scott craven
Well-Known Member
Huh ? [?]
Do Salmon Hatcheries Work?
- Thread starter Sushihunter
- Start date
Huh ? [?]
I happen to believe strongly in the need for more fish hatcheries.
Keep in mind that The Tyee is a very left-wing newspaper/website, and it's editorials/news is heavily slanted to the left and various eco-loony opinions.
Sushihunter you have a gift with words. A left wing newspaper/website? No, say it ain't so. I also happen to agree that the only way from here is more hatcheries. I was talking to a local guide in Oregon. He thinks the best chance to regain the numbers is with private citizens sponsoring fish boxes. If you live on a tributary the ODFW may choose to set you up with a 2000 egg fish box. You might be able to help strengthen the runs to sustainable numbers. Wild fish are great but most of those runs have been depleted beyond return. Ocean and River conditions are also part of the picture. You could always do it the way they do here in Oregon and let the Gillnetters have at them until the rivers have to be closed. In California they closed off most of the coast. Some brain dead a-hole forgot to protect this record {miniscule} run in the Sacramento river. Goober Swartzeneger really let that one slip by.
Clinging to my Guns and Religion. www.KoneZone.com
Keep in mind that The Tyee is a very left-wing newspaper/website, and it's editorials/news is heavily slanted to the left and various eco-loony opinions.
Sushihunter you have a gift with words. A left wing newspaper/website? No, say it ain't so. I also happen to agree that the only way from here is more hatcheries. I was talking to a local guide in Oregon. He thinks the best chance to regain the numbers is with private citizens sponsoring fish boxes. If you live on a tributary the ODFW may choose to set you up with a 2000 egg fish box. You might be able to help strengthen the runs to sustainable numbers. Wild fish are great but most of those runs have been depleted beyond return. Ocean and River conditions are also part of the picture. You could always do it the way they do here in Oregon and let the Gillnetters have at them until the rivers have to be closed. In California they closed off most of the coast. Some brain dead a-hole forgot to protect this record {miniscule} run in the Sacramento river. Goober Swartzeneger really let that one slip by.
Clinging to my Guns and Religion. www.KoneZone.com
Sushihunter
Active Member
KoneZone: I happen to agree with you - We need more hatcheries, and we need the existing hatcheries brought up to full capacity as soon as possible.
Not sure if you were agreeing with me, or just poking a bit of fun at me for my description of The Tyee newspaper/website.
Having just gone through the site and checking out a number of articles - I stand by my original statement - they lean to the left.
The reason I mentioned it in my first posting of the hatchery article, was because they do not seem to support hatcheries. They want to use "Wild fish". Anyone ever tell them that hatchery fish are taken from the wild stock? There is no difference in the genetics. The only thing that happens is that the fish are supported so that more of them survive to reach the ocean when they are released. Otherwise they would die from bird and other predator predation, and whatever else can befall a young fry as it heads for salt water.
Every time I have had the ear of one of our MP's I have told them that we need more hatcheries.
Let's hope that someone will do something... soon.
Jim's Fishing Charters
www.JimsFishing.com
http://ca.youtube.com/user/Sushihunter250
do hatcheries work???? depends on what you mean!
sure they produce millions of smolt raised in concrete raceways, feed with automatic pellet machines, (BTW it takes 3-4 pounds of fish meal to produce 1 pound of hatchery fish) and have returns that are statistically insignificant.
experimentation with 'natural spawning channels' into which the smolt are placed to fend for themselves prior to release tend to produce better returns. but the definitive data are a long way out on this technique.
plugging any eco system with 'foreign' fishes reduces the carrying capacity of that eco system. thats a fancy way of saying hatchery raised fishes displace wild fishes, that is not a good thing.
couple that with nature, over the eons, returning fishes to various waterways at staggered times during the year to protect those stock from floods, droughts, volcanic eruptions and whatever else might occur, which produced a robust continuing stock of fish.
now contrast that with the convience of a hatchery program which fertilizes and raises the smolt for the convience of dumping in a short window of time. after all the fishing industry, commercial and sport, all expect 'their' fish during specific times during the year!
