Viruses in present bc salmon farms

Taxpayer $ hard at work, massaging the messaging:

Agriculture

FACTSHEET: Aquaculture and fish health in British Columbia
Friday, March 3, 2017 9:00 AM
 
Can anyone tell me what if anything the Fish Farm industry donates to the B.C. Liberals or NDP per year?[/QUOTE]

From the links posted above by Agentaqua it looks like $49,875 from the B.C. Salmon Farmers and $13,700 from Marine Harvest donated Provincially
Is this correct?
Is it safe to say there are no other hidden Fish Farm donations?
Do we know what the totals are to the Feds?
I would hope our Provincial Politicians would not be overly influenced by these amounts, but don't the Feds hold all the decision making power?
 
It's only what they need to show on the books at Election time - so they can spend those $ on advertising and the like. That's only a small amount of what money changes hands over the whole term of the government - and only a small amount of what is correctly labelled as coming from any 1 contributor. There are many acting as "fronts" so that it doesn't appear too bad that the government is getting too much from any one identifiable source.

Take Mr Mark Jiles - as an example. He is a drop - or a front - for numerous clients - including the BCSFA (as described in the above Globe and Mail news article). He contributed another $49,875.00. How many other fronts are there? Search for "BC Ltd". Pages and pages worth - of specially organized company fronts for who knows who. Also search for "DON MILLERD" - looks like he does the same as Mark Jiles. A recognized company official can also put the contribution in his wife's name to avoid detection, too - or maybe a shell company or a limited liability partner. Many ways to avoid detection.

Then there are lobbyists who aren't covered as election funds providers. Take as an example the Mulroney/Schriber affair as an insight into how that federal "system" works. Their drops aren't recorded through the elections oversight. Only nondescript manila envelopes, please!

Provincially,just look at Mount Polley/Imperial Metals:
http://ht.ly/AfWaB
https://thetyee.ca/News/2014/08/09/Imperial-Metals-Monetary-Gifts/
http://www.vancouversun.com/touch/story.html?id=10102715

The 1st filter or line of secrets falls through Provincially - through the Provincial fish vets office - and the BC Min of Agriculture - the same ones who did up the news release above (thanks GLG)- and claim PRv doesn't cause HMSI - still...
 
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[QUOTE="
The 1st filter or line of secrets falls through Provincially - through the Provincial fish vets office - and the BC Dept of Agriculture - the same ones who did up the news release above - and claim PRv doesn't cause HMSI - still...[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the info Agentaqua...
All great info as usual.
The last line of your post pretty much tells all.
 
Reel Time ... did you read the last three paragraphs of this year old story? Why would Washington, Oregon, and especially Alaska ( the state that would gain so much if BC salmon farms were found to have ISA, the disease) be involved in this virus research?

Do you believe these non findings of other government agencies and researchers?
 
Reel Time ... did you read the last three paragraphs of this year old story? Why would Washington, Oregon, and especially Alaska ( the state that would gain so much if BC salmon farms were found to have ISA, the disease) be involved in this virus research?

Do you believe these non findings of other government agencies and researchers?

Dave...it's truly hard to know who to believe!
Do you believe ALL the information and press releases from the Fish Farm owners is beyond suspicion ?
Do you believe Fish Farm Sea Lice and diseases pose NO THREAT WHATSOEVER to our wild salmon?
Do you believe Alexander Morton's fears are totally unfounded and she should simple give up her research?
 
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Dave...it's truly hard to know who to believe!
Do you believe ALL the information and press releases from the Fish Farm owners is beyond suspicion ?
No
Do you believe Fish Farm Sea Lice and diseases pose NO THREAT WHATSOEVER to our wild salmon?
This question makes no sense ... what diseases??
Do you believe Alexander Morton's fears are totally unfounded and she should simple give up her research?
Uhh, its Alexandra ... Can't see her giving up her agenda ... far too entrenched but sure would like to see her focus her energy into something that will actually help wild salmon ... things like fish habitat reconstruction, speaking out against overfishing, urban encroachment on salmon bearing streams, pollution, pipelines, etc, etc... gawd, there's no end to the problems facing wild salmon.

I suspect we both want the same things fi, just have different people we believe and trust. For nearly 20 years I was fortunate to have worked with and befriended several world class fishery scientists and have put my faith in them to get this right.
 
Uhh, its Alexandra ... Can't see her giving up her agenda ... far too entrenched but sure would like to see her focus her energy into something that will actually help wild salmon ... things like fish habitat reconstruction, speaking out against overfishing, urban encroachment on salmon bearing streams, pollution, pipelines, etc, etc... gawd, there's no end to the problems facing wild salmon.
I suspect we both want the same things fi, just have different people we believe and trust. For nearly 20 years I was fortunate to have worked with and befriended several world class fishery scientists and have put my faith in them to get this right.

