Agentaqua, Sockeyefry & Handee

[islandboy]

quote:Originally posted by agentaqua
We can all learn from each other here.

Interesting thread. While my CV (unrelated to fish and aquatics) has no relevance on this forum I find that most of the discussions here are very enlightening. Assuming one is open minded enough to accept that they have not yet learned/experianced all there is to know. The truth exists between the various point of view.

 

[handee]

quote:Originally posted by Concerned Angler

Aww geeze-- it seems some of you are almost ready to have a group hug with the proponents of fish farming. What part of "These guys are the enemy" dont you get? They are not willing to invoke the "Precautionary Principle". They are willing to risk our wild stocks for a buck. They have told bald-faced lies that salmon farming is the way to go to save wild salmon, THAT SALMON FARMS ARE NOT THE VECTOR FOR SEALICE---- be nice to them? -- not a chance. GET THE DAMN FARMS OUT OF THE WATER AND TREAT THE WASTE.

I also have a degree in fisheries biology. Does that make me smarter? Nope-- show I can be trained, but what it did for me is to enable me to distinguish between facts, spin and BS. And there is a lot of the latter being produced here.

CA, wow you really are a true believer arent you? no evidence will sway you. stick to your guns and dont let any of the facts convince you otherwise. if morton says its true then its true. anyone who presents evidence to the contrary is an infidel and a bald face liar.

why not invoke the precautionary principle and ban all forms of salmon fishing? its pretty obvious that killing fish has an impact (the impact is in the form of killing them). why not stop killing millions of them a year and see if it helps?

tell you what, if you ban fishing AND come up with evidence that salmon farms are not beneficial to wild salmon stocks then we can consider changing how we farm salmon.

if you advocate for the banning of fishing you will not sound so silly asking for fish farmers to move onto land.

 

[gimp]

You make me laugh you keep telling us to stop killing salmon and stop fishing them on a sports fishing website the same website that is allowing you to post here. You want people that spend tons of money to go out and enjoy fishing and eating there catch to stop so you can sell them farmed fish and continue to kill wild salmon as a byproduct to your fish farming. The commercial fleets are fishing less the sporties are fishing less but you are not farming less right now. If we all quit Im sure the fish farms would continue farming and killing just as they have been untill something is done about it.

 

[handee]

quote:Originally posted by gimp

You make me laugh you keep telling us to stop killing salmon and stop fishing them on a sports fishing website the same website that is allowing you to post here. You want people that spend tons of money to go out and enjoy fishing and eating there catch to stop so you can sell them farmed fish and continue to kill wild salmon as a byproduct to your fish farming. The commercial fleets are fishing less the sporties are fishing less but you are not farming less right now. If we all quit Im sure the fish farms would continue farming and killing just as they have been untill something is done about it.

Im not telling you to do anything. the anti salmon farming lobby has been very successful. there has been a de facto moratorium on salmon farming in BC for 12 years- production has stayed the same. I think farming salmon and banning fishing is the only hope for the wild. I just think its sadly hilarious that people that kill fish for sport and profit feel they are on the side of the angels in this debate. iam hoping to reflect back the ridiculousness of this position and reveal the anti salmon farmers- who do NOT call for a ban of salmon fishing- reveals their disingenuousness. expanding our fish farming- for all fishes- is the only hope the wild stocks have.

But Iam sure the Atlanticv cod scenario will repeat itself and one day fishers will make the connection between the more years they go on killing the less salmon are left to kill.

nothing amuses me more when a red faced fisherman discovers my viewpoint. their face goes red and they say BEFORE SALMON FARMS I COULD FILL MY BOAT, WEEK AFTER WEEK, YEAR AFTER YEAR, WITH FISH IN ONLY A COUPLE HOURS PER TRIP. NOW THEY ARE ALL GONE!!! I usually pause at this point, looking into their eyes, waiting to hear a "click" as a light goes on. Usually the eyes remain dim.