now lets mix in non selective harvest and an inability to accurately predict run sizes, and there you have it, no fish! and thats about where we are right now. at the end of the day, the hatcheries can ramp up to mega production which will lead to a greater demand for harvest, using non selective methods, which will in turn continue to produce depressed runs of fish everywhere you look.
there ain't no simple solution here. its a complex problem all of us are a part of and no hatchery system on the planet is going to solve the problem of stock extinction.
sure they produce millions of smolt raised in concrete raceways, feed with automatic pellet machines, (BTW it takes 3-4 pounds of fish meal to produce 1 pound of hatchery fish) and have returns that are statistically insignificant.
experimentation with 'natural spawning channels' into which the smolt are placed to fend for themselves prior to release tend to produce better returns. but the definitive data are a long way out on this technique.
plugging any eco system with 'foreign' fishes reduces the carrying capacity of that eco system. thats a fancy way of saying hatchery raised fishes displace wild fishes, that is not a good thing.
couple that with nature, over the eons, returning fishes to various waterways at staggered times during the year to protect those stock from floods, droughts, volcanic eruptions and whatever else might occur, which produced a robust continuing stock of fish.
now contrast that with the convience of a hatchery program which fertilizes and raises the smolt for the convience of dumping in a short window of time. after all the fishing industry, commercial and sport, all expect 'their' fish during specific times during the year!
now lets mix in non selective harvest and an inability to accurately predict run sizes, and there you have it, no fish! and thats about where we are right now. at the end of the day, the hatcheries can ramp up to mega production which will lead to a greater demand for harvest, using non selective methods, which will in turn continue to produce depressed runs of fish everywhere you look.
there ain't no simple solution here. its a complex problem all of us are a part of and no hatchery system on the planet is going to solve the problem of stock extinction.
I disagree there is a simple solution and it is being used to the north of us.. It's called ocean ranching.
The long and short is that Alaska took some wild stock to an inlet that is fed by a waterfall. There they set up a hatchery where they now produce millions of eggs that are hatched and put in pens in remote inlets around PWS to be imprinted. The fish that are imprinted return to the pen where they are released from. The commercial fleet is allowed to access the pinks and chums and the sports focus on the springs and coho.
When the stocks start to show up in the summer, the revenue from the first fish taken by the commercial fleet is used to fund the hatchery. When the funding requirements and escapement needs are met the commercial fleet is given access to those fish. With the imprinted fish returning to the pens where they were released from this allows the natural stock to rebuild.
Not so hard but it would take a few million to start it up. The fisherman up there have taken a loan from Gov't to get this going and the proceeds from fish sales are slowly paying off.
There is a fair bit more to it so I would encourage others to look at the websites rather than shoot the messenger.... which is common on this form
Charlie
Well-Known Member
Okay… so, you finally got me into this one!
All the above are correct statements and all points are valid! But, if you do your research you will find that "our" global environment is ever changing and we are not going to stop the changes we have no control over. The only thing we can do is “help” in protecting “our” environment!
Hatcheries are slowing the evolution of the inevitable extinction of these fisheries! As stopping pollution in our rivers and oceans are also! We all need to do our part!
It is a known “fact” that every species on earth, even humans will evolve and go extinct! Yes, humans will go extinct… just as the salmon will! Just as the dinosaurs did! It is part of evolution. Global warming will happen. Water levels will rise. Ice ages will come back. Meteorites will hit the earth. These things we can’t change! But, we can still help save “our” environment and slow these processes down. Do I want to see it…? No! Can we slow the process? Yes!
Do hatcheries work? Yes!
Do we need them and more of them? Yes!
But will all the above happen? Yes! We just need to do our part to help slow the process and protect "our" environment as long and as best we can!
juandesooka
Active Member
I think you raise some good points. I'm no expert, learning more about this as I go, but a few devil's advocate questions...
Does it take any less bait fish does to produce 1 pound of wild fish? If it takes 100 pounds of fish meal to raise a 30 pound hatchery chinook, if it also takes 100 pounds of herring, is there any significant difference?
Why would the fish produced by a hatchery be any less likely to return to spawn than a wild fish? Are you suggesting that, due to selection bias, the hatcheries are producing a genetically inferior strain, less able to survive?
