Guiding Insurance and Limitations RE: TUNA

[coastalmarinesafety]

So being in contravention of TC by guiding you are still insured? Very odd!!

I think it's important for commercial operators to know the difference between 1) an insurance agent, who basically sells on behalf of an underwriter and may get a cut of every product they sell, like a car salesmen... and 2) the underwriter investigators, who are specialists at using the fine print to determine if a claim gets paid out or not.
The insurance agent isn't a marine safety regulation expert, as they sell all kids of insurance. The underwriter investigators likely are and know the diffence between pleasure craft regulations and those for passenger carrying vessels. Depends on the fine print of your commercial policy to what extent they would investigate it... for example if you sign off on fine print that says something like "policy owner will comply with all applicable marine safety regulations" in the case of offshore guiding, that means you can't go beyond Near Coastal II (25NM from shore) without some sort of unique certificate with that type of allowance for the operator and the vessel. Also, the TC simplified stability test (one some have done themselves) restricts a small commercial vessel to 25NM from shore, so that may affect some tuna guides as well.

If the 25NM cutoff rule is an impediment to business, as others have said, a guide association or larger sport fishing advocate group would have to represent the guiding community at marine safety advisory meetings with the lawmakers.

It's how the other marine industries (tugs, ferries, commercial fishermen, etc.) get their voice heard with issues that affect their businesses.

 

[trophywife]

Wow,, finally got my rider.. Added 250.00 to my policy.. Tuna charters are now possible!! Seems insurers are willing to take money and disregard TC guidelines. She also informed that this was tenth one this year she had added..

So for all you guides that want to do tuna charters... Get on it!!

I am booking trips only if customers book three days salmon/halibut and "if" the weather window permits. Havent figured out the up-charge for extra fuel and time..

 

[Birdsnest]

Wow,, finally got my rider.. Added 250.00 to my policy.. Tuna charters are now possible!! Seems insurers are willing to take money and disregard TC guidelines. She also informed that this was tenth one this year she had added..

So for all you guides that want to do tuna charters... Get on it!!

I am booking trips only if customers book three days salmon/halibut and "if" the weather window permits. Havent figured out the up-charge for extra fuel and time..

Well there ya go!! Congrats. More opportunity for the public to participate in such a wonderful bounty, if the stars line up of course.

 

[BruceSt]

Looking into that very question. No answers yet. SVOP is Near Coastal 1 or 25 miles. Your certificate will specify ocean operating conditions your vessel is licensed to be out in. They vary. My insurance has a trade limit out to approx 70 miles. Broker said it was ok. I have asked for clarification in writing for commercial operations. Regular personal operation isn't in question. Meantime I will not do any charters for tuna.

SVOP is good for Near Coastal Voyage, Class 2, not 1. Class 2 is within 25 miles of shore. Class 1 is within 200 miles from shore or above the continental shelf. TP14070, page 13.

 

[BruceSt]

For those who are asking about the Limited Master <60GT, the voyage limits are Near Coastal, Class 2, which is 25 miles from shore. For Near Coastal, Class 1, the Master 150 Gt is required. See Table 4.1 below from TP14070

 

[BC Coast Pilot]

You're exactly right. I doubt there's many guides with the correct certification for Tuna

 

[trophywife]

You're exactly right. I doubt there's many guides with the correct certification for Tuna

easy to add a rider and pay the money.. i wonder if there would actually be coverage.. they took my 250.00 add on.

 

[BruceSt]

easy to add a rider and pay the money.. i wonder if there would actually be coverage.. they took my 250.00 add on.

If I was wondering if there would be coverage, I wouldn't pay for a rider. You would be operating beyond TC limits.

 

[BC Coast Pilot]

easy to add a rider and pay the money.. i wonder if there would actually be coverage.. they took my 250.00 add on.

Two different things. Insurance is just that and it's expected by your underwriter that you have the correct certification for the venture you are embarking on which ties into what
BruceSt is talking about which is Transport Canada certification when departing/returning from/to a Canadian port with passengers under the Canada Shipping Act.
They care not about your insurance, but would certainly levy a fine. Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[Rain City]

Two different things. Insurance is just that and it's expected by your underwriter that you have the correct certification for the venture you are embarking on which ties into what
BruceSt is talking about which is Transport Canada certification when departing/returning from/to a Canadian port with passengers under the Canada Shipping Act.
They care not about your insurance, but would certainly levy a fine. Don't shoot the messenger.

Would the same apply to a rec boater operating a vessel without a PCOC? Because if so, I bet there's thousands of people boating uninsured right now.

 

[BC Coast Pilot]

Would the same apply to a rec boater operating a vessel without a PCOC? Because if so, I bet there's thousands of people boating uninsured right now.

