Continued Debate on Canada's Government

SerengetiGuide

Well-Known Member
So I will agree with you on Fisheries for the most part, not completely, but most part Chris. However, you are way off base for 2/3.

First off, Canada in Copenhagen. Canada has been lauded by the UN's Climate Chief as "negotiating very constructively" yet we should be embarrassed? Maybe if you are listening to those from the Climate Action Network who are giving out fossil of the day awards, yet have NO involvement in negotiations or any sort of views into anything going on behind closed doors, if you are in fact listening to them then you have larger problems than climate change. These same people are associated with David Suzuki, another "great" person to listen to...one who just the other day compared Ottawa's attempt to protect the economy and jobs as just as bad as the US southern states building a society based on slavery (Source: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...9/12/17/suzuki-s-latest-nutbar-statement.aspx)

It must also be noted that 2 of these fossil of the day awards were given to Canada in spite just a day after Mr. Prentice ripped the Climate Action Network a new one and gave them his own award...

What is really embarrassing are the behaviors of those like Toronto Mayor David Miller (who I am embarrassed to share a first name with) saying he is ashamed and embarrassed to even be Canadian...this is a man who I am extremely happy to see not running for re-election. Mr Miller, Ontarioians and Quebecers should think before they begin yapping about the rest of the country...they want an even playing field for emissions cuts, so they should also have an even playing field for wealth distribution, read (http://www.montrealgazette.com/busi...rs+Canada+oilsands+bashers/2306030/story.html)

As for accountability, the Conservatives have been light years better than those of the previous Liberal government. And if you are going to begin to complain about the fact that terrorists were being watered down with hoses and more mild forms of torture used against them, then you should get checked out. These people attempted to kill Canadian troops, yet you are still against using forceful tactics to get information out of them which may save more Canadian troop`s lives, or maybe even lives here in Canada or the US??? Really? Let me put it to you this way, what if a loved one, wife, son, daughter, were in the armed forces and over in Afghanistan, and mild torture tactics used on already captured terrorists could save their lives by finding out information on where their next attack on troops may be, would you still be against it? I don't even see why this torture is even an issue to be talked about.

There is absolutely no way anyone could say Canada would be in a better position with the Liberal party running Canada at the moment, whether they have the laughable Dion at the helm or the apparently even more laughable Iffy at the helm. Thank goodness for the new transferal of power or else Canada could be in quite the predicament.

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What I know about Canada's performance in Copenhagen I get from CBC News and papers like Times Colonist and international press through internet. Based on their reports Canada is trying to push for some of the lowest emission cuts than any other developed nation has suggested and basically refuses to even attempt to fulfill their committments already made (Kyoto). That for one of the richest nations in the world with the least impacts from the downturn is a slap into our faces. The obvious protection of oilsand profits at all cost is very revealing I think and the excuses brought forward (have to match what US does...etc) are pretty laughable. Too obvious their agenda and NOT good for Canada and the world.

Re torture and so on in Afghanistan - you are right. That topic itself is stupid and nobody clearly thinking can expect western standards being applied in a middle-age country. Also, some of those captured certainly don't deserve any different. BUT, it's how the government handles this "scandal" - trying to hide things, cover-ups, contradictions etc. And that was not the first time that they were doing this. Just typical politicians - nothing new but Harper promised to change this. Didn't happen. Business as usual.

And that Canada dodged the downturn better than most is NOT Harpers achievement. Mostly pure luck on his part that our banking system was not set up as screwed as in US and Europe. The throw-out of billions to large corporations is questionable in my eyes - but that may be viewed differently by others. The infrastructure stimulus was badly coordinated and did almost more harm than good at the critical time due to delays and unclear communication on the government side. I have seen the bad results first hand but don't want to go too much in detail now.

Not saying Liberals would have done any better but believe me people will vote different just to protest the unfulfilled promises and expectations. If it will be better then - who knows - but Harper & Co. did not do much good for us so far.
 
serengeti, you need to get your head around the FACT that not a single credable shred of useful intelligence has been gained via torture, nada, zero, n-o-t-h-i-n-g. i have no idea what canadians have done to POW's but i am well versed in what the USA has done. the simple fact is that the person undergoing torture will say and do most anything to get it to stop. while you may argue, emotionally , that it needs to be done, it is only an emotional position to take and has nothing what-so-ever to do with obtaining useful intelligence information, dem'da'facts, like it or not.
 
Pro-torture? Seriously? You are disgusting.

I thought the latest white-wash reason to occupy Afghanistan was to make it better. If Canada is encouraging the very practices that make Afghanistan a terrible place, then how are we helping? The way to protect Canadian troops is to pull them out of an endless, pointless war. It is NOT torturing enemy combatants.

But we are stuck with the war. Stone-wall Harper, on the other hand, serves at our discretion.
 
