Halibut Closed Until Further Notice

Governor;

Your enthusiasm is infectious. Keep it up!

Where were you when the WSA was born?

Please do not interpret this as an attempt to derail your thread.

Too bad the halibut fisheries manager's weren't calling the shots for Pacific salmon a couple of decades back; maybe we would still have more salmon around as well.

You are dead-right about apathy and dis-organization amongst BC's sport-fishing community, and true as well, our government, the commercial's, and the fish-farmers all play on it like a finely tuned violin.

I have no bones with commercial fishermen, they are simply taking what is being given to them. What I have issue with, as do many, is the obvious lack of apportionment of the resource. It does not work to the greater-benefit of the people of BC and needs to be fixed!

If it helps you at all, I would offer but a humble word of caution in your efforts to organize the 'boys': choose your words carefully. In the last year or so I've been trying to build the WSA into something formidable to do battle with government and the fishfarmers, I've given rein to my mouth (ahead of my brain) on more than one occasion and it has not served the cause; several have quit the movement. I have been called names and jabbed-at by my fellow 'sporties' as well as the fish-farmers. I have been accused by the RCMP of making bomb and extortion threats against an office (DFO) of the Canadian government. In short, I have had what your average dude might say is ample reason and opportunity to simply throw my hands in the air and quit this battle against this great 'blight' on our coastline.

Yet, I have no intention of quitting and I will continue to learn from my mistakes and use what I learn to try to help ensure there are still some fish around for my kids and grandkids.

Stay focused on your goal and let everything else run off your back like water off a duck.

Whatever develops from your noble efforts here, you can count on my support as well as that from the WSA that I can enlist. Good on you.

Cheers to you and the rest of the 'Warriors' on this forum!

Terry Anderson

Wild Salmon Alliance
 
quote:Originally posted by Governor


bullcrap:

The data came from two sources, both showing identical numbers. The November 2008 Sport Fishing Institute news letter ran an article on halibut and also the data appeared in an official letter sent out by the chair of the Sport Fishing Advisory Board's Halibut Committee. Data is based on DFO catch data, statistics Canada Survey data and industry information.

Personally, I think the number for recreational halibut is too consertvative at $18.50 per lb, as it was based on only 10% of the total annual money brought in by the recreatioanl sector. My gut tells me halibut is now a higher number than 10%. But I prefer to use info from my research not skewing things with personal exaggeration.

Was your 250 licenses for charter operator business licenses in Prince Rupert a bit of a porkie? Or are you lumping in river guides too, as I know there's a cart load of low gunwaled aluminum boats with jet-flow outboards kicking around town which obviously run the Skeena for salmon and steelhead.


Governor


God never did make a more calm, quiet, innocent recreation than angling - Izaak Walton
Click to expand...

yes I was putting all the guides into the 250. My main concern is that fishing is getting worse and worse here. You can't find a rockfish between Prince Rupert and Dundas Island and hali are getting tough to find. This is an area that the commercials do not work so the effort is pretty much commercial sports. The impact we are seeing as locals is huge.
Yes the town is in tough shape and the revenue is more than welcome, but not at the expense of the resource.
That is why I asked where the numbers came from. I have never seen an unbiased paper publshed on the value of fish landed.

For those I may have offended by my user name I apologize. The moderator has asked me to change it and I believe that is in the works.

fish4all
 
Gov, or someone as capable. Can you draft us up a background document so we can start taking it/sending it around to our comrades to gain support on this issue? If we have this a bunch of us guys could start distributing it and get some more people at this meeting. I would also suggest that we make some decisions at this Feb 3 meeting in Victoria about how to proceed regarding our options that you mentioned (lobbying, leaders, war-chest, etc...)

I'm sure that the BC Wildlife Federation or the SFI would be willing to shoulder this and advance on the right people on behalf of the recreational community so someone should propose this to them and get their input/status, etc...maybe they are already advancing on this...

Regardless we have to channel our support and maybe the meeting on Feb 3 in Vic would be a good spot for us to come together and make some decisions (seriously guys, we have to get down to Victoria and start this off, talking is not effective enough)

Any suggestions for roles that we can play, as some people would be more effective doing certain things...we need a leader and we need to make some decisions. Gov I nominate you if you would like to lead, and I'm sure there are others in the wings.

By the way, what is the capacity of the meeting place in Victoria? We should pack it full-or overflowing.

Millsy
 
Hey fish4all:

Great new user name! Far better than your previous handle.

You are right as you suggest there’s lots of bad numbers floating around, but I didn’t fabricate. I would have posted the source material as proof but they are in pdf form and I can’t cut and paste. The sources I cited also identify how they arrived at those numbers by showing the math.