If eggs and milt are taken from a pair of spawning wild salmon in a river, why are their hatchery raised smolts "foreign"?
How much displacement of wild stocks is there when there is close to zero returns in a year like last year?
Can the wild salmon bounce back on their own from the "perfect storm" of massive improvements in fishing technology, human population explosion, industrialization and pollution, logging and urbanization eliminating habitat, and climate change impacting ocean and rivers? Should we wait it out and let nature take its course, even if it means extinction from rivers? How many generations does it take, if ever, for wild salmon to reclaim a dead river?
Umm...don't salmon spawn at THEIR own times, based on their biology and the climate conditions? The hatcheries have to work with the fish as they arrive. Can salmon return times be staggered during the year in a river, as you suggest above?
If I have you correctly, you're saying hatcheries are contributing to extinction, and if ramped up, would start causing it?
Agreed, on the complexity front. If it were as simple as let's all agree to stop fishing for a generation and let the salmon regenerate, then maybe we'd have something. That's clearly not going to happen, and even if it did, what about all the other problems, the logging, urbanization, industrialization, and climate change? Is stopping fishing enough?
I understand your arguments, but I think you are focusing on the possible harm that might come from hatcheries rather than the immediate and obvious positive things they produce -- salmon spawning in the rivers and salmon being caught in the ocean (this is a fishing forum, after all).
My vote is the hatcheries good work outweighs the harm. My vote is do what I can now, rather than waiting and seeing and hoping and praying, only to see salmon disappear from our rivers and me saying "jeez, I sure wish I had done something to help".
For me, I am focusing on what I can personally do to help, not complaining at coffeeshops or writing letters to politicians or yelling at meeting. I am getting involved in my local hatchery. And when I see those chinooks released in the Sooke River next year, I will be mighty proud 4 or 5 years later if I have the luck to catch one of them on their return trip. And I'll be proud to see any of you catch one too, reelfast included.
Does it take any less bait fish does to produce 1 pound of wild fish? If it takes 100 pounds of fish meal to raise a 30 pound hatchery chinook, if it also takes 100 pounds of herring, is there any significant difference?
Why would the fish produced by a hatchery be any less likely to return to spawn than a wild fish? Are you suggesting that, due to selection bias, the hatcheries are producing a genetically inferior strain, less able to survive?
quote
If eggs and milt are taken from a pair of spawning wild salmon in a river, why are their hatchery raised smolts "foreign"?
How much displacement of wild stocks is there when there is close to zero returns in a year like last year?
Can the wild salmon bounce back on their own from the "perfect storm" of massive improvements in fishing technology, human population explosion, industrialization and pollution, logging and urbanization eliminating habitat, and climate change impacting ocean and rivers? Should we wait it out and let nature take its course, even if it means extinction from rivers? How many generations does it take, if ever, for wild salmon to reclaim a dead river?
Umm...don't salmon spawn at THEIR own times, based on their biology and the climate conditions? The hatcheries have to work with the fish as they arrive. Can salmon return times be staggered during the year in a river, as you suggest above?
If I have you correctly, you're saying hatcheries are contributing to extinction, and if ramped up, would start causing it?
Agreed, on the complexity front. If it were as simple as let's all agree to stop fishing for a generation and let the salmon regenerate, then maybe we'd have something. That's clearly not going to happen, and even if it did, what about all the other problems, the logging, urbanization, industrialization, and climate change? Is stopping fishing enough?
I understand your arguments, but I think you are focusing on the possible harm that might come from hatcheries rather than the immediate and obvious positive things they produce -- salmon spawning in the rivers and salmon being caught in the ocean (this is a fishing forum, after all).
My vote is the hatcheries good work outweighs the harm. My vote is do what I can now, rather than waiting and seeing and hoping and praying, only to see salmon disappear from our rivers and me saying "jeez, I sure wish I had done something to help".
For me, I am focusing on what I can personally do to help, not complaining at coffeeshops or writing letters to politicians or yelling at meeting. I am getting involved in my local hatchery. And when I see those chinooks released in the Sooke River next year, I will be mighty proud 4 or 5 years later if I have the luck to catch one of them on their return trip. And I'll be proud to see any of you catch one too, reelfast included.
