2010 Halibut Catch Recommendations

quote:Originally posted by searun

Ping pong paddle problem nails it...that's why the 1 fish limit doesn't work and is in fact counter productive to what the regulation is attempting to achieve. Exactly what is wrong with the current management protocols.

As we have debated on this forum endlessly - there ain't much hope of getting a larger share of the TAC...so we need to spend some effort exploring better ways to spread the available TAC out over a period of the season that benefits the majority of anglers...and that would appear to be June to August.
I'm on record preferring a 2 fish per day possession/catch limit with a maximum number per angler each year. If that is less than 10 so beit, but the one fish per day approach is encouraging the wrong outcome - that is, targeting the larger fish by anchoring up on the pinnacles and honey holes.

If that's not workable, then I hope someone out there has some better ideas...but I do know the status quo isn't good for either the fish or the fishers. One per day has got to go.

Searun

Thanks for sharing your opinion and I get your message. However, I don't agree on the June to August season as it is an unfair solution for a large number of anglers in BC plus many businesses that rely on the halibut resource for off-season income.

Perhaps we should look at this dilemma in a different more humorous way to show just how divisive this issue can become: [}:)]

With tongue firmly in cheek - please note I am joking around not recommending this:
For all Fisheries Management areas except 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 123, 124, 125, 126 and 127</u> the 2010 halibut season opens on Feb 1st and closes Dec 31 - 2 per day and 2 possession.

So with this option the fishery can open and close at traditional times and you get your 2 a day and 2 in possession. All we have to do is deep six (close year round) the west coast of VI and the rest of the coast is just fine thank you. HA! I can just feel the mushroom cloud forming as I write this. Bonus, this zany suggestion should keep the fishery below 790,000 lbs too. And with those above-mentioned areas being closed all year, think of all benefits. Imagine all the halibut that will be left in the water - all those big mama halis (100+ lbers) that won't be caught on the pinnacles and yes, those baby ping pong paddles that can grow to seed the rest of the surrounding ocean. All the gas/diesel that won't be burnt by running out to the offshore banks (Al Gore will just love us for cleaning up the atmosphere!) Let's not forget all the reports from WCVI in 2009 where the message was how fantastic the salmon fishing was all season long on WCVI, so there is no need for hali fishing anyway (halibut is afterall available fresh in the local grocery stores), right? Closing those area will also cut down on guides gifting their catch to clients, stop US halibut interlopers and not to forget US citizens setting up illegal guiding businesses too. Heck, might even stop illegal sales of sport caught fish there too and cut down on foreigners coming here to Canada and catching Canadians fish (resident priority access forever). Wow, it seems like such a little closure for a such lot of gain. [:eek:)][}:)];)

All joking aside - my warped divisive message here is a stark reminder that any suggestion of what "I" think is "right" is screwing with somebody's elses right to access halibut and someone's business income.

First we should let the IPHC hear from our Canadian commissioners, also let DFO work on a plan for a 2010 season where the least pain is felt as possible. They may just cave and find money who knows (most unlikely if we are recommending how to manage the season with 790,000 lbs i.e Jun to Aug)

DFO and the Fisheries Minister got us in the horrible mess. Let DFO and only DFO select which Canadians get screwed by the Thibault allocation debacle in 2010. I certainly don't want to prepare the rope that will hang us here so to speak. I do not want to advise DFO on who I feel should loose their opportunity to catch halibut. When DFO show us their proposed plan, the SFAB can voice their objection as loud as they can if the plan doesn't work. And ALL anglers in BC should close ranks to pressure DFO real real hard instead of hoping that all will turn out fine.

Their must be consequences for DFO - we, as anglers, have to stop being such apologists and letting DFO get away with screwing around unfairly with our fisheries. I can't stress that enough. If ever there was a time to make our point this is it. Allocation does NOT work for the sports sector period. Priority access is the answer. DFO ultimately want all species under individual transferable quota. Halibut is but the pilot. We are preparing here in Victoria for our next move.


