Salmon farm eviction notice delivered by First Nation Leaders!

[Whole in the Water]

Hard to figure out completely what you are trying to say here. If you are saying we should let net pen salmon feedlots that pollute and spread disease continue as they are because they provide people with jobs, then what about all the lead miners laid off when we stopped putting lead in paint and gas, or the people that lost jobs making the CFC's that deplete the ozone layer, or the asbestos miners that lost their jobs in Quebec?

What about the long list of unsustainable industries like large scale clear cut forestry and drift net fishing to name a few that had to change to reduce their negative impacts.

Yes it is hard when people lose their jobs, but keeping polluting, disease spreading, environmentally unsustainable industries going is far worse in the long run for a much greater number of people then just those working in the industry.

The good news is it not an issue of shutting the fish farm industry down completely, but moving operations onto the land where it's negative environmental impacts can be better managed. People can still have jobs in fish farms, just have them do it on land. A Large number of industries have had to change to reduce their negative environmental impacts and net pen fish farms are no different.

 

[Fish Camp]

Nice of you to see the industry going that way.From donuts and coffee to containers loaded for overseas market ,I see them quiting us suddenly and us scrambling for new employment while a new southern buys the homes we no longer can afford ,north island everyone says hello to each other,when the new money and veiws move to the neighbourhood,you will find it a little more cold.whom to be evicted next from reigion waters?sportfishers?or maybe we as sportfishers could buy on our licence a first nation healing stamp with the $ they could build multi cultural low income reserves to protect us on the north island from poverty and relocation of what we grew up nowing as our home lands .remember theres not enough feed in our waters to sustaine pacific ranching salmon in bc we must contain our fish so others in puget and alaska can survive.

 

[Fish Camp]

when every fish is so important in bc , they should have washed boots at dockside

 

[Birdsnest]

http://www.mhssahousaht.ca/news/ahousaht-first-nations-why-we-support-salmon-farming

 

[shuswap]

Point taken, Admin. I had a reply, but I decided to delete it as there's no point as I'm done with this part now. We should get back on track. Sorry

 

[bones]

I dont understand a few things after reading.

Fish farms are breaking the law or not?
Fish farms are disease infested and passing it on to wilds. How? I worked farms and in the summer most of our death rate was due to low D/O and feeding.
If farms are killing the salmon stocks then why are there no fish returning to areas that have never seen a farm?

Just wondering as it looks like lots of finger pointing and I can only really see sea lice as the only real problem and farms are asked to pack up when the counts are to high...

 

[fogged in]

As Bones says he has actually worked at a Fish Farm I would ask what he thinks of this underwater video inside a fish farm?
http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2016/08/gotcha-2.html

 

[bones]

Shuswap...can you tell me what kind of fish carcass is this being handled by this Fish Farm employee and how it came to be in this state?
View attachment 29283

it's a dead fish, we used to call it a rag, then a football. looks like its summertime and fish are lost due to warm water and low DO. they get stressed anytime you look at them and then they die. that fish could be deceased orrrrr its just a loss due to stressful times. the problem farms are faced with in the summer time are huge. then extended sunlight grows huge plankton on the nets and left to long will mussel set, get heavy and be a 10-20,000 dollar loss. to avoid this nest get shored up or changed,and fish get stressed and some die. it's exactly like a hatchery seine set or a commercial fisher tightening there corks, fish go belly up.
now why does it look so disgusting and raggy? well put a salmon on a string in the summer lower it down to 40-50 wait 3-6 days and that's what you have ( more fish touching in one spot the faster they heat up and rot). wait another few days and the head and tail disappear and you get a "football".... doesn't mean it was diseased. on my farm in the summer i could fill a tote every second day and if the mort boat doesn't show up they tote heats up and fish go gross.

 

[hambone]

Bones, what's your take on the atlantics eating wild fish, especially the huge movement of fry/smolts in the spring? Did you ever find the Atlantic salmons stomach full of wild fish and not pellets?