You think my apparent bias is funny, but at least its not dangerous. Its clear that to save salmon stocks we need to eat farm salmon only (and farm chickens , cow, apples, etc). The message "save the wild salmon, don't eat farmed" now thats got bias AND is a death sentence for wild salmon stock. thatrs not called saving wild salmon, thats marketting an endangered species.


the world would make more sense if sport fishermen were on the side of the farmers, demanding that commercial fishing be banned and only farmed salmon be allowed sold in restaurants or in supermarkets. THAT would make sense.h

also the public should be outraged that commercial fishing persists because it costs teh taxpayer $5 for every pound caught and of course it is threatening a canadian icon. Sportfishing kills less fish, but at least it pays for itself and some of the tax revenue can go into stream rehab and there is potential fo rcatch and release.

anyone who loves wild salmon should only eat farm salmon.

same goes for Buffalo, if you have any respect for the species then for god sakes only eat farmed buffaloe.


watching alaska fish farmers pay activists to demarket their competition and watching fishermen join on the side of the activists and the americans, makes no sense. Im sure history will reveal the stupidity of this paradox.

 

[sockeyefry]

Handee,

I wait for that click also, but have not seen much of it yet. Of course it is human nature to blame everyone/thing rather than yourself.

It also amazes me when the an fisherman makes that statement regarding how many fish they caught, and do not realize that maybe they were a large part of the problem as well.

I have heard many calls for the banning of salmon farms, whose impacts are minimal and indirect, but not many banning salmon fishing which has the sole purpose of harming wild salmon.

 

[agentaqua]

quote:I wait for that click also, but have not seen much of it yet.

What "click" is that guys - the click of the washing machine coming-on? The brainwash cycle where open net-cage salmon farms are eco-friendly and fish farmers scratch the back of Keiko and Willy? Denial is a nice, safe place - isn't it guys.

Killing wild salmon for food is something humans have done for thousands of years, guys. It's not the killing of salmon that's the problem - it's the lack of commitment by DFO to put the effort and monies into looking after the resource that's the problem.

Salmon farms impacts from open net-pens are detrimental to adjacent wild stocks everywhere in the world, guys. Read the news from Scotland, Ireland, Norway, New Brunswick and elsewhere.

 

[sockeyefry]

By the way Agent,

Where is your CV?

That is what is to be discussed at this thread, not your propoganda

 

[agentaqua]

quote:Originally posted by sockeyefry

By the way Agent,

Where is your CV?

That is what is to be discussed at this thread, not your propoganda

If what you say is true, sockeyefry - then why did you & Handee have a back-slapping session over how terrible everyone who kills wild salmon is?

 

[handee]

quote:Originally posted by agentaqua

quote:I wait for that click also, but have not seen much of it yet.

Killing wild salmon for food is something humans have done for thousands of years, guys.

>>thats the problem: 1000's of years of killing, not 20 years of farming. C'mon AA you are close to a breakthrouhgh here.....click

It's not the killing of salmon that's the problem -

>> Of course not, its the salmon farms that came after the 1000's of years of killing. Now I see.[[red]

it's the lack of commitment by DFO to put the effort and monies into looking after the resource that's the problem.

>> Yeah its all DFO's fault they should have put a biologist and a Cop on every boat. More money would have solved the problem and then we the taxpayer could have lost $50 for every pound we caught. One thing for sure is its not the fishermans fault.

Salmon farms impacts from open net-pens are detrimental to adjacent wild stocks everywhere in the world, guys. Read the news from Scotland, Ireland, Norway, New Brunswick and elsewhere.

Farming Atlantic salmon in the Atlantic was the problem and it wasnt a very big one. Concerns have been addressed, they werent very big and the industry is doing great. Thank God fish farming came along before the last of the wild could be wiped out by poachers. Now there is less pressure to fish the last remaining wild stock.

agent aqua, I can feel how badly you want the idea of farm fish killing wild fish to be true. But it makes no sense. We didnt give up farming chickens or beef when we came across the first 100 years of problems (none of which threatended wild stocks only vice versa as usual) and we are not going to stop farming fish because the idea of killing the wild for food is stupid- and we have , like you say, been doing it way too long and its failed in every instance DFO or not. DFO didnt just fail, mankind has failed. One more time for the gipper: mass killing of wild stocks for food is OVER. We know it doesnt work, we know we have to farm.

We know wild stocks transmit diseases to farm animals and fish, so AA you go on killing off wild fish and pretty soon fish farmers wont have to worry about diseases or sea lice- not that its been a big worry.