For the sake of clarity I will state for the record. I am for more hatcheries and wish they would fill them up with fish now! Sushihunter I would be proud to share the rail with you anytime be it boat or bar.</u> God Bless North America and one if it's prize possession's. The Salmon!
Clinging to my Guns and Religion. www.KoneZone.com
Clinging to my Guns and Religion. www.KoneZone.com
Good reply, juandesooka!
Just a few comments: Because the hatchery fish achieve a way higher smolt survival rate than wild smolts would ever see, some of the hatchery smolts are not the strongest and fittest as would have to be if wild when going through the natural selection process. But once released, all smolts - hatchery and wilds - face the same pressures and here is were many of those not so fit and strong little hatchery salmon fare worse than wilds. Therefore, overall the hatchery fish have a relative smaller escapement level than the wilds. However, a lot is made up with the higher initial number of the hatchery smolts so that at the end you may still see a way higher total return of hatchery fish just because you brought so many through this first critical stage alive. A hatchery program with very few initial fish can also cause genetical issues with interbreeding and thus reducing the fitness level. But that's usually only the problem when the numbers are way down.
To reseed a blank river eggs or fry may be taken from another stream which is always very difficult and most often doesn't achieve good results. In fact it often fails completely. Western European rivers once full of salmon face this problem for years.
Just a few comments: Because the hatchery fish achieve a way higher smolt survival rate than wild smolts would ever see, some of the hatchery smolts are not the strongest and fittest as would have to be if wild when going through the natural selection process. But once released, all smolts - hatchery and wilds - face the same pressures and here is were many of those not so fit and strong little hatchery salmon fare worse than wilds. Therefore, overall the hatchery fish have a relative smaller escapement level than the wilds. However, a lot is made up with the higher initial number of the hatchery smolts so that at the end you may still see a way higher total return of hatchery fish just because you brought so many through this first critical stage alive. A hatchery program with very few initial fish can also cause genetical issues with interbreeding and thus reducing the fitness level. But that's usually only the problem when the numbers are way down.
To reseed a blank river eggs or fry may be taken from another stream which is always very difficult and most often doesn't achieve good results. In fact it often fails completely. Western European rivers once full of salmon face this problem for years.
Sushihunter
Active Member
[:I][:I][:I]
Thanks, KZ!
If you ever come up to Tahsis to fish, perhaps we can make that happen.
Jim's Fishing Charters
www.JimsFishing.com
http://ca.youtube.com/user/Sushihunter250
net pens first:
- 200,000 fish in a net pen produce the equivalent waste of 600,000 humans prior to their harvest. ever drive past one of those mega stock feed lots? that is exactly what the ocean floor looks and smells like. and no, the tides and currents don't dispurse this waste. just take a look at where net pens are located, sheltered waters. any fish that happens past is infected with lice and whatever else is in the vicinity.
- fish meal is produced by catching 'bait' fish. wonder why the herring stocks are tanking??? a wild fish, smolting, is feeding on a food chain that is indiginous to the eco system in which they happen to be. you konw, various insects, sculpins and whatever it can forage. as a result, only the smolt that are the fittest survive to migrate and return. concrete fish are ALL released, no natural selection here.
- it is a known fact that hatchery fish displace wild fish. lets say you are the only citizen on your block. life is good, you can find something to eat without too much trouble. a couple of good looking females are around the next bend waiting... next thing you know 10 bus loads of foreigners arrive and set up camp in your backyard. gets tougher to find anyplace to hide much less anything to eat. and those bus loads of foreigners are clueless about finding something to eat, evading predators or reproducing. net result is you lost your home and purpose in living.
- absolutely, climate change is happening right now. water temps and Ph are changing as a result of what humans are doing. (krill, as an example, in the berring sea can no longer form the carpice because of the change in Ph levels.) that certainly makes a difference regarding fish survival. but keep in mind that through the eons, fish have gone through climate cycles, devistated eco systems, loss of habitat and who knows what else. the difference may simply be that their natal streams did not contain bank to bank gill nets!
