots should be forced to provide samples and disclose all disease results as a condition of occupancy. It is OUR resource not theirs!
This industry is like a socially depraved gangsta, strutting around giving the orders like a villain on the mean streets. Such behaviour has no place on the public streets and it has no place on the public ocean!!

 

[agentaqua]

“I think those pages show a good level of co-operation, a high level of transparency and a lot of public outreach,” Walling said.

Transparency...."public" outreach...after the wilderness committe had to do an FOI.

Talk about spin - makes me dizzy...

 

[Charlie]

Yep... "And we the government and the public allow it!"

 

[ClayoquotKid]

Further to CK's claim that fish health data and oversight is "adequate":

http://www.timescolonist.com/sports/fish-farms-allied-with-government-activists-say-1.146182

Fish farms allied with government, activists say

Judith Lavoie / Times Colonist
May 4, 2013

ItÍs official: The Pacific salmon has been proclaimed the B.C.Ís fish symbol. Photograph by: via AFP/Getty Images

In the ongoing skirmishes between salmon farmers and environmental groups, fish farmers appear to have a powerful ally in the provincial government, says Wilderness Committee campaigner Torrance Coste.

A Wilderness Committee freedom-of-information request to the provincial Agriculture Ministry, asking for information on disease outbreaks on salmon farms between 2010 and 2012, produced 300 pages of emails and memos, many documenting communications strategies after diseases are discovered on farms.

Emails from Gary Marty, ministry fish pathologist at the Animal Health Centre, ask company veterinarians for the go-ahead to release specific information about the outbreaks to media.

“May I have permission to disclose information from the medical records about the two Mainstream outbreaks,” says an email from Marty to Mainstream Canada veterinarian Peter McKenzie.

“If you want to provide partial permission, let me know and I can work around that. Otherwise, I will stick to information provided in the press releases.”

“I believe the release serves as good evidence of a very concerning relationship between the Ministry of Agriculture, who are supposed to be a neutral monitoring and oversight body, and the fish farming industry,” Coste said of the information found in the FOI.

However, Mary Ellen Walling, B.C. Salmon Farmers Association executive director, said the documents show a good working relationship between the industry and government, especially after infectious haematopoetic necrosis (IHN) was discovered at Grieg Seafood and Mainstream Canada farms.

“I think those pages show a good level of co-operation, a high level of transparency and a lot of public outreach,” she said.

Coste, referring to the email from Marty, said he finds it alarming that ministry staff are asking for permission before releasing information that should be public.

“This information pertains to disease outbreaks on private, open-net fish farms located in the ocean environment — a public entity,” he said.

“The presence of pathogens and viruses in the ocean and the discovery of these diseases by government scientists should always be public knowledge, and the fact that our scientists are seeking permission from industry to release this public knowledge is very worrisome.”

IHN, which is endemic in wild Pacific salmon but does not make them sick, can kill Atlantic salmon.

Walling said the request for permission was professional courtesy between veterinarians and the companies had already released information about the outbreaks.

A statement from the agriculture ministry said the ministry works with the “federal government and aquaculture operators to monitor for all possible diseases and supports the implementation of a prompt, co-ordinated and science-based response when required.”

Fisheries and Oceans Canada is responsible for overall regulation of salmon farms.

“The [agriculture] ministry has no statutory authority to compel samples from fish farms for diagnostic analysis. All submissions from the farms for diagnostic testing are voluntary,” says the ministry statement.

jlavoie@timescolonist.com

© Copyright 2013

Guess I'm not the only one who noticed the inadequacy...

Seems to me they are talking about the IHN outbreak that was posted on the Mainstream website: http://www.mainstreamcanada.ca/mainstream-canada-farm-north-tofino-tests-positive-ihn-virus

It was found on the 14th and there was a press release out the next day - to the public, with details, followed by the lab report which confirmed the virus.

The farm was emptied of fish by the end of the week: http://www.mainstreamcanada.ca/mainstream-canada-dixon-bay-ihn-update-depopulating-site

Does that seem like an inadequate fish health monitoring and communication effort?

The DFO took over from the Province after Morton's case caused the regulation to go Federal - you can't have it both ways.

Just because the Wilderness Committee decides to do an FOI and gets a whole whack of emails containing discussion between the Province and industry you guys seem to think there is a whole conspiracy going on?

Seems strange the only thing to come out all of that was one where Dr. Marty asks to provide more details (when the company already put the whole thing on the website) - as a regulatory body who is not in charge of aquaculture.