Gov

God never did make a more calm, quiet, innocent recreation than angling - Izaak Walton
 
quote:Originally posted by fisher69

quote:Originally posted by Governor

quote:Originally posted by fisher69

quote:Originally posted by Governor

Which I read as IPHC Canada sport recommendation as 790,000 lbs for 2010.
This is down considerably from 918,000 in 2009. Plus remember there is no funding available for leasing additional quota next year.
Gov;
Are you sure about this? From what I understood we had $1.2mill in the bank. We needed to lease 120k so where did the rest of the money go?? My math is 120k*3.50 = $420,000 We should still have $780,000 in the bank. thats enough to lease 220,000lbs next year. Enough to scrape by and hope the numbers go up.

I am not making this stuff up you know. The chairman of the Main Board SFAB reported to the Victoria SFAB local committee (4th Nov) and the South Coast SFAB mtg (29th Nov) that there is virtually no money remaining for leasing commercial quota in 2010. I have no reason to disbelieve the reports either.


Gov



God never did make a more calm, quiet, innocent recreation than angling - Izaak Walton

I wouldn't suggest you made it up. I was just doing some scrap paper math and it wasn't adding up. Just thought you might know. Thanks
My post came across wrong - I simply wanted you to know I was using a good source for the statement I made. It incorrectly seemed a little harsh. [B)]
If I hear how the leasing situation went in 2009 I'll share it. You may want to consider that the DFO forecast at the beginning of 2009 was approx 1,450,000 lbs of sport catch with 2 per day and 2 possession full season (I think the math with those numbers works out quite different - just a suggestion).

Gov

God never did make a more calm, quiet, innocent recreation than angling - Izaak Walton
 
All joking aside - my warped divisive message here is a stark reminder that any suggestion of what "I" think is "right" is screwing with somebody's elses right to access halibut and someone's business income.

Your absolutly right here. Changing the 88/12 does screw with those that rely on halibut access as income :D:D


DFO and the Fisheries Minister got us in the horrible mess. Let DFO and only DFO select which Canadians get screwed by the Thibault allocation debacle in 2010.

Why should any canadians get screwed at all. Take some of the money DFO is pissing away on fish farms or native buy backs and use it to purchase some more halibut from the commercial sector.. win win


Gov

[/quote]
 
Gov, I'm planning getting ahold of several of the major players who target the early season halibut in area 19-20, to get some numbers on what thier client base is. I don't think we are going to get anywhere with the feds, so I need to find out who to write to as far as a provincial fisheries minister to see if they will shake loose with some money to keep this VERY IMPORTANT BC Tourism attraction going.

For gods sake, if they can spend 250K on that mess in front of Save On Foods,then they can shake loose with not much more then twice that to at least keep us fishing. One per day didn't make a signifigant dent in the bulk of the guides I deal with, so long as we are fishing for something, we can weather this storm.

Or, assuming we sell 30,000 annual sport fishing licenses this year, add a $21 charge to them to lease the 350,000 pounds of quota we need at $3.50 per pound, and have the feds/province match that amount.

Gov, do you know who on the provincial level we should speak to (Tourism Bigwig) to get a plan "b" together when Gail and her army of mis-management tell us to **** up a rope?

Last Chance Fishing Adventures

www.lastchancefishingadventures.com
www.swiftsurebank.com
 
well gov, i think the only thing you missed was shutting down all salmon fishing WCVI as those are 'our' fish headed for the columbia. since you think 'we' are taking too many of 'your' halibut, the least you can do is stop killing 'our' salmon. you should only have a salmon season on the inside of VI, that should solve that international issue once and forall. given that, you can keep your halibut [8D]
 
First we should let the IPHC hear from our Canadian commissioners, also let DFO work on a plan for a 2010 season where the least pain is felt as possible. They may just cave and find money who knows (most unlikely if we are recommending how to manage the season with 790,000 lbs i.e Jun to Aug)

DFO and the Fisheries Minister got us in the horrible mess. Let DFO and only DFO select which Canadians get screwed by the Thibault allocation debacle in 2010. I certainly don't want to prepare the rope that will hang us here so to speak. I do not want to advise DFO on who I feel should loose their opportunity to catch halibut. When DFO show us their proposed plan, the SFAB can voice their objection as loud as they can if the plan doesn't work. And ALL anglers in BC should close ranks to pressure DFO real real hard instead of hoping that all will turn out fine.

Their must be consequences for DFO - we, as anglers, have to stop being such apologists and letting DFO get away with screwing around unfairly with our fisheries. I can't stress that enough. If ever there was a time to make our point this is it. Allocation does NOT work for the sports sector period. Priority access is the answer. DFO ultimately want all species under individual transferable quota. Halibut is but the pilot. We are preparing here in Victoria for our next move.