- lets ramp up to mega hatheries, the hell with wild fish. well there are many who are that short sighted. but, do you suppose for a nano second that the commercial fisheries, indian and non-indian, are going to stand by and not demand a greater share of those fish?? again, if you think that simply generating more concrete fish is going to solve anything, it would be good to stop and think again. more fish, bigger quotas resulting in the same escapement we see right now.
- as a small data point. i was up at my local coho hatchery yesterday am to watch them net the trap pen and take eggs and milt. this hatchery is small, releasing about a million coho smolt/year. this is the second week of egg collection. 75 fish last week, 80 yesterday! they have 3 more weeks to collect eggs but i think you get the idea of just how grim this is right now. so bigger hatchery?
- hatchery salmon simply can't compete with wild fish, that seems a scientific fact. so simply producing more hatchery is a zero sum gain, solves nothing. i believe the first step in recovery is a simple one, no non selective harvesting of salmon, period, no exceptions. the folks in siberia long ago recognized the importance of the dollar from visiting fishermen. they took all the nets out and replaced them with fish traps. any wild fish are simply released to spawn without handling, hatchery fish are killed until their quota is reached. pretty simple and straight forward approach to having wild fish for the sports to chase around. could that happen here? probably not until the commercial fishing lobby is taken on frontally, and thats not going to happen in my life time. so better to let all of the fish go extinct, that solves this political dilema quickly.
- 200,000 fish in a net pen produce the equivalent waste of 600,000 humans prior to their harvest. ever drive past one of those mega stock feed lots? that is exactly what the ocean floor looks and smells like. and no, the tides and currents don't dispurse this waste. just take a look at where net pens are located, sheltered waters. any fish that happens past is infected with lice and whatever else is in the vicinity.
- fish meal is produced by catching 'bait' fish. wonder why the herring stocks are tanking??? a wild fish, smolting, is feeding on a food chain that is indiginous to the eco system in which they happen to be. you konw, various insects, sculpins and whatever it can forage. as a result, only the smolt that are the fittest survive to migrate and return. concrete fish are ALL released, no natural selection here.
- it is a known fact that hatchery fish displace wild fish. lets say you are the only citizen on your block. life is good, you can find something to eat without too much trouble. a couple of good looking females are around the next bend waiting... next thing you know 10 bus loads of foreigners arrive and set up camp in your backyard. gets tougher to find anyplace to hide much less anything to eat. and those bus loads of foreigners are clueless about finding something to eat, evading predators or reproducing. net result is you lost your home and purpose in living.
- absolutely, climate change is happening right now. water temps and Ph are changing as a result of what humans are doing. (krill, as an example, in the berring sea can no longer form the carpice because of the change in Ph levels.) that certainly makes a difference regarding fish survival. but keep in mind that through the eons, fish have gone through climate cycles, devistated eco systems, loss of habitat and who knows what else. the difference may simply be that their natal streams did not contain bank to bank gill nets!
- lets ramp up to mega hatheries, the hell with wild fish. well there are many who are that short sighted. but, do you suppose for a nano second that the commercial fisheries, indian and non-indian, are going to stand by and not demand a greater share of those fish?? again, if you think that simply generating more concrete fish is going to solve anything, it would be good to stop and think again. more fish, bigger quotas resulting in the same escapement we see right now.
- as a small data point. i was up at my local coho hatchery yesterday am to watch them net the trap pen and take eggs and milt. this hatchery is small, releasing about a million coho smolt/year. this is the second week of egg collection. 75 fish last week, 80 yesterday! they have 3 more weeks to collect eggs but i think you get the idea of just how grim this is right now. so bigger hatchery?
- hatchery salmon simply can't compete with wild fish, that seems a scientific fact. so simply producing more hatchery is a zero sum gain, solves nothing. i believe the first step in recovery is a simple one, no non selective harvesting of salmon, period, no exceptions. the folks in siberia long ago recognized the importance of the dollar from visiting fishermen. they took all the nets out and replaced them with fish traps. any wild fish are simply released to spawn without handling, hatchery fish are killed until their quota is reached. pretty simple and straight forward approach to having wild fish for the sports to chase around. could that happen here? probably not until the commercial fishing lobby is taken on frontally, and thats not going to happen in my life time. so better to let all of the fish go extinct, that solves this political dilema quickly.