Good question.
Like driving a car without a license. Would ICBC cover you?
Up to the underwriter (if they figured it out) I guess. Keep in mind the PCOC comes from a different part of the ACT.

 

[Gong Show]

Most insurance policies have an exclusion around non-compliant or illegal situations that then incur a loss.

Just as posted above, ICBC will not cover you if you are not licenced, impaired, fleeing from a hit and run or ???
But, if the underwriter knows that you are running tuna charters outside TC limits and accepts your premium payment, there is an argument that they are accepting the risk and underwriting that operation.
I would advise a theoretical client to get that in writing from the broker and some sort of acknowledgement from the underwriter, and then still advise that there is risk to the theoretical client.

 

[BC Coast Pilot]

Most insurance policies have an exclusion around non-compliant or illegal situations that then incur a loss.

Just as posted above, ICBC will not cover you if you are not licenced, impaired, fleeing from a hit and run or ???
But, if the underwriter knows that you are running tuna charters outside TC limits and accepts your premium payment, there is an argument that they are accepting the risk and underwriting that operation.
I would advise a theoretical client to get that in writing from the broker and some sort of acknowledgement from the underwriter, and then still advise that there is risk to the theoretical client.

Which doesn't exclude the fines from TC. Sign here(waiver mentions death 4 times on page 1)

 

[Gong Show]

I think we might see this play out in real life with the Ocean Gate Titan loss.

 

[wildmanyeah]

Would the same apply to a rec boater operating a vessel without a PCOC? Because if so, I bet there's thousands of people boating uninsured right now.

i haven't stayed current on it since i took my power sailing course in 2006 that included the PCOC but i thought over a certain boat size you don't need it.

i remember there was this whole thing of you don't need it to drive your boat but you need it to drive your dingy to shore.

Edit: Nvm "Everyone who operates a power-driven boat needs proof of competency"

 

[wildmanyeah]

I think we might see this play out in real life with the Ocean Gate Titan loss.

the company is going to declare bankruptcy 100%

 

[BruceSt]

Pretty sure the 60 ton ticket is designed to be specific to a certain vessel, even though this isn't how it's normally used. You need sea time (30 or 60 days I forget), Chartwork 1 and Nav safety and you need to pass orals.

The orals IMO would be the one thing that would make a 60ton ticket holder more valid. They have proved to someone they know what they are doing.

Not saying I agree with it... But what other way is there to prove your qualified? You don't record sea time with an SVOP.

You should definitely be recording your sea time for the SVOP. When the new SVO come into effect, there are exemptions that can be granted with proof of sea time. That is the latest proposal I have seen from TC.

 

[BruceSt]

Originally Posted by trophywife
60 tonne ticket and insured? i am working on this so i can tuner guide..




It looks like this thread needs to be started.

I am fairly familiar with the "elements" involved with the tuna fishing and this 25 mile limitation for svop operators has caught me off guard. Not that I am guiding tuna but I do guide occasionally and certainly interested in having the "discussion". As a commercial operator for 20 some years now I have always done my best to be 100% compliant including getting "C" numbers and the appropriate operating certification. I must say that it if frustrating to see all the guiding that takes place by individuals that do not carry proper registration or insurance. Having said that it is even more frustrating that the amount of enforcement is pretty much dismal. Another disappointment is even insurance companies selling this insurance are not aware of this restriction. So ya its been said now and I hope to see a constructive discussion. I am wondering what some of the professional guide associations/certification agencys have to say about this.

So what makes a 60 ton ticket holder more qualified to be out there?

SVOP and Limited Master<60 ton are both Near Coastal, Class 2 See below from TP 14070 Chapter 4

 

[BC Coast Pilot]

SVOP and Limited Master<60 ton are both Near Coastal, Class 2 See below from TP 14070 Chapter 4View attachment 94119

What you're seeing in TP14070 is just the MED requirements to get such a certificate, so if you don't have the higher MEDS then clearly you're not NC2. Validity of certificates is listed in TP2293E
If it is not listed there then it is certificate specific and listed on the certificate, you will find the latter is the case with the master limited. Part of being a certificate holder is an obligation to know it's limitations, usually it is asked or verified in the orals

 

[Gong Show]

What you're seeing in TP14070 is just the MED requirements to get such a certificate, so if you don't have the higher MEDS then clearly you're not NC2. Validity of certificates is listed in TP2293E
If it is not listed there then it is certificate specific and listed on the certificate, you will find the latter is the case with the master limited. Part of being a certificate holder is an obligation to know it's limitations, usually it is asked or verified in the orals

Talk to me like a bureaucrat
I know you're not, but talk to me like a bureaucrat anyway, hubba hubba