 

[bones]

As Bones says he has actually worked at a Fish Farm I would ask what he thinks of this underwater video inside a fish farm?
http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2016/08/gotcha-2.html

i watched the video several times. she tries hard at disproving the industry by publicly speaking out ,but cannot give credit to anything she says...

the fish she shows at the beginning has an issue to the shoulder portion and she calls it a tumor? did she ask for it to research the issue? did she do a biopsy in the farms lab? no she makes a decision right there. the farm i managed had many fish like this and they would live for a year a two. in the wild it would have been taken care of by mother nature. in a 40-50,000 net pen the percentage would be less than 1.

so the processing tumor fights i have not had the pleasure to witness, but i can say we had our own processing plant and live hauled with oxygen, gill cut and cold water bled in a slurry , then processed, blood veins pushed clear, then iced styro toted and shipped within 24hrs fresh. the company i worked for were proud of there product.

"these are wild fish in the pen" all she needs to do is reach over to a dip net and scoop some up, but she doesn't, why? because there herring? firecrackers. she make the statement but does not show any proof and there right there. i don't see the hard evidence.

"a lot of disease floating out of these pens" so if pen #6 in the middle has a small problem with liver and the veterinary person is called out (yes they make house calls). why is it she only prescribes oxycot or TM200 to only pen 6. if the disease is floating out of the pens that badly wouldn't the vet prescribe meds to the whole system? why is it that the whole farm doesn't die off? hmmm because diseases are passed by contact or close proximity, thus only pen 6 needs the meds and a 60 days clearance to harvest.

"these fish are eating unnatural food" 30-40% of fish food is from fish!!!!!


i think the lady has a personal agenda and uses social media the get everyone riled up and what she says is her personal opinion because of the lack of evidence to back herself up. every "farm" has disease and fish farms are no different than that diseased chicken or steak you just ate. i can take a video camera down to a chicken farm and show the same things as in the video... oh no i cant there not as open to visitors like a fish farm.


did i do good fogged in?

 

[Clint r]

worked a few years on the kill floor of a chicken processing plant when I was young and bones comments are true. At least when it comes to chickens. Govt inspectors are the first in line on the cleaning side to check each bird to ensure no disease or illness in any of the birds. Farmers of course treat for illness but dealing with the sheer quantity of birds that they do there's always a few sick ones. those same govt inspectors record and document every type of illness or disease they find. Enough sick birds and they could shut your farm down. Don't know if Beef pork or fish are the same.

On a side note. No lies, we'd do between 17,000 and 22,000 birds a day, a huge amount in a year and I can't tell you how often we would get a chicken with three legs.

 

[fogged in]

Good on you for the reply
I still think Fish Farms are a disease and lice riddled industry and a threat to our wild salmon
Guess we will just have to agree to disagree, but respect you for your efforts to explain from your perspective

 

[Birdsnest]

Its a reality of farming animals. When you get into organic farming sickness is even more prevalent.

Its always interesting to hear from people who have decided to try to live off the grid-ish via farming their own animals. The truth is its hard. Its a lot of work and animals get sick and die. A common story from these people is they tried it and it wasn't very nice or efficient for them.

Morton exploits this fact about farming and to those who have never worked on a farm or spent any time with farm animals are generally naive and take the bait on this one. And of course the mort tote images and descriptions are effective but only effect those who don't have a clue about farming.
I go to a pig farm in AB and there is a pile of pigs in the back just that get left there for long periods. Its not nice either but its a fact with farming.

Bones also make a common observation with his pen 6 comments. How is it that pen 6 can show signs of sickness and the other pens remain fine?

Like I have said before it is not uncommon for a complete grow out cycle(group of fish raised to harvest) to not see medication during there life at all. So to say that bc salmon farms are disease riddled is absolutely false and a complete exaggeration of the facts. The same can be said for sea lice.

Interesting that while there is good solid research work being done currently on salmon disease(PSF) that there are those like FI above who absolutely believe that fish farms are disease ridden when it is clear that there is no evidence of this. This is perhaps why the anti campaigns generally rely on misleading information such as the most recent posts from morton for they don't have much factual information that supports their views and it is telling that they are willing to continue with the gross misrepresentations.

