Lets take DFO to court

fish brain

fish brain

Crew Member
DFO has basically shut down the south coast to salmon fishing. Some will argue that there are areas open to fish, but in reality for the majority of us we are sitting at home for most of the summer. April Fools has come and gone with promises of a decision coming soon. And yet we are all just griping about our lost opportunities and hoping that they will follow the SFAB's (who can only advise, thus the A in SFAB) recommendation to allow us a marked select fishery. And still we wait.....And wait........And wait.
I am tired of waiting. The ENGO's have money and lawyers on their side, we have volunteers who give countless hours of their time and need to be recognized for all their hard work. But at the end of the day money talks an BS walks.
I say we hire a legal team to represent the sport fishers of BC. I don't know which organization would be best, or could actually do it, maybe the Public Fishery Alliance? If everyone on the forum ponied up say $500 and we hit up industry, and started a media campaign, maybe we could actually raise enough to mount a credible challenge to DFO/ Ministry of Fisheries to let them know 1) we have had enough 2) we are prepared to fight for our right to fish along with the other stake holders.
So in the spirit of my post I pledge $500.00 to start things off.
Who is in?
What group is prepared to take this to court?
 
ab1752 said:
Govt will slow walk any action put forth til the end of time, or money, unfortunately. It's a rigged game.
Click to expand...
So we should just sell our boats and take up new sports?
 
You know, I rarely post how I feel about our sport fishing restrictions.
No one loves catching them more than I do. I mean it, you might like catching fish just as much as I do, but not more. That feeling.
But, call it brain washing, or uninformed, or ill informed, I can’t help but think that there’s really no downside to the population of salmon on this coast if we stop fishing for a while.
I like to think I’m a decent enough fisherman, but I’ve weeded through slot sizes and hatchery fish and knowingly fed salmon to seals, accidentally left hooks buried deep in lost fish, and accidentally harmed fish while trying to release them. I can’t deny my pressure on the resource even being as careful as I can, and I’ve seen a lot of it around me too.

Also, I can’t think of anyone else the government IS capable of reducing fishing opportunities to besides us.
The consequences of those measures are incredibly hard on the people who depend on sport fishing for a living, many of whom I love and admire. I have no answer for that.
I also don’t want to lose the right to fish for salmon forever, and would submit $500 as per the original post if that’s what everyone thought it would take to keep it. But, what if letting them be for now and concentrating on bringing them back is the thing to do instead? Hard as it is and as much as others could be doing more, if we did our part and applied zero pressure for a while, what would happen? Would it make a big difference? Maybe not.
Would it make a small difference? Maybe, and maybe that’s the threshold now and any difference is enough to make it worthwhile?
I doubt any of us want to tell our grandsons we caught the last ones, or at least I don’t.
 
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Tugcapitan, I admire your willingness to hang up the rod for the betterment of chinook salmon and to do your share. However, your line of thinking is the wrong approach in my opinion. There are no issues with opportunities to fish for chinook species that are not threatened. DFO and so does everyone else who searches for it, has DNA evidence that should allow us to be out fishing...If DFO wont even allow a hatchery fish their arguements about protecting endangered wild stocks of concern are full of ****. The fight here is about the opportunity to enjoy a resource as a citizen of this country...

its plain and simple...until we fight back, whether it be legal challenge, blockades, chain ourselves in front of DFO offices etc... and in large numbers, not just a hundred or 2 people...we need thousands and thosuands, if not tens of thosuands of pissed of comrades... what about rallying all industries directly and indirectly affected such as restaurants, hotels, transportation, lodges, etc..

Instead of donating $500 which may not go far since legal battles can be long and drawn out.... why not spend that money on return airfare to ottawa(which is cheap as hell nowadays), and bang pots and pans outside Bernadette's office? politicians, especially incompentent and lazy ones like Bernadette, do not like to be embarrassed...challenged and put in the spotlight... they want to ride the gravy train on a smooth and uneventful ride...lets make her ride bumpy, full of potholes, jerky and abrupt. Screw letters...they dont do ****... time for action..
 
the butcher said:
Tugcapitan, I admire your willingness to hang up the rod for the betterment of chinook salmon and to do your share. However, your line of thinking is the wrong approach in my opinion. There are no issues with opportunities to fish for chinook species that are not threatened. DFO and so does everyone else who searches for it, has DNA evidence that should allow us to be out fishing...If DFO wont even allow a hatchery fish their arguements about protecting endangered wild stocks of concern are full of ****. The fight here is about the opportunity to enjoy a resource as a citizen of this country...

its plain and simple...until we fight back, whether it be legal challenge, blockades, chain ourselves in front of DFO offices etc... and in large numbers, not just a hundred or 2 people...we need thousands and thosuands, if not tens of thosuands of pissed of comrades... what about rallying all industries directly and indirectly affected such as restaurants, hotels, transportation, lodges, etc..