Fair enough Dave...thanks for your reply
Will watch with great interest in the on going debate
 
Reel Time ... did you read the last three paragraphs of this year old story? Why would Washington, Oregon, and especially Alaska ( the state that would gain so much if BC salmon farms were found to have ISA, the disease) be involved in this virus research? Do you believe these non findings of other government agencies and researchers?
Dave - I find it hard to believe that you haven't read the info on the other threads about how the PCR and culture assay used by CFIA and DFO is inappropriate (and likely constructed that way) in determining positives verses negatives. Case in point is Miller's latest research on HMSI/PRv.
 
So are you suggesting Washington, Oregon and Alaska are also using inappropriate methods for virus detection?
 
You are not implying that scientists would be controlled by the government are you?



It's only what they need to show on the books at Election time - so they can spend those $ on advertising and the like. That's only a small amount of what money changes hands over the whole term of the government - and only a small amount of what is correctly labelled as coming from any 1 contributor. There are many acting as "fronts" so that it doesn't appear too bad that the government is getting too much from any one identifiable source.

Take Mr Mark Jiles - as an example. He is a drop - or a front - for numerous clients - including the BCSFA (as described in the above Globe and Mail news article). He contributed another $49,875.00. How many other fronts are there? Search for "BC Ltd". Pages and pages worth - of specially organized company fronts for who knows who. Also search for "DON MILLERD" - looks like he does the same as Mark Jiles. A recognized company official can also put the contribution in his wife's name to avoid detection, too - or maybe a shell company or a limited liability partner. Many ways to avoid detection.

Then there are lobbyists who aren't covered as election funds providers. Take as an example the Mulroney/Schriber affair as an insight into how that federal "system" works. Their drops aren't recorded through the elections oversight. Only nondescript manila envelopes, please!

Provincially,just look at Mount Polley/Imperial Metals:
http://ht.ly/AfWaB
https://thetyee.ca/News/2014/08/09/Imperial-Metals-Monetary-Gifts/
http://www.vancouversun.com/touch/story.html?id=10102715

The 1st filter or line of secrets falls through Provincially - through the Provincial fish vets office - and the BC Min of Agriculture - the same ones who did up the news release above (thanks GLG)- and claim PRv doesn't cause HMSI - still...
 
There are SO MANY issues with the DFO/CFIA "approved" PCR and cell culture testing - any SINGLE ONE of the many points below should be used as a rationale for *NOT* relying upon this testing regime to identify and assess impacts to wild stocks using their methodology:

1/ CFIA has repeated stated that their focus/raison d'être is to "protect trade" (including trade in aquaculture products through the Sanitary and Phytosanitary Agreement of the WTO (https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/sps_e/spsagr_e.htm) rather than the public's resources - along with "winning the PR war". Several important components (i.e. Acts, regulations and testing protocols) are often ignored in the discussion over appropriateness of the testing methodology. One of many includes compartmentalization (http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals/aquatic-animals/diseases/finfish/eng/1450409829304/1450409830112) - where if you grow fish products from a zone with a reportable disease (http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals...es/reportable/eng/1322940971192/1322941111904) - you can't ship live or fresh products or eggs to a "declared free" zone (ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/005/y1238e/y1238e08.pdf). The zones and the "declaration status" are at: http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals/aquatic-animals/diseases/finfish/eng/1450409829304/1450409830112

Simply put - Canada's fish farm industry could loose certain markets under the application of Article 1.4.6 of the OIE Aquatic Animal Health Code (http://www.oie.int/index.php?id=171&L=0&htmfile=chapitre_aqua_ani_surveillance.htm) if ISAv was declared to exist by CFIA. And you are not getting that market back if you are excluded to markets due to disease issues - because the wild stocks have it. Mum's the word.

2/ If the government admits that ISAv and/or PRv with HMSI - or any new, novel disease was released into the wild stocks with noticeable population-level impacts - you can be sure that the Justice Lawyers - along with the fish farm lawyers - have briefed certain government officials that a class action law suit will soon be forthcoming. That's why they want to keep attempting to deny the link between HMSI and PRv, IMHO. Let that narly sleeping dog lie is the intent. They then use the excuse of the Privacy Act to deny any attempts to use the FOI act to get answers on fish farm disease. Protecting "trade", again.