Your last post needs response. Rockfish are a totally different topic, not going there today. If as you suggest about the lack of fish for locals, that implies halibut depletion in your local waters. That is not a global resource conservation concern. Have you any numbers to back up your claims. Has the CPUE (catch per unit effort) gone way up? Are you saying the landings at the dock of fish dropped? Have you brought this to a local SFAB meeting to ask DFO staff in person what is happening? I heard nothing of it at Rupert’s local and North Coast SFAB meeting in December 2008. Another factor to consider, if the fish aren’t there then the anglers soon tire of reeling up and down 300 foot of line to wave a Big Gulp or drown a herring needlessly. Plus no fish equals wasting fuel on a pleasure boat trip. They’re a savvy bunch that will soon look elsewhere. Seems like you must adapt. Same as down here, you got go find’em to catch, there isn’t a law that says you will have fish waiting for you of the end of the wharf in front of your house.

DFO, in Rupert, is worried about the scallywag poachers who catch way more fish than their possession limit and drive home out-of-town on Hwy 16 with coolers loaded, while the enforcement staff can’t set up roadblocks. Also heard how the commercial salmon net fishery has an ugly steelhead by-catch and many infractions by license holders to do with their revival systems and/or not using them. If ever there was a reason to fix a problem, the steelhead by-catch in the commercial salmon nets issue is the one, as that is the lifeblood of your world class angling tourism upstream on the Skeena.


Governor





God never did make a more calm, quiet, innocent recreation than angling - Izaak Walton
 
Millsy,

You make some good points. Drafting a backgrounder is easy; most of the material is readily available. At this time getting the locals riled up (organized) is a tad premature. As the ever-hopeful angler that I am, something positive might happen (praise the Lord) at the SFAB Main Board next weekend (i.e. keep a brave face in gloomy times a few days longer), we need to give DFO and the Minister a chance to announce any good news.

Meeting on Feb 3 is to bring the troops together and as a group decide what needs to do be done to get our fishery back.

BCWF and SFI have been and are currently working BC-wide for all anglers on the bigger hali issue and have known of the South Vancouver Island injustice and closure challenges for over a year. Nothing has worked for us down here to date. The Minister and federal politicians need to feel the real pain that us local anglers are experiencing. What better to knock on the door of your neighbourhood MP (Lunn, Savoie, Martin, Crawford and Lunney) to explain in-person the injustice of it all?

Room capacity 200 theatre seating but need to add some tables for writing letters. 50 – 100 at the meeting would be perfect! Remember this is not a rally. Nice part of the Sandman venue is that you can order a beer and some nachos from a slinky Shark Club serving wench while you discuss fishing amongst comrades.

Humbled by your nomination, thanks! Let's allow the troops a chance to speak; this will provide direction and give whoever emerges the mandate. There are some great heads out there in our sports boat fleet; we need the best to make our point.


Governor



God never did make a more calm, quiet, innocent recreation than angling - Izaak Walton
 
quote:Originally posted by Little Hawk

Governor,

Welcome aboard!

If your numbers are on the money, I wasn't off by much when I figured sport-caught fish brought about 10-times more back to the Province vs. the commercials'...

Give'em Hell!
Click to expand...

Gov;
I’m still a little confused about the matchbox math. The average price for halibut to the vessel for commercial halibut this year was $5.00 and as high as $7.00(came from a local processor)
Here is some math that I did. Could you show me where I am off?

Cost of Charter $650/day 1-3 people (I used Wolfs price. I used the daily possession limit as I see from wolf’s pics he is obviously good at what he does and appears to limit out. also i read ads from other operators that guarantee clients that they will limit out)

Individual Catch
2 springs (18lb ave) 36lbs
2 Hali (20lb ave) 40lbs
2 coho (12lb ave) 24lbs
6 lingcod (10lb ave) 60lbs
6 rockfish (3lb ave) 18lbs
Total 178lbs

Average price per lb for 1 angler $3.65, 2 anglers $1.82, 3 anglers $1.21

Commercial catch
36lbs springs ($6/lb) $216
40lbs hali ($5/lb) $200
24lb coho ($3/lb) $ 72
60lbs lings ($1.5/lb) $ 90
18lbs rockfish ($1/lb) $ 18
Total $596
Average price per lb $3.34

Where did the $18 come from? If you are including hotels, travel, food…ect for the sports numbers than you have to include unloading, processing, trucking..ect for commercial. That being said the store price for hali is $40/kg or approx.$18/lb for commercial or much higher if you look at the cost in a restaurant(as high as $45 for 1/2lb).