 

[shuswap]

Thanks for the informed reply, Bones. There is no science involved with this voyage. It's paparazzi with some TMZ. It's an edited video clip of a very small portion of the population. She has no idea what fish she is looking at - no different from the infamous tote where she was clearly wrong calling them wild salmon. I liked the claim made by critics that these wild fish were entrapped in the net but how did they get in the pen in the first place. Well, maybe the same way they got in. The by-catch argument and claim that fish farmers are purposely using these other fish species as food is silly. It would seem reasonable to me that a larger Atlantic salmon or even wild (or hatchery) Pacific salmon would be enticed to go after smaller juvenile fish species. It doesn't mean BC fish farmers are using for wild fish for fish food.

During this video there is no mention of the recent low dissolved oxygen event or the fact that feeding during this time was halted to reduce stress. Instead, Morton speculates that these fish have HSMI based on GoPro footage. That type of diagnosis is not done by video. She also carefully omits any of the current local research into PRV or provide any context to the potential findings of HSMI recently. Here it is:

http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?mthd=tp&crtr.page=1&nid=1069579

Morton apparently has never worked at a fish hatchery or she would know that not every fish behaves and looks the same. Also the development of disease is not as simple as she describes. There are other factors at play such as environmental conditions. Pathogens can find an opportunity with a stressed fish given the right environmental condition. This likely was the case with these morts but there are proper ways to go about finding out. Also, the staff that deal with these events are experienced with this. It's not the first time they have dealt with this. Hatchery staff have their own challenges with fish health. Taking 10 minutes of edited video and posting it on YouTube isn't the way to go about it. However, it did achieve its shock and awe purpose and manage to catch many fish in the public arena.

Lastly, it was rather shocking to see Morton describe the recent DFO enforcement of illegal by-catch by commercial fishermen as "harassing" then to link it to her by-catch argument with fish farmers. She kind of downplays this illegal by-catch by commercial fishermen as just a couple of wild fish aboard. Not sure I would call tens of thousands of dollars worth of fish as "just a couple of wild fish aboard". For someone that is perpetrated as a champion for wild salmon I find her comments on this as ignorant and out of touch with other ENGOs like Watershed Watch Salmon Society which are much more vocal in their opposition to illegal fishing - not just fish farms. I may not agree with everything WWSS says, but at least they are not just fixated on aquaculture. In my opinion, her toned down comments towards this illegal fishing was to retain support from commercial fishermen in her fight....so basically look the other way and hope for support the other direction. For me, I will follow and support the real science being done by the Strategic Salmon Health Initiative and not Pam's Paparazzi Tour.

 

[Thunder21]

I don't know enough about farms to say if they are bad or not but I have to think they are definitely having a negative impact. Having said that, It's concerning to me that the natives feel they have the right to "evict" anyone off the water . I wonder what is next? To me this almost seems like a way for the natives to deflect the bigger issue of them over netting in the spawning grounds of the salmon for the last however many years. The returns are terrible this year and everyone is pointing fingers. I feel like if the natives really wanted to make a statement and be heard they should clean up their act and lead by example on the conservation of the salmon and not carry on like they have been. The farms being on land would probably be a good thing but is that really the biggest issue here? I have a hard time believing that is going to magically make the salmon reappear.

 

[hambone]

I've yet to ever meet someone in the industry who is willing to eat the product. The closest I've heard is its ok smoked.

The pro farmers can stop deflecting every conversation into calling out the character of Alex Morton, saying the world needs more food and now recently saying of course there's going to be a pile of freak fish because it's a farm and that's just how it works.

The net pen industry has no doubt improved since it first arrived on this coast, but its taken a wicked toll on wild salmon. It disgusts me that people can stick up for an industry that has literally used wild salmon to feed their farmed product for several decades! Farm workers on the Sunshine Coast used to talk about farmed salmon plugged full of wild smolts each and every spring, free food! The sechelt inlet now has so little salmon it's a joke.