Gov

God never did make a more calm, quiet, innocent recreation than angling - Izaak Walton


Bang on Governor!

FYI - based on the numbers I saw at a recent SFAB meeting, the 2009 total rec catch was 611,840 lbs by the end of July, and then 1,025,267 by the end of August. This works out to approx 13,780 lbs\day during August. I can't remember the details, but there are some adjustments made to the Canadian TAC before the rec allocation is calculated that will increase it slightly from 12% of 6.59 mlbs. For simplicities sake, lets assume it is a straight up 12% as the difference isn't that much.

Based on a rec allocation of 790,000 lbs, with no leasing opportunity and assuming similar catch rates to 2008 (one per day, 2 in possession, season start in March) the season would end on August 12th.

That being said, there is still an opportunity for Canada to make some headway in apportionment, and perhaps even negotiate a 2B catch limit higher than the recommended 6.59 mlbs. If I remembver correctly, this is just what has happened in the past two years - the actual catch limit for 2b is higher than the staff recommendations. Taking all that into account, we may just squeak by with a second or even third week of August season end if we limit ourselves to one per day.

Anyone getting nervous yet?

Fisher69:

All joking aside - my warped divisive message here is a stark reminder that any suggestion of what "I" think is "right" is screwing with somebody's elses right to access halibut and someone's business income.

Your absolutly right here. Changing the 88/12 does screw with those that rely on halibut access as income


DFO and the Fisheries Minister got us in the horrible mess. Let DFO and only DFO select which Canadians get screwed by the Thibault allocation debacle in 2010.

Why should any canadians get screwed at all. Take some of the money DFO is pissing away on fish farms or native buy backs and use it to purchase some more halibut from the commercial sector.. win win


Point #1 - I guess you're assuming that the only folks who depend on halibut for income are in the commercial sector? Wrong!

Point #2 - I couldn't agree more. Lets hope that somehow some form of compensated allocation transfer is possible. I'm not betting the farm on that one though.


Gooey.
 
quote:point #1 - I guess you're assuming that the only folks who depend on halibut for income are in the commercial sector? Wrong!

Nope not assuming anything. I am fully aware that the commercial rec sector needs fish as well to survive. Nothing would make me happier than to see the overall TAC go up so all user groups can carry on doing business.
That's one of the differences between the two groups, as the TAC has gone down commercial boats have had to make changes to survive and the rec sector has done nothing but try to change access so they are not impacted. Not very realistic thinking.
 
The rec sector would be happy to make changes if this was a conservation issue. It is not, it's an allocation issue, as a large sector was "gifted" a public resource.

Logging companies? They don't get those trees for free, they buy rights to cut them, or the land they are on.

Farmers? Unless you got there 200 years ago, they didn't get that land they use for free.

Miners? Yep, they have to pay to dig up our coal, and our gas and oil, you just don't sink a shaft in your uncle's back yard.

Crab Fishermen? I understand it's 7000 per foot of boat to buy a crab license!

Commerical Hali Fisherman? GREAT TIME TO BE ONE. Someone traditionally caught 50,000 pounds of hali per year in 2003? Well, his quota is worth 3.2 million dollars, assuming $60 per pound to buy it today. He shelled out NEXT TO NOTHING for it. Now, he can sit in Hawaii, and rent it out to anyone who wants to use it, and sell it at a %100 profit when he is done with it.

Nice gift for being a commercial fisherman in 2003. Yes, we are all hurting, however, if it was a public resource to be divided evenly and fairly, then the pain would be felt more evenly by all. If there is less hali available, then the price paid to commercial fishermen should invevitably go up. Someone else who fishes for them for a living in a different manor, on the other hand, has to park his boat and go flip burgers.



Last Chance Fishing Adventures

www.lastchancefishingadventures.com
www.swiftsurebank.com
 
The rec sector would be happy to make changes if this was a conservation issue. It is not, it's an allocation issue, as a large sector was "gifted" a public resource.

So we need to hit a conservation point before the rec sector is willing to make any changes? The BC TAC being reduced by 50% in 5 years is not a reason to think conservation...

Logging companies? They don't get those trees for free, they buy rights to cut them, or the land they are on.

Farmers? Unless you got there 200 years ago, they didn't get that land they use for free.

