University of Washington and NOAA Study: Decreasing pH may affect salmon ability to smell

Pineapple Express

Well-Known Member
Interesting article here:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/salmon-carbon-yukon-1.4951797

Copied below if the link doesn't work

A new study out of the University of Washington and NOAA Fisheries' Northwest Fisheries Science Centre shows rising carbon dioxide in the ocean may be impacting how salmon perceive scents.

"Their sense of smell is very important in their whole life," said Chase Williams, the lead author of the study published in Global Change Biology Monday.

Salmon depend on their nose to avoid predators, find food, attract a mate and make their way back upstream to where they were hatched in order to spawn and die"Understanding how potential chemistry changes in the ocean would affect that sensory function for them is definitely an important question to answer," said Williams.

The study looked a coho salmon, also known as silver salmon, that are found in the Alsek-Tatshenshini River system in Yukon, and farther north in the Porcupine River system.

The ocean absorbs carbon dioxide from the air, which concentrates the it in the water, lowering the pH. This is the process of ocean acidification.

The research team looked at juvenile coho salmon in three different tanks with different pH levels. The first tank had the current pH level from the water in Puget Sound, while the other tanks had the predicted pH levels for the next 50 and 100 years.

There is definitely enough evidence that it is worrisome.- Chase Williams
The fish were in the tanks for two weeks before they were exposed to the smell of salmon skin extract, used to trigger the response of a predator attack.

The fish in the water with the current CO2 levels responded by swimming away from the smell, but the fish in the other two tanks did not.

"It's actually ... altering the way their brain actually processes the signals they are picking up," said Williams.

The fish could still smell the odours but no longer processed them as something dangerous.

Williams said he doesn't know if this will affect their ability to find their way to their spawning grounds, but there is enough evidence to show it is possible.

"There is definitely enough evidence that it is worrisome," said Williams.

Williams says the way neurons talk to each other in other species of salmon are the same as the coho, meaning there is a good evidence that the same response could occur in other species. This is something Williams and his team are interested in looking at in the future.

"Pacific Northwest salmon are such a huge part of the ecosystem they're also hugely important culturally and economically," said Williams.

Increasing ocean acidification can contribute to other stressors in salmon environments, putting the species at greater risk, according to Williams.

"It just shows that increasing atmospheric CO2 and the corresponding increase in CO2 concentrations in the oceans are having wider ramifications then we initially understood," said Williams.
 
Thanks for posting Pineapple Express.
Like a lot of other climate change reports it is stated that oceans are acidifying from rising co2 levels in the atmosphere effecting the oceans by lowering the pH. I'm not sure how they come up with this?? I have Environment Canada rain chemistry reports from 1989-2007 and the rain ph averaged back the in 1990's was mid 4's. My personal testing since 2015 have indicated an average of 5.2 and since risen to an average of 5.9. So as atmospheric co2 theoretically lowers ocean pH the rain pH factually continues to rise. In theory precipitation forming from vapor should have a far greater surface area by volume to collect carbon and lower pH. How is it possible for the oceans to be acidifying with so much volume per surface area and buffering ability yet the rain is not?

Little bit of science challenge for anyone out there with chemistry background or interest! I have my ideas. Curious what others think?
 
It's two different things. Notice the chemical composition.
Acid Rain
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_rain
Ocean Acidification
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification

Thanks for posting Pineapple Express.
Like a lot of other climate change reports it is stated that oceans are acidifying from rising co2 levels in the atmosphere effecting the oceans by lowering the pH. I'm not sure how they come up with this?? I have Environment Canada rain chemistry reports from 1989-2007 and the rain ph averaged back the in 1990's was mid 4's. My personal testing since 2015 have indicated an average of 5.2 and since risen to an average of 5.9. So as atmospheric co2 theoretically lowers ocean pH the rain pH factually continues to rise. In theory precipitation forming from vapor should have a far greater surface area by volume to collect carbon and lower pH. How is it possible for the oceans to be acidifying with so much volume per surface area and buffering ability yet the rain is not?

Little bit of science challenge for anyone out there with chemistry background or interest! I have my ideas. Curious what others think?
 
It's two different things. Notice the chemical composition.
Acid Rain
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_rain
Ocean Acidification
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification
Thanks glg for engaging in discussion.
You posted two advertisements of acidifications which are common belief on the internet. In the real world how is it that water vapor can not be acidifying from co2 but the oceans are??? Does the ocean have a brain of it's own and have the ability to decide what chemicals to absorb or not? The advertisements you posted show how the internet can falsely sell a theory but these two adds contradict the laws of chemistry in the real world. They are perfect examples of how misleading the internet can be

So in other than posting internet adds how is it possible that atmospheric compounds that are acidifying the ocean are not acidifying the rain. In the real world water is water and atmosphere is atmosphere. How is it possible that the elements in the atmosphere are effecting rain differently then the oceans. Aren't the chemicals the same in the same in the atmosphere effecting the rain as the ones effecting the ocean?? What is the difference/

Please explain in your own words rather than more internet adds.
 