I guess if that is the worst to come out of 300 emails over two years you're going to need to blow it up in the press to justify the FOI.

 

[agentaqua]

The DFO took over from the Province after Morton's case caused the regulation to go Federal - you can't have it both ways.

Wanna expand a little on what you are trying to relay here, CK?

 

[ClayoquotKid]

Wanna expand a little on what you are trying to relay here, CK?

Some people weren't happy with the Province regulating aquaculture, and now some aren't happy with DFO doing it.

That was it.

Whatever the industry does will never be sufficient for those who oppose it.

I still think it's funny that from all that info Mr. Coste ran with an email chain where Dr. Marty asked to provide more info on a case where the company posted the lab report.

 

[agentaqua]

The court found that having the province regulate the open net-cage aquaculture industry was unconstitutional, CK.

I think people are unhappy with the degree of collusion between government regulators (no matter whether they be feds or provincial) and the industry; and lack of transparency, accountability and honesty.

Case in point - is the last news article where the government stated that: “The [agriculture] ministry has no statutory authority to compel samples from fish farms for diagnostic analysis. All submissions from the farms for diagnostic testing are voluntary ”

ALL fish health data should be compulsory and publicly available and a prerequisite for tenure (provincially) and operational plans (federally).

 

[ClayoquotKid]

The court found that having the province regulate the open net-cage aquaculture industry was unconstitutional, CK.

I think people are unhappy with the degree of collusion between government regulators (no matter whether they be feds or provincial) and the industry; and lack of transparency, accountability and honesty.

Case in point - is the last news article where the government stated that: “The [agriculture] ministry has no statutory authority to compel samples from fish farms for diagnostic analysis. All submissions from the farms for diagnostic testing are voluntary ”

ALL fish health data should be compulsory and publicly available and a prerequisite for tenure (provincially) and operational plans (federally).

Here is Dr. Marty's rebuttal to Mr. Coste's piece: http://www.timescolonist.com/opinion/letters/salmon-farm-diseases-were-quickly-reported-1.147096

"The article neglects to say that, as a veterinarian, I am prohibited by my professional code of ethics from releasing to the public information contained in confidential medical records — unless I have permission; this is comparable to a doctor or a lawyer prohibited from releasing confidential records."

"Every time I asked, permission was granted."

I think your demands on the aquaculture industry are unreasonable, your perception of the actions, motives and character of the people involved is incorrect and your continued asssertion that farms are harming wild stocks is false.

Turn that level of scrutiny on the sport and commercial sectors and see what kind of reaction you get.

How about individual bycatch records on every license, with totals of all species caught/killed handed in at the end of the season?

You want to debate impacts? Or just poke at what you see as unacceptable from your self-righteous standpoint?

Why don't we calculate how many bleeding shakers are killed every year by all types of fishermen and compare that to ____ wild fish that might realistically pass a farm, pick up a pathogen they don't already have and then subsequently die from it.

(If this is where you say "ISA" - remember that it kills our fish first so we do everything possible to avoid it. Plus the fact it hasn't been shown to effect Pacific stocks in tests: http://www.salmonfarmers.org/sites/default/files/hot-topics/isa.pdf )

(Or if this is where you say "PRV" - don't forget that it is a type of virus that is almost everywhere in the ocean and has never been shown to cause disease in BC: http://www.salmonfarmers.org/sites/default/files/hot-topics/prv_hsmi_2_1.pdf)

(If this is where you say "Mutations and viral evolution" - Well I can't help you there. Maybe you should spend some time on your Zombie kit...)

Why don't we add up the wild Coho or under/over-sized Chinook released every and calculate the expected mortality and then compare the same?

Or how about trying to add up the salmon caught illegally?

There are real and measurable impacts associated with everything when it comes to catching and killing fish - The anti-aquaculture argument relies on supposition, speculation and all manners of personal opinions and perceptions of risk to form their argument against the industry.

When faced with a lack of quantifiable evidence to support those views they fall back on the old, "Well, since no one can find it - you must be hiding it" argument, which in my mind is absurd.

Have you ever thought that salmon farms might not have any measurable negative impacts on wild stocks?

Maybe some people are starting to think that the distinct lack of success in linking wild fluctuations to farmed stocks might mean that they were wrong?

Maybe instead of building a bigger and bigger conspiracy to hide the "truth" you feel is real, you might want to re-think your position.

How many years is this going to go on - the decades are slipping by...