Miners? Yep, they have to pay to dig up our coal, and our gas and oil, you just don't sink a shaft in your uncle's back yard.

Crab Fishermen? I understand it's 7000 per foot of boat to buy a crab license!

Halibut fishermen... $1300/ft to buy the license and $35/lb to buy the quota then $.14/lb to dfo every year and approx $.24/lb for monitoring.

Commerical Hali Fisherman? GREAT TIME TO BE ONE. Someone traditionally caught 50,000 pounds of hali per year in 2003? Well, his quota is worth 3.2 million dollars, assuming $60 per pound to buy it today. He shelled out NEXT TO NOTHING for it. Now, he can sit in Hawaii, and rent it out to anyone who wants to use it, and sell it at a %100 profit when he is done with it.

IVQ's have been in since 1991 and transferrable since 1993. Sixteen years ago... Any idea how much quota has been bought and sold in 16 years. Not to mention that the 50,000lbs is now only 25,000lbs.. $60/lb where did that come from. try $35/lb. Again another crappy attempt at voodoo economics.

Nice gift for being a commercial fisherman in 2003. Yes, we are all hurting, however, if it was a public resource to be divided evenly and fairly, then the pain would be felt more evenly by all. If there is less hali available, then the price paid to commercial fishermen should invevitably go up. Someone else who fishes for them for a living in a different manor, on the other hand, has to park his boat and go flip burgers.

the commercial fleet has shrunk to less than 50% of it's original numbers. A big part of which was caused by a 50% reduction in TAC. Yet the sports numbers are up around %500. Get in line behind a commercial guy to flip burgers.
 
Go let the commercials flip burgers but let the Canadian public have THEIR resources. The commercials had TOO much halibut for free for TOO long. Enough is enough and don't think for second anyone except for themselves would feel sorry for them loosing quota to the Canadian public! Get over it fisher69, you are trying to untangle the mess from the WRONG end!
 
So we need to hit a conservation point before the rec sector is willing to make any changes? The BC TAC being reduced by 50% in 5 years is not a reason to think conservation...

For starters, I would not dare question the numbers of the IPHC, halibut is the only managed fishery on this coast that is not in the toilet.


The commercial fleet has exclusve access to the vast majority of the resource, and is able to do business under the proposed measures. This affects the very few individuals who get access to the 88% of a public resource. The current groundwork that was put into place did not take into consideration that a public resource owned by Canadians should be accessible by all Canadians, second only to conservation concerns. The groundwork did not properly take into consideration a key need of the recreational sector, and that is fair access to a public resource. A %50 reduction in 2 million pounds for 30,000 anglers is a hell of a lot more disruptive to more Canadians then a %50 reduction in the 10 or so million pounds made available to 400 or so commercial license holders at the time this framework as established. Each license holder was guaranteed a piece of the pie no matter what. Any way you slice it, there is a disproportionate division of a public resource.

Halibut fishermen... $1300/ft to buy the license and $35/lb to buy the quota then $.14/lb to dfo every year and approx $.24/lb for monitoring.

What was the price paid before 88/12 went into place. I understand it was somewhere between next to nothing, and nothing. $0.39 per pound translates into an operating cost of %1.1 of the total value of the quota. If that was a piece of heavy machinery, or any other business tool, insurance costs alone would be more then that percentage.

What we, as a rec sector have been told was it was a hell of a lot less then the market value of what a commercial allocation of the TAC is worth post 88/12. If a reasonable price was paid by the commercial license holders at the time for the quota they got, well, that changes a lot, and flies in the face of what has been explained to the recreational sector.

IVQ's have been in since 1991 and transferrable since 1993. Sixteen years ago... Any idea how much quota has been bought and sold in 16 years. Not to mention that the 50,000lbs is now only 25,000lbs.. $60/lb where did that come from. try $35/lb. Again another crappy attempt at voodoo economics.

$60 per pound was quoted to us in person by the DFO official in the fall of 2007 when the prospect of a reduced halibut season was brought to the attention of recreation anglers at the metting at Esquimalt Anglers, put on by SFAB. The price you mentioned was brought up by another angler, and seemed to be the market price except when purchase for the recreational sector was involved.

the commercial fleet has shrunk to less than 50% of it's original numbers. A big part of which was caused by a 50% reduction in TAC. Yet the sports numbers are up around %500. Get in line behind a commercial guy to flip burgers.