Oh, so you are in the CIA reelfast...must be to know nothing useful has ever been taken from torture...and to say that torture has never been effective. Pretty absurd actually.

The CBC is not exactly a great source to hear news stories, but with that being said Canada is pushing for a reduction of 23% emissions by 2020 over 2007 levels, compare that to the 17% the US is pleeing for. And to say canada is the reason talks are not going well in Copenhagen like some idiots from the Toronto Sun etc is completely and probably the most ridiculous thing said yet. Like I said before, the UN Climate Chief himself said Canada is negotiating productively. As for the oil sands...Canada must protect them to some extent, they generate extremely large amounts of revenue for the Canadian government and provide tons of jobs, many of which BC'ers are positioned in, which is what provides you with health care, good infrastructure, etc etc. To say that shutting down or even greatly reducing the production of the oil sands would do little to affect Canada AS A WHOLE, not just Alberta's economy comes from an uneducated mind. In many ways, including equalization payments to out east, the place complaining the most, the oil sands have a much larger effect on Canada and our financial well being than many believe.

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quote:Originally posted by flydon

Reelfast-I suppose you have proof of nada etc????
Don

I think it would be impossible to prove that. Studies can show torture doesn't work but in the real world that doesn't mean it hasn't in the past in very important circumstances none the less either.

As for the pro-torture comment, I am if it will save lives...especially if those being tortured tried to take Canadian lives, whether civilian or troops. I have a half brother in the navy and if anyone ever tried to take his life they would be lucky to get off with only being tortured. There was a site with a list of the few torture tactics that were used by the Afghans (remember it was not the Cdns who tortured, but those we past off the terrorists to), most were not those that come to mind when someone says torture. While obviously still not child's play, they were not "brutal" in the sense of the torture scale.

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To hell with it, maybe you are right Serengeti. If I see you coming down the dock with a couple nice fish and you won't give up the exact spot, speed, depth, gear etc., I'll just turn the hose on you. That oughta loosen your lips.

Or how about this: suppose you have a loved one fighting in a foreign war. Now, suppose the Geneva Conventions and other prohibitions on torture are repealed. Do you feel better or worse about the overall security of your loved one?

You are an excellent representative for the Conservative party. Perhaps you should try to get your views across on a larger scale. ;)
 
quote:Originally posted by Steelhead S2

To hell with it, maybe you are right Serengeti. If I see you coming down the dock with a couple nice fish and you won't give up the exact spot, speed, depth, gear etc., I'll just turn the hose on you. That oughta loosen your lips.

Or how about this: suppose you have a loved one fighting in a foreign war. Now, suppose the Geneva Conventions and other prohibitions on torture are repealed. Do you feel better or worse about the overall security of your loved one?

You are an excellent representative for the Conservative party. Perhaps you should try to get your views across on a larger scale. ;)

To try and compare fishing spots with Canadian lives clearly shows you do not understand the cost of a Canadian life...essentially comparing it to that of a fish..really? Shame. [V]

I'd feel just as secure. No more, no less.

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there has been substantial testimony of former CIA folks on this very topic. so yes, the conclusions are public information at this point. it don't work, period.

i would also want to be treated the same way i treat POWs that i might capture. the geneva conventions were put in place for a very good reason and there is zero justification for not following them. the fact that TheDick didn't bother with them, is not a reasonable excuse for ignoring them.

the united states made a serious and grevious error in invading iraq, for no reason on earth. bush also made an even larger mistake in not going in and taking out OBL. now, we are stuck in afganastan with not a single way out, just another quagmire started and continued by yet another idiot politician.
 
Dave--- you still havn't followed through with the plan to sleep with Gail Shea to get her to scrap the halibut allocation-- Come on now-- A young guy like you?? Should be no problemo....:D:D:D

Intruder2-2.jpg


20ft Alumaweld Intruder
 
While I will not disagree with you about Iraq, Afghanistan was a reasonable war in my opinion, and as I know a few people that have been over there for the Canadian forces they have all said that they could see the good they were doing and agree with the war.

CL - Too busy with my hands full of women my own age...I guess Mrs. Shea can be up next though ;) After New Years though, exam time you know lol

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Zinnng! Except, I didn't actually compare fish life to Canadian life. (I was making fun of you [:p].) And, between the two of us, I'm the one who wants our troops home and out of harms way rather than being killed and mutilated in the sand for no clear reason.

One thing I don't actually see is, how does all this good-timing low-grade torture actually contribute to Canadian security? We aren't doing it. And we don't condone it (officially). So I don't think we benefit from any of the "information" it brings to light. Am I missing something?

Any way, I'll let up. I'm sure you are a solid guy, and I never hold a man's politics against him. If I ever meet you in real life I promise not to hose you down, unless you're on fire.
 
quote:Originally posted by Steelhead S2

Zinnng! Except, I didn't actually compare fish life to Canadian life. (I was making fun of you [:p].) And, between the two of us, I'm the one who wants our troops home and out of harms way rather than being killed and mutilated in the sand for no clear reason.