[/red]

 

[gimp]

How many sporties on this board fish in the Broughton?


Its intresting how all your pressure is on the commercial and sports fisherman but if you look at the Broughton how much commercial and recreational fishing hase been done in the last 10 years. I know comercial fishing for pink and chum salmon in the Broughton has not been open for at least the last 8 years and it is a very remote area to get to for most sporties that the recreational fishing pressure is not high at all.
see figures 1 and 3 on pages 2 and 3

http://www.raincoastresearch.org/pdf/Science2-300dpi.pdf

 

[Nimo]

Time to stop this useless FFFF's dribble.

 

[handee]

quote:Originally posted by gimp

How many sporties on this board fish in the Broughton?


Its intresting how all your pressure is on the commercial and sports fisherman but if you look at the Broughton how much commercial and recreational fishing hase been done in the last 10 years. I know comercial fishing for pink and chum salmon in the Broughton has not been open for at least the last 8 years and it is a very remote area to get to for most sporties that the recreational fishing pressure is not high at all.
see figures 1 and 3 on pages 2 and 3

http://www.raincoastresearch.org/pdf/Science2-300dpi.pdf

Listen,

Thanks for the post- hang on to it- it is absolute rubbish and as more research is done should prove nicely embarrassing for Morton et al. I love how Morton et al elevate them selves to the same status as DFO experts, giving themselves the last word. Morton and Krkosek compare their pathetic little studies with all their problems to professionally run studies done on a large scale. Case in point the Morton and Routledge trial (2005b) where she grew pinks with different lice infections to see a change in mortality. In order to get the rubbish past peer review she was forced to admit that she did not take into account size of fish (!!!!) and she did not do forensics to discover if their mortality had anything to do with lice (!!!). She also had to admit that it was done on a tiny scale- only a few fish. Yet her results are a perfect linear graph rarely seen in any biological experiment- tiny error bars-amazingly tight dataset, almost unprecedented.

It looks totally faked and as we know she has a history of lying in the press, mis citing her references and misrepresenting her science to the media. But lets not go there again. Lets just focus on the science for now. Its enough to say that it doesnt disagree with that of DFO. No causal link or strong correlation can be demonstrated when all stream data is included and reasonable assumptions are being made and all published science is considered. Krkosek and Morton can cite each as much as they want and produce paper after paper doing so. And they can make arguments that their assumptions are reasonable. The scientific community of experts in this multidisciplinary arena will either accept it or not. So far the fish keep coming back, supporting the DFO science.


Iam not on a campaign to end fishing. I think sportsfishing can be regulated and controlled at a good profit for BC.

What i am against is the idea of invoking the precautionary approach to ban fish farming based on no evidence of effect on wild stocks when there are CLEARLY other activities that impact wild fish significantly, e.g. sportsfishing.


To see the anti fish farm activists teaming up with sportfsfishers is ludicrous in the extreme. If you want to save wild salmon you either stop fishing or farm them or both. You dont keep fishing and stop farming- thats a death sentence. That's lik elogging without tree planting or shutting down chicken farms and starting commercial grouse hunting.

Let me put it another way. Study after study shows no correlation between salmon farming and fish returns (unless you refer to Morton and Krkoseks studies which are computer models with many questionable assumptions: like ignoring the Glendale river system because it has a spawning channel which has nothing to do with saltwatwer survival, but by ignoring it conveniently biasing the numbers their way).

Of all the things we can control, fishing is one of them. If the stocks were so precarious then the precautionary principle doesnt compel us to stop farming, but increase farming and ban salmon fishing of all kinds just to be safe.

I submit, based on peer reviewed science, that the stocks in the Broughton are not in a precarious situation as far as the pinks go and are rebuilding nicely. Therefore we dont need to ban anything. However to protect future generations of wild stock we need to move towards fish farming. No one should be able to buy or sell wild salmon, just as no one can buy or sell grizzly bear meat.

The only way to proetct wild stocks is to farm them and not fish them comercially. Hopefully the price of oil, togteher with increasing fish framing, will continue to relieve the pressure to kill wild salmon.

 

[sockeyefry]

Okay,

So where is the outrage. I was the only one to post a CV.

There sure was alot of posting on the first page about not letting the people who do not post their CV continue?