Oh oh, reelfast, be very careful with your assumptions about Russia and their "environmentally friendly" doing. There is more to it and not all is good there. You do not want to adopt their system - believe me!
I think you see a little too dark about hatchery impacts. The truth is like so often somewhere in the middle.
I think you see a little too dark about hatchery impacts. The truth is like so often somewhere in the middle.
chris73, siberia is NOT russia! you may be confusing the now defunct USSR with what is currently in place.
fact is, fish traps actually work very well and were commonly employed on the north american shores before monofilament and outboard motors.
if you have some 'bright' news regarding hatchery plants and their impacts, by all means elaborate.
fact is, fish traps actually work very well and were commonly employed on the north american shores before monofilament and outboard motors.
if you have some 'bright' news regarding hatchery plants and their impacts, by all means elaborate.
juandesooka
Active Member
Reelfast: I appreciate you clarifying your points and I understand the problems that you bring up. We agree about taking on the commercial fishing lobby. However, when you say "better to let all of the fish go extinct, that solves this political dilema quickly", that's where you and I part ways.
No doubt there's a crisis, and clearly there's no obvious solutions that will make everyone happy, or they'd likely be under way already.
I see a few possible responses:
1. ***** and moan but do nothing.
2. get involved and try to do something positive. That could be volunteering at a local hatchery or political activism (SFAB meetings, etc). It could also be joining your local "save __ river" society -- these groups improve habitat for wild fish as their primary goal!
I don't want to attack you, but I don't see your attitude expressed above as productive. "If it can't be perfect, then burn it all down" does not in any way help move forward positively. If you disagree with hatcheries, fine. But what else are YOU doing to help?
PS
Siberia is a part of Russia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia
From what I've heard there are some over-the-top crazy environmental abuses in Siberia. I think what Chris is getting at, is that Russia is unlikely to be a world poster boy for eco-anything, so probably not the best example.
No doubt there's a crisis, and clearly there's no obvious solutions that will make everyone happy, or they'd likely be under way already.
I see a few possible responses:
1. ***** and moan but do nothing.
2. get involved and try to do something positive. That could be volunteering at a local hatchery or political activism (SFAB meetings, etc). It could also be joining your local "save __ river" society -- these groups improve habitat for wild fish as their primary goal!
I don't want to attack you, but I don't see your attitude expressed above as productive. "If it can't be perfect, then burn it all down" does not in any way help move forward positively. If you disagree with hatcheries, fine. But what else are YOU doing to help?
PS
Siberia is a part of Russia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia
From what I've heard there are some over-the-top crazy environmental abuses in Siberia. I think what Chris is getting at, is that Russia is unlikely to be a world poster boy for eco-anything, so probably not the best example.
Well said juandesooka.
reelfast; Just take the Sooke River hatchery as an example: In 1981 they had ONE chinook coming back to the river whereas 20 years before that 5000 - 7000 used to return. Do you suggest they should have waited for this ONE chinook to rebuild a sustainable population? They started the hatchery, which is by all means a very small outfit and funded and run by volunteers. But due to their relentless efforts they were able to bring the river back to regular 1000 - 3000 chinooks plus reestablishing a small run of steelheads that was also gone. Ain't that bad, is it?
reelfast; Just take the Sooke River hatchery as an example: In 1981 they had ONE chinook coming back to the river whereas 20 years before that 5000 - 7000 used to return. Do you suggest they should have waited for this ONE chinook to rebuild a sustainable population? They started the hatchery, which is by all means a very small outfit and funded and run by volunteers. But due to their relentless efforts they were able to bring the river back to regular 1000 - 3000 chinooks plus reestablishing a small run of steelheads that was also gone. Ain't that bad, is it?
fact is extinction has already occured and will continue along its course. i can easily name a dozen river systems which no longer have ANY wild fishes. no hatchery is going to bring those rivers back to what they used to be.