One thing I don't actually see is, how does all this good-timing low-grade torture actually contribute to Canadian security? We aren't doing it. And we don't condone it (officially). So I don't think we benefit from any of the "information" it brings to light. Am I missing something?

Any way, I'll let up. I'm sure you are a solid guy, and I never hold a man's politics against him. If I ever meet you in real life I promise not to hose you down, unless you're on fire.

Definitely we can agree on this...my buddy and I used to joke about one of us being PM while the other leader of opposition (he is very liberal) but once we were done for the day we'd head out for some beers.

However, I have never been to Afghanistan,but like I said the couple troops I know that have been say they are seeing a lot more freedom and more liberty for the citizens of the country, and feel they are doing a righteous battle.

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our little corner of western civilization has been around for a few hundred years. the folks in afganistan have been functioning for thousands of years under a tribal sort of structure. while we might not choose to live that way, you have to admit they have been quite successful in survival. trying to turn them into a branch of our civilization is totally foolhardy and a waste of billions of dollars to boot.

bush should have done everything possible to capture/kill OBL, in and out (great name for a hamburger joint), end of the story, action supported by virtually every government in the world. but no one claimed bush had a full load of logs.
 
Srengeti, you have to get an update on your numbers, Prentice has slipped wayyy lower reductions than the previously discussed 23% the way I understood it. Reason for this are major exceptions for basically all major and dirty industries including oilsands of course.

The question you and we all should ask ourselve is shouldn't we rather accept some cuts in our wealth and economic growth (which is not even proven yet if going greener even meant less wealth - some say there could be greater economic benefit to be had than clinging to the dirty past) for the sake of our planet? If a young and promising guy like you can't grasp this idea then who will save this planet? Waiting another 100 years until every and truly every resource on this planet has been turned up, mutilated, burnt and wasted for our precious evergrowing wealth, excess, selfishness and importance of economic growth. Doesn't this attitude make you sick in your stomach? Think about it and how much better you could do for this world by using your political career for the REAL important things. I am sure at the latest once you have your own kids and see them grow up and wanting a good world for them to live in, then you will understand me but I wish you wouldn't waste another minute by supporting this prevailing foolishness in our current world politics.
 
Those numbers I got were from an article yesterday...don't think he reduced it since then [:p]

And I'm not a big believer in climate change being man made...although we may increase it's progress slightly, climate change will MOST CERTAINLY not be the end of mankind as some crazy nutjob environmentalists claim. I have taken a couple courses on the subject, one actually called climate change and the real data and facts on it are quite eye popping!! But not in the way most of you would assume...

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If anyone believes global warming is not going on and we are not having an effect, you might want to do a little more research on that one? Are we going to completely stop it? Nope, nor can we stop anything else that is going to naturally occur, but we can slow it! We are not going to stop the next ice age or the “sun” from burning out either.

I am not even going to address the Geneva Convention(s), torture, CIA, or any actions of anyone involved in any branch of the military! Other than say, things do happen and are “quite” different for those individuals who are in the situation! And, while it is hard for most to understand, there is a very different thought process going on in those circumstances. Torture has been going on forever; sometimes it works, sometimes it don’t. I will assure “right or wrong” it will continue, by all countries! I personally have a problem with decapitation and heads put on display; also, with “Our” soldier’s bodies being stripped and dragged through streets and bodies being decimated, in every imaginable way. Many things happen which aren’t right? If one has even read the Geneva Convention(s), you will note the U.S. did ratify, but has a “reservation” on for that reason! As far as the U.S. is concerned a lot of those actions will carry the death penalty. That was done in 1955 due to the Korean conflict.

Afghanistan and Osama Bin Laden? It isn’t about oil fields or trying to make them a “branch of our civilization”, does anyone remember, why we sent troops there? Does anyone either know or realize, the U.S. actually supported, armed, and trained them, to include Bin Laden! Guess we should have sided with Russia on that one?

Iraq? If one believes there was no justification for the invasion of Iraq (which some Canadians did participate), you might want to do a little more homework… or maybe some values are just different than mine? I will concede there were several things that made Bush look foolish? I don’t think they ever found the “weapons of mass destruction”, which “Military Intelligence” was wrong there; however, the mass murder of over 400,000 people might be enough justification for me, and Bush was aware there. Military Intelligence got that one right! But then again, at this point I would be just fine with “pulling out” and let entire Middle East finishing killing each other and leave the rest of “us” alone!

BTW.. our little corner of western civilization has been around for over 15,000 years! In case you don’t know Canada and the U.S. are setting on top of more oil than the Middle East!
 
Very sad to hear that Serengeti, indeed. :( I cincerely hope for all of us there will be others.

Maybe you need more than 2 courses in climatology.
 
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