Instead of donating $500 which may not go far since legal battles can be long and drawn out.... why not spend that money on return airfare to ottawa(which is cheap as hell nowadays), and bang pots and pans outside Bernadette's office? politicians, especially incompentent and lazy ones like Bernadette, do not like to be embarrassed...challenged and put in the spotlight... they want to ride the gravy train on a smooth and uneventful ride...lets make her ride bumpy, full of potholes, jerky and abrupt. Screw letters...they dont do ****... time for action..
Click to expand...
Omg. If you seriously think this cause could get more numbers of passionate people rallying for it than the other side you haven’t been paying attention.
 
Tugcapitan said:
Omg. If you seriously think this cause could get more numbers of passionate people rallying for it than the other side you haven’t been paying attention.
Click to expand...
i never stated we need more people rallying than the other side... i said we need a hell of a lot more people out, pissed off and willing to do something about it than a handful of people showing up to past protests and rallies. If we dont get more numbers than we had in past 2 years we are as good as doomed if we arent already there.
 
the butcher said:
i never stated we need more people rallying than the other side... i said we need a hell of a lot more people out, pissed off and willing to do something about it than a handful of people showing up to past protests and rallies. If we dont get more numbers than we had in past 2 years we are as good as doomed if we arent already there.
Click to expand...
Exactly.
Not. Happening.
 
Tugcapitan said:
Omg. If you seriously think this cause could get more numbers of passionate people rallying for it than the other side you haven’t been paying attention.
Click to expand...
Another time and situation, perhaps. However, at this time too many people are completely sidetracked with this plandemic bs and not paying attention to what Trudeau is quietly slipping in. Universal basic income, undrip, low mortgage rates with a killer clause carbon tax and govt censorship of social media and the internet. Does anyone even care about these things? That is what will change our lives. Fishing could seem pretty insignificant, as much as I hate to say.
 
Tugcapitan said:
You know, I rarely post how I feel about our sport fishing restrictions.
No one loves catching them more than I do. I mean it, you might like catching fish just as much as I do, but not more. That feeling.
But, call it brain washing, or uninformed, or ill informed, I can’t help but think that there’s really no downside to the population of salmon on this coast if we stop fishing for a while.
I like to think I’m a decent enough fisherman, but I’ve weeded through slot sizes and hatchery fish and knowingly fed salmon to seals, accidentally left hooks buried deep in lost fish, and accidentally harmed fish while trying to release them. I can’t deny my pressure on the resource even being as careful as I can, and I’ve seen a lot of it around me too.

Also, I can’t think of anyone else the government IS capable of reducing fishing opportunities to besides us.
The consequences of those measures are incredibly hard on the people who depend on sport fishing for a living, many of whom I love and admire. I have no answer for that.
I also don’t want to lose the right to fish for salmon forever, and would submit $500 as per the original post if that’s what everyone thought it would take to keep it. But, what if letting them be for now and concentrating on bringing them back is the thing to do instead? Hard as it is and as much as others could be doing more, if we did our part and applied zero pressure for a while, what would happen? Would it make a big difference? Maybe not.
Would it make a small difference? Maybe, and maybe that’s the threshold now and any difference is enough to make it worthwhile?
I doubt any of us want to tell our grandsons we caught the last ones, or at least I don’t.
Click to expand...

I get what your saying. I often think the same way. The truth is we have to look at this a little differently.

Let's say we closed everything down bc wide for 2 years just recreational. In 2 years I think you would still see same issues but also the erosion of salmon enhancement activities on coast. Volunteers would mist likely walk away and funds to keep enhancement going would fall apart.

You have to look at history. David Anderson closed down coho to protect IFS coho when he was fisheries minister. Now if you look at that stock regardless of restrictions it never recovered.

This is actually the root of DFO problem in Ottawa. It's reactive. DFO has no recovery plan in place that is meaningful. Dfo seems to think by shifting around the resource to other in river fisheries this problem is going away. It really isn't.

The only way for a true recovery is by facing these problems with the river itself. And yes that means confronting some elephants in room like our BC government and its monitoring of industrial pollution along river etc.

It's interesting isn't it. Cowichan River, Robertson Creek and Port Alberni have roundtable in place. They may not be perfect but don't you find it strange why those systems do better than most across BC and provide opportunities?

Maybe one of the problems is that groups on Fraser don't work with each other? If groups actually stopped throwing stones at each other maybe we could get something. A real roundtable needs to be done right now.

As for a lawsuit. I don't see it working myself. Especially right now in a pandemic and with little public support. The only lawsuit I could see working in suing DFO for no recovery plan.
 
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grascal said:
Another time and situation, perhaps. However, at this time too many people are completely sidetracked with this plandemic bs and not paying attention to what Trudeau is quietly slipping in. Universal basic income, undrip, low mortgage rates with a killer clause carbon tax and govt censorship of social media and the internet. Does anyone even care about these things? That is what will change our lives. Fishing could seem pretty insignificant, as much as I hate to say.
Click to expand...