Ok try these two links, they are from a source that I grew up with in book form. I know it's not what you want to hear but it's the truth.

Acid Rain
https://www.britannica.com/science/acid-rain
Ocean Acidification
https://www.britannica.com/science/ocean-acidification

Thanks glg for engaging in discussion.
You posted two advertisements of acidifications which are common belief on the internet. In the real world how is it that water vapor can not be acidifying from co2 but the oceans are??? Does the ocean have a brain of it's own and have the ability to decide what chemicals to absorb or not? The advertisements you posted show how the internet can falsely sell a theory but these two adds contradict the laws of chemistry in the real world. They are perfect examples of how misleading the internet can be

So in other than posting internet adds how is it possible that atmospheric compounds that are acidifying the ocean are not acidifying the rain. In the real world water is water and atmosphere is atmosphere. How is it possible that the elements in the atmosphere are effecting rain differently then the oceans. Aren't the chemicals the same in the same in the atmosphere effecting the rain as the ones effecting the ocean?? What is the difference/

Please explain in your own words rather than more internet adds.
 
Not exactly your own words.
The acid rain add you posted does not mention co2 and the ocean acidification add doesn't mention sulfur dioxide or nitrogen oxides. Neither of those are scientific documents and both are missing information.
So do you think that all the years of rain acidified from sulfur dioxide that has fallen into the ocean has no effect and only co2 will cause ocean acidification??
Only on the internet can oceans be acidified by co2 but rain can't. lol
 
Maybe-
wind = ocean waves and turbulence = more absorption of whatever is in the air, including oxygen and acidifying CO2.
rain drops only have a few minutes to form and absorb, through the surface tension of the raindrop no less, whatever gasses are in the air.
Just speculative ramblings of someone with a transcript that says I achieved 54% in 1st year chemistry in 1981.
I admire your passion for the subject, Fishmyster. Keep at it, sounds like no one else cares to even try.
 
Thanks tuber. Good to have someone take stab at the challenge!!
Honestly, I am quite skeptic of the idea where it is co2 acidifying the oceans. If I was accumulating my knowledge from the net I would believe that rising co2 is threatening acidification of both fresh and salt water but I just don't believe the everything I read on the internet. I could only imagine that all the chemicals from whatever sources which are suspended in the atmosphere will enter water regardless if it fresh, salt or precipitation. The effect of evaporation and the precipitation should only increase the effect of bringing those chemicals down to earth by scrubbing the atmosphere. If the oceans are acidifying from co2 and or other chemicals then so should be freshwaters, except my field tests show otherwise. I asked a question I knew the internet had no plausible answer for. My suspicions are that if the oceans are indeed acidifying right now and fresh water isn't it is sulfate from underwater vents causing it and not atmospheric co2. Sulfuric acid is much more potent than carbonic acid. Then again the net would say otherwise.lol

I am on a quest to figure out exactly what has killed off the ecology around here. I'm sure I am on the right track. It's a lonely road some days but brings me pleasure each time there is scientific explanation which clicks with observations. So it's all for something even if it's just for me.

While at a first aid course last month I met some people who were researching chemistry and shellfish productivity. They were looking for ways to breed oysters that could be adapted to the more recently acidified inside vi waters. I mentioned my testing efforts and that the environment appears to be swinging the other way now. When I told them about rain pH, vanishing invertebrates, movements of metals, bla, bla, bla..... there faces lit up! They got it! I was invited to meet up to share info. So mid January I will get to geek out on chemistry with some people who do have a similar interest and maybe help me learn more!!

Anyways, thanks tuber for the inspirational post. Merry Christmas to you!!!
 
Thanks tuber. Good to have someone take stab at the challenge!!
Honestly, I am quite skeptic of the idea where it is co2 acidifying the oceans. If I was accumulating my knowledge from the net I would believe that rising co2 is threatening acidification of both fresh and salt water but I just don't believe the everything I read on the internet. I could only imagine that all the chemicals from whatever sources which are suspended in the atmosphere will enter water regardless if it fresh, salt or precipitation. The effect of evaporation and the precipitation should only increase the effect of bringing those chemicals down to earth by scrubbing the atmosphere. If the oceans are acidifying from co2 and or other chemicals then so should be freshwaters, except my field tests show otherwise. I asked a question I knew the internet had no plausible answer for. My suspicions are that if the oceans are indeed acidifying right now and fresh water isn't it is sulfate from underwater vents causing it and not atmospheric co2. Sulfuric acid is much more potent than carbonic acid. Then again the net would say otherwise.lol

I am on a quest to figure out exactly what has killed off the ecology around here. I'm sure I am on the right track. It's a lonely road some days but brings me pleasure each time there is scientific explanation which clicks with observations. So it's all for something even if it's just for me.