what we have here are quotas set by the commerical fishing lobbys which translate to overfished stocks, everywhere. of course these folks are interested in making bucks and will fish in the most cost efficient manner possible to maximize ROI, gill nets. all that does is excaberate the problems because they are the one killing the last remaining wild fish, they call it 'by catch'.
yep, i belong to a number of conservation oriented groups. but the fact remains that the sport fishermen are a fractured bunch of folks, to say the least. there is not a clear objective from the sport fishing community given our fishes, none. so while there are lots of well meaning individuals around, because there is no single voice to take on tribal and commerical interests, nothing gets done.
fighting the necessary political fights requires a well funded, clear objective lobby effort. the sport fishing community has no single voice and no concensus regarding what next.
so while you and i may be participating at some local level, the entire stock collapses at a global level. recovering some minor fishery is a wonderful feel good effort, but at the end of the day it will make not a whit of difference.
so since there is no concensus, why not just kick back and watch everything collapse, its happenning right now and i don't see anyone or any group positioned to turn that tide. do you????
and what environmental issues exist in siberia was not my point. my point was simply that they have banned gill netting and replaced that with in river fish traps. they are actually saving wild fishes so 'sports' from around the world will helicopter in and dump tens of thousands of dollars into their local pockets.
what we have here are quotas set by the commerical fishing lobbys which translate to overfished stocks, everywhere. of course these folks are interested in making bucks and will fish in the most cost efficient manner possible to maximize ROI, gill nets. all that does is excaberate the problems because they are the one killing the last remaining wild fish, they call it 'by catch'.
yep, i belong to a number of conservation oriented groups. but the fact remains that the sport fishermen are a fractured bunch of folks, to say the least. there is not a clear objective from the sport fishing community given our fishes, none. so while there are lots of well meaning individuals around, because there is no single voice to take on tribal and commerical interests, nothing gets done.
fighting the necessary political fights requires a well funded, clear objective lobby effort. the sport fishing community has no single voice and no concensus regarding what next.
so while you and i may be participating at some local level, the entire stock collapses at a global level. recovering some minor fishery is a wonderful feel good effort, but at the end of the day it will make not a whit of difference.
so since there is no concensus, why not just kick back and watch everything collapse, its happenning right now and i don't see anyone or any group positioned to turn that tide. do you????
and what environmental issues exist in siberia was not my point. my point was simply that they have banned gill netting and replaced that with in river fish traps. they are actually saving wild fishes so 'sports' from around the world will helicopter in and dump tens of thousands of dollars into their local pockets.
juandesooka
Active Member
See Chris' post above.
My hobby is sports fishing around Sooke. The Sooke River now has salmon, where it nearly didn't before. This is at least partially the result of people who cared enough 30 years ago to say "F___ the system and the lack of funding and all the politics. We'll start with some home-made, gerry-built equipment, and just get the job done".
That's as grassroots, homegrown, and DIY an eco focus as you're going to get. Watch it all collapse, when my friends and neighbours are spending their own time and money to make things better for me? Screw that. Sign me up.
The expression is "think global, act local". The second part is more important.
glad that makes you and your friends feel good, not a bad thing. but the fact remains, your efforts are doing squat to solve the issue of salmon recovery.
furthermore, your approach simply underscores my basic point that the sport fishing community has no central objective that can be explained and dueled over. 'we' to often tend to think far too small and thereby miss the basic point that fish are going away no matter how good we feel about something we have done locally.
furthermore, your approach simply underscores my basic point that the sport fishing community has no central objective that can be explained and dueled over. 'we' to often tend to think far too small and thereby miss the basic point that fish are going away no matter how good we feel about something we have done locally.
scott craven
Well-Known Member
Reelfast...
your comments are pessimistic, yet sadly true.
that however, should not inhibit local attempts to bring back salmon
through hatchery efforts.
I for one will be donating to the Sooke hatchery, as in my opinion
it's better to have hatchery salmon, than no salmon.
your comments are pessimistic, yet sadly true.
that however, should not inhibit local attempts to bring back salmon
through hatchery efforts.
I for one will be donating to the Sooke hatchery, as in my opinion
it's better to have hatchery salmon, than no salmon.
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