Which comes back to the original question, as we are facing a reduction in the resource, it's time to look again at the original 88/12 agreement, and see exaclty why 1.3% of Canadians get to utilize %88 of the resource.

Assuming the resource was adjusted to a still disproportionate 80/20, both groups would be able to utilise the resource. The floor for the sport sector at 1 per day, which was demonstrated to work quite nicely for all this year despite some bitching and moaning, can be achieved at 1.1 million pounds. Establishing a floor or re-adjusting the quota based on the data we have now would allow the recreational sector to operate, with an increase in quota being made available in the event that IPHC increases the TAC, which is still the long term plan. This is not the "fault" of the commercial sector, this is the result of some bad planning by the Federal Government.

They (the Feds) made the mess, they should fix it. And if it means that they must pay the commercial fishermen what their "gift" is currently worth, so be it, I'm not even SUGGESTING forcing someone to "give" back their "gift".

We are now at a point where one user group CAN NOT operate within the current framework, we need it adjusted to where both groups can still operate.

Last Chance Fishing Adventures

www.lastchancefishingadventures.com
www.swiftsurebank.com
 
You’re right, No sector can run at its original level when we loose 50% of the TAC let alone grow.

There is no guarantee that we are at the bottom of this decline. To cap the sports sector at 1.1 million so they can carry on business as usual doesn't quite seem fair either. Why should the commercial recreational businesses have guaranteed access on a resource that fluxuates?
 
quote:Originally posted by fisher69

You’re right, No sector can run at its original level when we loose 50% of the TAC let alone grow.


There is no guarantee that we are at the bottom of this decline. To cap the sports sector at 1.1 million so they can carry on business as usual doesn't quite seem fair either. Why should the commercial recreational businesses have guaranteed access on a resource that fluxuates?

It's not a matter of running at any particular level, it's a matter of running at all. The rec sector needs one fish per day to run. That translates into 1.1 million pounds. To run how we used to at 2 per day, three possession, would be nice, but not required. I'm not suggesting we get that back. We have had our access to the resource in a per angler basis cut in half, we are now facing a cut of more the half that per angler if you take into account a two month fishing season, which is what we are looking at.

And I would probably see it from a different side of the fence, if I was a "commercial recreational" fisherman, as you put it, and was "gifted" a quota based on my average catch when 88/12 came in. I'd simply have to limit the fish I catch my guests, and structure my business around that. I think it would work, I'd still be fishing, which is what I need to do. But since I'm a recreational angler who gets paid to take other recreational anglers fishing, that won't happen for me. I'm not sure where a "recreational commercial" angler comes in, any day of the week in Renfrew there are around 20 "guide" boats and 100 "recreational" boats.

I would see it as a trade off of risk. The recreational sector gets a guaranteed, if not limited catch, wheras the commercial sector gets the lions share the bulk of the time. The sport sector gets a cap at what works out to be less then %10 average of the available biomass.

The commercial fleet can work at 10 million pounds, 6 million pounds, and I'm willing to bet at 3 million pounds, as a large number of the licenses do not "work", they are a static asset that provides an income in the form of lease revenue. Much like an investment device. Much like the investment devices that tanked in 2008, there is the chance for great reward, and usually, a smaller chance of failure.

In a nutshell, the commercial fleet REQUIRES access to a large, marketable meat product caught in volume. The recreational sector requires ready access to a very small portion of the resource all of the time. The 88/12 would allow for this in times of abundance, but in times of scarcity, it effectivley destroys one group, while somewhat limiting another.

Why not put the commercial TAC back into a pool, an annual limit on sport halibut established, and halibut divided at the beginning of every season? EVERY one who wants to utilize the resource gets a portion of the TAC. That means every Canadian gets a shot of the resource. Why not? Becuase Bob in Saskatchewan is not likeley to use the resource. But Dave in Saskatchewan who owns "gifted" quota and leases it out is.

So a TAC with a floor will guarantee access to both groups, giving the commercial group an overall advantage to fish in a manner that benefits them economicly, and the sport group having it's biggist issue, that is, access at any time to a realativley limited, but accessible portion of the resource. And in the event that IPHC drops our catch down to 4 or 5 million pounds, I don't think the impact would be any more on the commercial fleet if we (The rec sector) got 1.1 million pounds, or 400,000 .