Yep pandemic is BS it's being designed so CRA makes less taxes. Said no business ever.

I don't like Trudeau either but let's leave the paranoid political comments out of the thread.
 
SpringVelocity said:
Let's say we closed everything down bc wide for 2 years just recreational. In 2 years I think you would still see same issues but also the erosion of salmon enhancement activities on coast. Volunteers would mist likely walk away and funds to keep enhancement going would fall apart.
Click to expand...
Not to mention, the other user group would fish regardless with no consequence.
no point in shutting it down, enhancement is the only thing that will bring them back.
 
the butcher said:
Tugcapitan, I admire your willingness to hang up the rod for the betterment of chinook salmon and to do your share. However, your line of thinking is the wrong approach in my opinion. There are no issues with opportunities to fish for chinook species that are not threatened. DFO and so does everyone else who searches for it, has DNA evidence that should allow us to be out fishing...If DFO wont even allow a hatchery fish their arguements about protecting endangered wild stocks of concern are full of ****. The fight here is about the opportunity to enjoy a resource as a citizen of this country...

its plain and simple...until we fight back, whether it be legal challenge, blockades, chain ourselves in front of DFO offices etc... and in large numbers, not just a hundred or 2 people...we need thousands and thosuands, if not tens of thosuands of pissed of comrades... what about rallying all industries directly and indirectly affected such as restaurants, hotels, transportation, lodges, etc..

Instead of donating $500 which may not go far since legal battles can be long and drawn out.... why not spend that money on return airfare to ottawa(which is cheap as hell nowadays), and bang pots and pans outside Bernadette's office? politicians, especially incompentent and lazy ones like Bernadette, do not like to be embarrassed...challenged and put in the spotlight... they want to ride the gravy train on a smooth and uneventful ride...lets make her ride bumpy, full of potholes, jerky and abrupt. Screw letters...they dont do ****... time for action..
Click to expand...
I could only agree with you "IF" all pressure is curtailed , not just the sport/rec sector
 
There's no such thing as shutting fishing down coast wide so you might as well stop fantasizing about it. Fraser first nations alone have over a million sockeye a year requirement to meet FSC needs. IF they don't get it, then they get priority to the next most desirable fish for them and that's chinook.

Any ground given up by the rec sector will just be given to fill this need.

Not to mention that even with a low exploitation of less than 5% some of these endangered stocks are failing to make brood or replacement numbers, So its not like we're talking about stopping fishing for 1 cycle and that's not 1 year its 3-5 years to cover off one cycle and its not like one cycle would be enough. You would be looking at doing something like 3-5 cycles and hoping to see doubling each year. So perfect ocean survival. That would be 30 years.

"To sustain our coastal communities and have viable tourism and recreational fishing, we need to provide opportunity. You can't just have closures because you're going to lose infrastructure etc." Dr. Brian Riddell, Science Advisor to the Pacific Salmon Foundation and former research scientist with DFO for 30 years.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=480838366403974
 
fish brain said:
DFO has basically shut down the south coast to salmon fishing. Some will argue that there are areas open to fish, but in reality for the majority of us we are sitting at home for most of the summer. April Fools has come and gone with promises of a decision coming soon. And yet we are all just griping about our lost opportunities and hoping that they will follow the SFAB's (who can only advise, thus the A in SFAB) recommendation to allow us a marked select fishery. And still we wait.....And wait........And wait.
I am tired of waiting. The ENGO's have money and lawyers on their side, we have volunteers who give countless hours of their time and need to be recognized for all their hard work. But at the end of the day money talks an BS walks.
I say we hire a legal team to represent the sport fishers of BC. I don't know which organization would be best, or could actually do it, maybe the Public Fishery Alliance? If everyone on the forum ponied up say $500 and we hit up industry, and started a media campaign, maybe we could actually raise enough to mount a credible challenge to DFO/ Ministry of Fisheries to let them know 1) we have had enough 2) we are prepared to fight for our right to fish along with the other stake holders.
So in the spirit of my post I pledge $500.00 to start things off.
Who is in?
What group is prepared to take this to court?
Click to expand...

To go to court you need a case. Given that we already have at the supreme court level that FSC and conservation is priority you would need to navigate those already established law.

So you would need a situation where there is no conservation or FSC concern but for some reason DFO closes the rec fishery.
 
Salmon fishing is done. It will fizzle out over the next few years and then be forgotten like many things of the past. I am glad I got to see and experience the end of the glory days. Warnings were on the wall way back then already but most fishermen thought these concerns were a joke and the salmon would last forever. A defunct representational system for the rec fishers was ignored for too long and even today still, instead of holding DFO to account for the foreseeable trajectory of salmon stocks and fishing opportunities. It's all too late now. Humans only learn the hard way. Sorry to say this.
 
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