You asked where I got the name BC from. It came from reading things like the SFI letter that won’t use proper numbers.

My personal opinion is that the lodge and charter fleet have no business being lumped together with other sports fishers. The commercial sports fleet should be licensed, allocated a portion of the sports share and be able to lease or purchase what ever else they need to make a viable business plan. This riding on the coat tails of the “tin boat” sports fisher (like my self) is becoming more and more unacceptable. Especially when the season gets cut short because 60% of the sports allocation is being given to out of country clients that have little or no regard if anything is left for us locals.
 
lol...I'm sure you will get plenty of responses there, but regardless of whether or not you include gas/food/accommodation for clients (which that number likely would include), you are quite laughable in these numbers:

Individual Catch
2 springs (18lb ave) 36lbs
2 Hali (20lb ave) 40lbs
2 coho (12lb ave) 24lbs
6 lingcod (10lb ave) 60lbs
6 rockfish (3lb ave) 18lbs
Total 178lbs

Can you even legally catch that anywhere on the coast? Not sure about north of the island, but I don't believe anywhere on the island would you be allowed that, or even get close to that if you tried.

Take Sooke for example in a 'typical summer' - max allowance

2 chinook
2 coho (hatchery)
2 hali
1 ling
1 rockcod

Thats the 'best' someone could legally pull off.

Realistically, a typical day for a guide down here could perhaps be:

2 chinook = 36lbs

or
1 chinook = 18lb
1 halibut (bycatch on salmon gear) = 40lb

or
2 halibut = 80 lbs (dedicated halibut charter)

now keep in mind, these would be successful days, and very rare to come by

Now crunch some numbers
 
fish4all

You call the SFI and the SFAB liars because you do not like the truth, that's rich coming from you! Twice already I have smoked you out telling porkies on your postings here! You wrote "60% of the sports allocation is being given to out of country clients..." sounds like another big fat unsubstantiated one to me! Your mantra of poor hard done by tin boater from Rupert who believes the charter guys are to blame, seems shrowded by a mischievious commercial fishermen's bias. And hey, it now comes across like you failed math and economics too.

Should a taxi driver be forced to buy opera tickets so he can drive paying customer to the Met? Your logic is false Buddy. Back to you - why not have the government force restaurants buy quota in order to put your halibut on their menu? Yeah, that makes sense doesn't it? Commercial quota "ownership" of a Canadian common property resource, which is rightly the property of all Canadians, is terribly wrong! And is at the root of all this unrest in the public fishery.

fish4all: wasting my time on line debating with you ends right here. For good. Claiming it a win to others by me not being sucked in anymore by your antagonistic folly could not be more false, so don't even try! Simply put, you would only be adding more "bullcrap" on this chatroom.

Enough already!


Governor



God never did make a more calm, quiet, innocent recreation than angling - Izaak Walton
 
quote:Individual Catch
2 springs (18lb ave) 36lbs
2 Hali (20lb ave) 40lbs
2 coho (12lb ave) 24lbs
6 lingcod (10lb ave) 60lbs
6 rockfish (3lb ave) 18lbs
Total 178lbs
Click to expand...

This is so out to lunch its not even funny.
 
Besides the one dink, the thread is developing nicely!

Action! Action!

Guess I'll see you on the 3rd. My boss will pay for me to come...

Gimee the gaff!!!
 
Yes people hire guides/charters to catch fish but alot of them go for an experience to see our beutiful coast where they dont have to buy a boat and all the expenses to go with that, I have had clients that dont even want the fish or catch a couple and thats enough for them.

And where in my ad (see the spelling not ADD) does it say I quarentee a limit I have NEVER in my life made such a statement and never will!!!!!!!!

Remember the old saying "A BAD DAY FISHING IS BETTER THAN A GOOD DAY AT WORK"

Fishing is and can be "just a job" just like what you are doing whatever one does for a living.

I am on the side a professional cook in a retirement home why dont you give me grief about that job i have over 150 residents soon to be over 200 that I feed so in fact I have there lives my hand as well in a boat I have 1 to 4 people not 150 to 200.

I am tired of all the blaming us againt everyone WE are all in the same pile deal with it or stop going fishing it is entirelly up to you.


Good luck Wolf

Blue Wolf Charters
www.bluewolfcharters.com
 
quote:And where in my ad (see the spelling not ADD) does it say I quarentee a limit I have NEVER in my life made such a statement and never will!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

My apologies if that is the way it read wolf. nowhere on your page do you make that statement. I was referring to your rates.