Last Chance Fishing Adventures

www.lastchancefishingadventures.com
www.swiftsurebank.com
 
I do see where you are coming from I just disagree on a few things. One is that there is probably not enough fish out there for the sports sector to continue on the way it has in any fishery. Also the commercial sports (lodge and charter) have had many years of "gifted" quota under the 88/12 to build their business. Perhaps they should have banked some of that money to use to aquire quota for down years like now.

That being said the dept knew years ago this was coming at them and did nothing to prepare for it. Limited number of guiding licenses, halibut stamps, tags, transfer funds... all stuff that could have been looked at.

I wou
 
I think we both at least agree the Feds could have done better with this. What we need to do now is pick up the pieces and get a system in place that will work for all. Even if it means Halibut tags, ala Salmon tags of yesteryear. However, this will require a backpeddle to before the quota system.

And if individual guides and lodges had the chance to buy quota for thier guests and clients, I'm sure they/we would do it. But then we are back to buying a common property resource, and around we go again.

If the quota system is to be applied to guides, do we get gifted a quota of halibut as well, based on our catch? And what about joe six pack? He isn't part of any of this, he just wants to go fishing. He should not have to buy a common resource from someone who it was gifted to.

Last Chance Fishing Adventures

www.lastchancefishingadventures.com
www.swiftsurebank.com
 
quote:Originally posted by LastChance

I think we both at least agree the Feds could have done better with this. What we need to do now is pick up the pieces and get a system in place that will work for all. Even if it means Halibut tags, ala Salmon tags of yesteryear. However, this will require a backpeddle to before the quota system.

And if individual guides and lodges had the chance to buy quota for thier guests and clients, I'm sure they/we would do it. But then we are back to buying a common property resource, and around we go again.

If the quota system is to be applied to guides, do we get gifted a quota of halibut as well, based on our catch? And what about joe six pack? He isn't part of any of this, he just wants to go fishing. He should not have to buy a common resource from someone who it was gifted to.

Last Chance Fishing Adventures

www.lastchancefishingadventures.com
www.swiftsurebank.com

Again I see your point. I guess my problem is I know young people that have spent good money and borrowed a fair bit to buy into the existing quota system because that is the way it is set up. Now we have some of the sports sector saying too bad, loose your house.. Well I guess the arguement goes both ways to guides that now don't have enough access to fish.

Either way it boils down to money and how dfo is planning to deal with this.
 
quote:Originally posted by fisher69


I do see where you are coming from I just disagree on a few things. One is that there is probably not enough fish out there for the sports sector to continue on the way it has in any fishery. Also the commercial sports (lodge and charter) have had many years of "gifted" quota under the 88/12 to build their business. Perhaps they should have banked some of that money to use to aquire quota for down years like now.

That being said the dept knew years ago this was coming at them and did nothing to prepare for it. Limited number of guiding licenses, halibut stamps, tags, transfer funds... all stuff that could have been looked at.

I wou
You are "kidding" right?
What are "you" thinking?
 
Sorry, but I think we have to acknowledge this is a conservation issue</u>. I cannot see how we in the Rec sector can stand here with all the published data clearly demonstrating the biomass is declining and still kid ourselves there isn't a conservation concern. Less isn't more, or at least it wasn't when I attended University sitting through those exciting [xx(] Statistical Analysis courses.

Its sounding a little self serving to argue that we deserve a larger share of the TAC at the expense of other users. I'm a charter operator and for the future of our fishery, I cannot support either side </u>in this continuing to catch the same number of fish when the biomass is in decline. Our mutual future (Commercial and Recreational) depends on enough fish successfully spawning to increase the population.

I mean no disrespect to guys trying to run a business and protect their interests and that of their customers, but I believe more strongly that we also have a duty </u>to future generations of anglers to do the right thing in the long term and not sacrifice that for short term interest.

So with that, in a spirit of conservation, please consider finding options that would allow the greatest conservation benefit for future generations, while preserving the best angling opportunity for the majority of all recreational anglers and not just a few trying to continue shoulder season fishing. In a perfect world we could keep everyone happy, but this isn't a perfect situation we face and one that calls for some sacrifice for the greatest possible benefit.

I'll sit back now and wait for the beatings to begin...give me your best shot. [B)]

Searun
 
Back
Top