This industry is a perfect example of one that we will look back on in 50 years and shake our heads at and wonder how we let this happen.

If the world needs more food lets put our money and effort into enhancing the wild system that has been bringing back salmon to this coast for thousands of years.

 

[hambone]

The worlds needs food so let's kill wild fish make pellets and produce farmed salmon at a major net protein loss.....? Meanwhile polluting the surrounding marine environment with antibiotics, chemicals and ****. Hundreds of thousands of fish shitting beneath their pens creating a situation so gross nothing will even live down there for years.

Sounds like a flawless industry, saving the world from starvation!

 

[high tide]

nothing but a big Money a Maker for big business, period.

Past and present government officials should be held accountable for the negative affects these sea based pens have caused. But that won't happen. In the mean time the rich like Pattison keep rubbing their hands together with big smiles. Corporate greed and nothing more. Put them on land or be rid of them, forever. That's truly the only choice.

People including many FN need to band together and take a stand. But, these pens are out of site and out of mind for most Canadians, so realistically this will not happen. Protests should be huge at restaurants and facilities that store and ship these penned invaders. Shout loud and proud, but we are Canadian, and never have we been able to hold Gov accountable, it's always pushed away and forgotten.

Gov continues to do nothing in regards to building our wild stocks to what they were. Our grand children will ask, " what we're they thinking"

Yuk.

 

[bones]

Lol..... Always a nice debate when fish farms topics show up

Where is it written that we harvest wild fish to be cut up and fed to farmed fish????

I ask show me where this written?


"Use of more fish trimmings
In 2015, 32 percent of the marine ingredients used in EWOS feeds were from fish trimmings. That is an increase of almost 10 percent in five years. This raw material has become available as a result of supplier development programmes and screening from Cargill Innovation.

“Trimmings and by-products from fish are an ideal raw material for fish feed,” Wathne said. It is the natural food for fish, it can often be sourced locally and it upcycles materials that would have otherwise gone to waste into healthy and delicious food.”

 

[agentaqua]

Fish farms are breaking the law or not?

Likely not - however no 3rd party monitoring for many things - so harder to prove. In addition - it's the lack of appropriate risk assessment and mitigation tools applied to the application and operations that also makes it difficult to assess this.

Fish farms are disease infested and passing it on to wilds. How? I worked farms and in the summer most of our death rate was due to low D/O and feeding.

2 words Bones: "Open net-cages" that's how. Everything goes back and forth. W/o adequate testing of wild salmon - you wouldn't know.

If farms are killing the salmon stocks then why are there no fish returning to areas that have never seen a farm?.

Fisheries management is complex and there are many compounding issues. Wrt wild/cultured stock interactions - the effects of things like diseases influences larger spatial/geographic processes.

"a lot of disease floating out of these pens" so if pen #6 in the middle has a small problem with liver and the veterinary person is called out (yes they make house calls). why is it she only prescribes oxycot or TM200 to only pen 6. if the disease is floating out of the pens that badly wouldn't the vet prescribe meds to the whole system? why is it that the whole farm doesn't die off? hmmm because diseases are passed by contact or close proximity, thus only pen 6 needs the meds and a 60 days clearance to harvest.

The vet would be concerned about the cultured fish - and those ones that have developed a "diseases" - and the costs of treatment Bones - or I would expect. The seriousness of the disease outbreak depends upon the organism causing the disease and its' virulence - among other interacting influences.

"these fish are eating unnatural food" 30-40% of fish food is from fish!!!!!

Ya - kinda a dumb quote. I think the only point is why do farm fish have elevated levels of contaminants?

i think the lady has a personal agenda and uses social media the get everyone riled up and what she says is her personal opinion because of the lack of evidence to back herself up. every "farm" has disease and fish farms are no different than that diseased chicken or steak you just ate. i can take a video camera down to a chicken farm and show the same things as in the video... oh no i cant there not as open to visitors like a fish farm.

Agreed. I think the only major difference is the water itself as a transported of disease vectors - and the impossibility of providing a barrier with the open net-cage technology - verses what is possible wrt disease security protocols as many farms.