While at a first aid course last month I met some people who were researching chemistry and shellfish productivity. They were looking for ways to breed oysters that could be adapted to the more recently acidified inside vi waters. I mentioned my testing efforts and that the environment appears to be swinging the other way now. When I told them about rain pH, vanishing invertebrates, movements of metals, bla, bla, bla..... there faces lit up! They got it! I was invited to meet up to share info. So mid January I will get to geek out on chemistry with some people who do have a similar interest and maybe help me learn more!!

Anyways, thanks tuber for the inspirational post. Merry Christmas to you!!!

So why doesn't rain salt water?
 
I believe it because it makes sense and doesn't conflict with my in field observations. Yes the rain is not salty any time I taste it.
 
Water (H2O) can be in 3 different states, gas, solid and liquid. It can change states by adding or subtracting heat. So that tells us that water in the ocean can evaporate (change states) and will leave behind salt. This, obviously, does not conflict with your field observations. Same thing happens with the acid in the ocean. It's left behind when the water evaporates. Water (H2O) in gas form then precipitates out as rain (liquid state) bonding (mixing) with CO2, NOx, and SO2 to create acid rain. Changing the % of those chemicals can change the pH in your tests. We could increase, in the air, the CO2 and decrease the SO2 and NOx and you could see the your pH number go up.

There is a reason why we have moved to ultra low sulfur diesel for transportation and put sulfur scrubbers on coal fired electric power plants. Heck there is a new rule in the international shipping that have mandated low sulfur emissions for 2020. Currently most burn 5% sulfur in their bunker fuel. They have a choice, burn low sulfur fuel or put scrubbers on their exhaust. These a good things and it tells us the world takes these problems seriously, just like you.

And Merry Christmas , all is calm all is bright.
Du8g9daWoAAg2wd.jpg
 
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Water (H2O) can be in 3 different states, gas, solid and liquid. It can change states by adding or subtracting heat. So that tells us that water in the ocean can evaporate (change states) and will leave behind salt. This, obviously, does not conflict with your field observations. Same thing happens with the acid in the ocean. It's left behind when the water evaporates. Water (H2O) in gas form then precipitates out as rain (liquid state) bonding (mixing) with CO2, NOx, and SO2 to create acid rain. Changing the % of those chemicals can change the pH in your tests. We could increase, in the air, the CO2 and decrease the SO2 and NOx and you could see the your pH number go up.

There is a reason why we have moved to ultra low sulfur diesel for transportation and put sulfur scrubbers on coal fired electric power plants. Heck there is a new rule in the international shipping that have mandated low sulfur emissions for 2020. Currently most burn 5% sulfur in their bunker fuel. They have a choice, burn low sulfur fuel or put scrubbers on their exhaust. These a good things and it tells us the world takes these problems seriously, just like you.

And Merry Christmas , all is calm all is bright.
Du8g9daWoAAg2wd.jpg
Now that makes perfect sense to me! Kind of what I have been thinking all along.
Merry Christmas to you too!!!
 
I'm not exactly sure how to interpret that graph? As temperature rises co2 solubillity decreases? Am I reading it correctly?

Yes the blue line at 1 atmosphere represents reality

Although I guess the rest of it shows that the deeper you go in the ocean or as pressure increases it has the potential to hold or sequester more co2

Atlest that’s the way I read it?
 
So maybe the oceans won't be doomed by warming and rising co2 levels! Phew!!

Well I think it’s doomed if we keep using it for our toilet including a dumping ground for co2.

Although we had a lot more co2 during the Jurassic period.

Not sure what ph levels were in the ocean in the Jurassic period but probably lower the. Today if it had a lot of co2 around

Not sure how many salmon were around then tho
 
So maybe the oceans won't be doomed by warming and rising co2 levels! Phew!!
The CO2 and the H2O reacts to form an acid. That acid reacts with a chemical that is needed for animals in the ocean to from their bodies. We take that away from them and our basic building blocks like zooplantion decrease so then our fish have nothing left to eat.

The good news is that we have the means to turn this all around. I'm certain that we will, if we roll up our sleeves and get to work.
 
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