What i was trying to do was understand the math. When i do manage to get my boat out at rushbrook it is quite often I hear people talking about limiting out in all species. I took the numbers I used off the dfo website except for the lings and rockfish as i didnt see those numbers. I was hoping to get an explanation but again I pissed off a few members.

Living here most of my life I have been on both sides of the fence (ex commercial fisher,ex guide cause I sucked at it), and have friends on both sides as well. The value is an argument that comes up often so I was curious how the $18 was derived.

The other numbers i used $5 average for hali came from a local processor and the 60% commercial sports number came from dfo.
 
Here's what Marilyn Murphy wrote to the Minister on behalf of the SFAB and the SFI...so things are in the works.

_______________________________________________________________________
Sport Fishing Advisory Board c/o 6150 Ferguson Road, Port Alberni, BC, V9Y 8L4
604-786-3439 murphymar@shaw.ca
Honorable Gail Shea Jan 26 2009
Minister of Fisheries and Oceans
House of Commons
Ottawa, ON
K1A 0E6
Dear Minister,
On behalf of the Sport Fishing Advisory Board, and its member organization the Sport Fishing
Institute, I would like to thank you for taking the time to meet with us on Jan 16th in
Vancouver.
Because of the urgency attached to a decision about halibut allocation, I thought it would be
helpful if we were to reiterate the key points which we put forward during the meeting. We
also discussed very briefly the need for renewed support for the Salmonid Enhancement
Program and the process underway to define a vision for the recreational sector and look
forward to pursuing these and other issues with you in the future.
With the support of Canada’s commissioners, the International Pacific Halibut Commission
has decided to reduce our country’s allowable harvest to 7.635 million pounds for 2009,
which is significantly less than our historic share. When combined with the previous Liberal
government’s fixed percentage allocation policy which limits the recreational sector to 12% of
the fish available for recreational and commercial harvest, this creates a situation in which
significant value will be removed from the coastal and Canada’s economy unless you
exercise your ministerial discretion to change the allocation policy.
Even after new constraints had been placed on anglers, the recreational harvest in 2008 was
1.5 million pounds. Holding the sector to the 88/12 division in 2009 would mean an allocation
of 918,360 pounds. Since each pound of recreationally-caught halibut brings $18.63 to the
provincial economy, compared with $3.60 for each pound of commercially caught fish, such a
decision would extract value from the coastal economy at a time when the opposite is
needed.
The current situation exposes the fundamental weakness of trying to express the recreational
allocation in percentage terms. It means that in times of lower abundance, as at present, the
sector is artificially restricted while in times of high abundance it would have allocated to it a
volume of fish that it could not possibly harvest.
We think it makes much more sense to view the recreational allocation in terms of what your
officials calculate will be harvested in the coming season, given the possession rules in place
at any point and the expected fishing effort. This is the process that has been used for more
than 10 years with respect to Chinook and Coho, two other species that are central to the
economic value of the recreational fishery. Since it is possible for the department to have a
clear idea of the total recreational harvest by the end of the summer, any surplus can be
reallocated to the commercial quota holders for harvest in the fall.
_______________________________________________________________________
Sport Fishing Advisory Board c/o 6150 Ferguson Road, Port Alberni, BC, V9Y 8L4
604-786-3439 murphymar@shaw.ca
While in percentage terms the recreational share would go up in years of lower overall
abundance, the opposite would be true in the more abundant years that are predicted to be
coming, without any need for the cumbersome “market-based” arrangements between the
sectors that were required by the “Thibault Policy” and which have proven to be unworkable.
To operate on the same basis as last year, continuing restrictions which have already
removed value from the fishery, the recreational sector requires an allocation similar to last
year’s actual harvest of 1.5 million pounds. Because Canada’s commissioners agreed to a
reduced national portion for the 2009 season, this amounts to 20% of the fish available for
commercial/recreational harvest. If government feels it must compensate commercial quota
holders for this percentage change in 2009, you could recover this cost over time from
recreational halibut anglers through increased license fees or some other measure such as a
halibut stamp. We would suggest, however, that the size of any such compensation should
take into account the fact that the commercial sector left fish in the water at the end of the
2008 season, as it has done many times in recent years, that is nearly equal to the projected
recreational shortfall in 2009.
During the recent IPHC meeting some commercial processors actually argued that the
allowable harvest ought to be reduced for 2009, and the opening of the season delayed,
because they had millions of pounds of unsold frozen halibut in cold storage; and that the
majority of Canada’s commercial quota is now owned by shore-bound speculators who
simply lease quota in order to profit at the expense of the skippers and deckhands who
actually go fishing.
It is time for government to turn a new page and admit that the allocation policy imposed by
former Minister Thibault was ill-considered and that it has failed. The policy had three
components.
• It called for a market-based transfer mechanism.
• It imposed the 88/12 division until market-based transfers were possible.
• It promised that there would be no in-season closure of the recreational fishery.
Since government has declined to move forward with the consensus proposal for
compensated transfers, and since your officials have broken the ministerial promise about inseason
closures, surely it would be unfair to continue imposing the 88/12 division, especially
when this means undermining the social and economic value of the fishing sector that now
accounts for the single largest share of Canada’s West Coast fishing economy. Failure to act
would seem to confirm that the halibut quota system has fettered your statutory allocation
power and confirmed ownership of fish prior to harvest, contrary to Justice Binnie’s ruling in
the recent Saulnier case that such proprietary interest in fish was “contingent, of course, on
first catching it.”
_______________________________________________________________________
Sport Fishing Advisory Board c/o 6150 Ferguson Road, Port Alberni, BC, V9Y 8L4
604-786-3439 murphymar@shaw.ca
We look forward to an early positive decision that will allow recreational anglers to continue
having fair access to halibut under rules that ensure Canada gets the highest level of social
and economic benefits from this common property resource. We believe that such a decision
would be consistent with the department’s Operational Policy Framework for recreational
fisheries which says that “further consideration will be given to increased or priority access for
recreational use under the concept of ‘best use’ of the resource after obligations to First
Nations are met.” It also would reflect the statement in the Atlantic Fisheries Policy that a
“best use” decision is one “that will generate the greatest possible public good or best serve
the interests of all Canadians.”
Yours sincerely,
Marilyn Murphy
Chair
Sport Fishing Advisory Board
 