3/ The industry and the government co-operated in tracking an IHN outbreaks (St-Hilaire et al., 2002; Saksida, 2006) and then developing an agent-based model to track those disease particles through the Broughton's (Garver et al., 2013). They could have done that with PRV or ISAv, as well - but they haven't. They could also use these results to update their siting criteria - but they haven't. Know why? IHN is a "native" disease (Endemic). No risk in admitting it is here - and dealing with it. It would be difficult to track IHN as an impact from the industry to wild stocks. Although the industry could elevate the levels of IHN shed and available to infect non-infected wild stocks - in this case, they did not release a novel new virus onto wild stocks - unlike ISAv and PRV which are from the fish farming industry. Law suit if you admit they let ISAv and HMSI happen. Nothing to see here folks - move along.

4/ The actual PCR testing methodology has numerous known "holes" in that method - that I believe were planned. Let me explain. The letters PCR stand for "Polymerase chain reaction" - the "chain" part being a method of amplification - the "polymerase" part being a very specific key/enzyme.

So - it starts with already identifying a specific DNA/RNA clip from the virsus - and as we know - viruses mutate. So that means that you can only test for what you know - and that evolving viruses may be undetected using this method. In particular, HPR0 ISAv can't be cell-cultured - can be endemic in areas where ISA outbreaks have occurred and given the right conditions – it can mutate to the virulent ISAV-HPRΔ form

Secondly - the numbers of thermal cycles (amplification) that it takes for CFIA/DFO to admit they generated a "positive" verses a "false positive" is arbitrary and is based on what CFIA/DFO would see as virus levels in cultured (caged) fish. Caged fish are the couch potatoes of the sea - and could withstand much higher viral loads since they generally don't need to run away from predators. Using the same cycle cut-off as a determination for a "positive" for wild fish is inappropriate and scientifically unsupported. It's just more hocus-pocus - nothing to see here folks - move along.

Third - The fact that there was a "false positive" doesn't mean that there wasn't those viral bits in the tissues to begin with. There isn't a ISAv fairy that I know going around innoculating these tests. However, the lesser titre levels from the wild samples might not be quite enough to trigger a reaction in the cell culture. It sure doesn't mean that there was no ISAv - or that the sample was ISAv-free.

Fourth - many viruses are quite fragile (esp. ISAv). You need to use an appropriate preservative that allows the virus to stay "alive" (as much as any virus is alive) and reproduce in the PCR testing. Freezing denatures DNA and many viruses. If they manage to get a "false positive" when using frozen tissue - that would mean that there was more virus in the tissues before freezing - and that is of concern when declaring a "false positive". There should be a correction applied - but is not done by CFIA/DFO. Instead they complain that the sample was degraded - and use that complaint to summarily dismiss the results. Enter the communications departments and PR firms.

Fifth - The "confirmation" of the PCR test usually uses cell culture. Different strains of virus will be more or less successful in differing cells from different species, and different organs, and at different temperatures. It is difficult to get a positive - and as the above point mentioned - the virus needs to be "preserved" appropriately so that it can reproduce in cell culture.

Sixth - You have to sample the right number (function of prevalence) and at the right time, since when testing for the infectious agent (e.g. PCR) - the virus may only be in the individual host tested for a few days. From the Miller study (Di Cicco et al. (2017):
  • Alternately, in sampling programs that may capture only a small number of fish on a farm, whether in response to a mortality event or as in the Audit program, as a random sampling event at non-peak stages of disease, it may be difficult to diagnose HSMI with a high degree of confidence
  • to date, lack of access to representative samples throughout the life cycle limits the conclusions possible for the natural history of the complex relationship between PRV and HSMI in wild fish populations.
Seventh - Why did they go with PCR/cell culture anways? There are other alternatives - lateral flow immunochromatographic assays (even one for ISAv: Adams and Thompson 2010) and Miller's genomics work. Maybe those methods work way too damn well.

I think I'll stop there - and reiterate that during an outbreak - before recently-affected wild fish die and/or get eaten - that would be the time to assess what that infection means - assess the virulence and mortality/morbidity - but guess what?

The government is scared of that happening and refuses to release fish health information.
 
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Agent, please see post #75
Your post #75 states:
"So are you suggesting Washington, Oregon and Alaska are also using inappropriate methods for virus detection?"

Exactly which commercial Salmon farming operations do they perform tests on in Alaska? Last time I read the Alaskan forums, Salmon farming is not allowed there. Seems those Mericans up there have way more integrity than our corrupt politicians when it comes to protecting the environment.
 
They have analyzed their "wild" salmon and have found no evidence of ISAv; same as Washington and Oregon.
I don't know what specific parameters the US uses for viral detection ... do you?

The fact aa has not responded tells me he also is not sure .... or is googling his butt off trying to find out.
 
If you have a specific point to make, Dave - about differences in methodology - then make it. You can do your own work in uncovering whatever points you wish to make.
 
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