quote:Originally posted by fish4all

What i was trying to do was understand the math. When i do manage to get my boat out at rushbrook it is quite often I hear people talking about limiting out in all species. I took the numbers I used off the dfo website except for the lings and rockfish as i didnt see those numbers. I was hoping to get an explanation but again I pissed off a few members.

Living here most of my life I have been on both sides of the fence (ex commercial fisher,ex guide cause I sucked at it), and have friends on both sides as well. The value is an argument that comes up often so I was curious how the $18 was derived.

The other numbers i used $5 average for hali came from a local processor and the 60% commercial sports number came from dfo.
Click to expand...

Well, recalc on the numbers I gave you because that is the limit that the 'majority' of anglers face around here. North of Port Hardy accounts for 5% of the angling population at best?? Renfrew would at least have option for a few more groundfish, but given their smaller halibut, that will just offset your total weight. Port Hardy, you could probably put somewhere in between. Bottom line, about 50 pounds would be considered a damn good day anywhere south of Gold River!
 
quote:Originally posted by fish4all


Individual Catch
2 springs (18lb ave) 36lbs
2 Hali (20lb ave) 40lbs
2 coho (12lb ave) 24lbs
6 lingcod (10lb ave) 60lbs
6 rockfish (3lb ave) 18lbs
Total 178lbs

Average price per lb for 1 angler $3.65, 2 anglers $1.82, 3 anglers $1.21
Click to expand...
So if I hear ya right what you're saying is either the charter guys don't charge enough
or
We should all sell our boats and hire a charter every weekend
Who's in?
$1.21/lb yeah right LOL

JUST FISHEN'
 
quote:

Well, recalc on the numbers I gave you because that is the limit that the 'majority' of anglers face around here. North of Port Hardy accounts for 5% of the angling population at best?? Renfrew would at least have option for a few more groundfish, but given their smaller halibut, that will just offset your total weight. Port Hardy, you could probably put somewhere in between. Bottom line, about 50 pounds would be considered a damn good day anywhere south of Gold River!
Click to expand...
Thanks for that. those numbers definitly change the picture.
 
Well, the only one who is making much sense in this thread is the Governor. Time for us to develop a game plan, organize and implement. Honestly, the best hope of moving forward in a meaningful way would be for the salt water recreational fishers to start putting their efforts into established lobby groups. Probably the best results are coming from the SFI, but not enough of us sporties are involved to build a larger and diverse voice of salt water recreational anglers.

Let's also not forget the points contained in Marilyn's letter to the Minister. There are ways to move forward, and the SFI has laid out 3 solid options to the Minister on the whole allocation issue.

I won't be able to make the Feb meeting in Victoria, but I would be interested in knowing the outcome and hearing what group everyone agreed to place their support behind.
 
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