The true recreational fisherman are getting BLINDSIDED

[fish4all]

You mean, kind of like... Hunting is now covered under the Fisheries Act?

no need to stir the pot on this one charlie, was just trying to point out the diff between right and privledge.

Or, do you really mean the commercial (YOUR) TAC has decreased, due to the weight dropping, while the population in Area 2B, has actually increased? Nothing 1/2 true there? LOL

Charlie I have done over 13yrs of research on hali and I can tell you the stocks do not look that great. yes part of the problem is size at age but if you talk to the commies, more so in the north, the fish are not on the grounds. Yes area 2b had a very small increase this year compared to other areas but i don't think i would hang my hat on that just yet nor would i be asking for increased limits just yet either.

I have read most of your posts and you are quite up to speed on some of the iphc stuff. I have a couple of questions for you.
1) Why do you think area 2b is the only area that appears to have leveled off and actually has a slight increase?
2) what are your thoughts on local depletion given that a number of pit tags that were released were caught on the exact same location 2-4 years later?

 

[GLG]

[FONT=&quot]I’ll take a stab at why the fish are not there. Area 2b has video on all their boats and has fished to the TAC or stayed under. Therefore the 2b fish stocks are recovering after the last big commercial fish out. See those video cameras that your industry was forced to get might just be working. Alaska has not implemented video monitoring so the foxes are still guarding the chicken coup. If that doesn’t explain it perhaps the wastage number from the commercial sector is a lot larger than reported. You know those non marketable (undersize) and by catch that goes over the side to become crab food. Perhaps the lost commercial gear that’s keeps killing is keeping the numbers down. How about the scarred ocean floors the trawl nets makes as they destroy habitat on each pass. I don’t know maybe it’s because of commercial over fishing.[/FONT]

 

[Charlie]

no need to stir the pot on this one charlie, was just trying to point out the diff between right and privledge.


Charlie I have done over 13yrs of research on hali and I can tell you the stocks do not look that great. yes part of the problem is size at age but if you talk to the commies, more so in the north, the fish are not on the grounds. Yes area 2b had a very small increase this year compared to other areas but i don't think i would hang my hat on that just yet nor would i be asking for increased limits just yet either.

I have read most of your posts and you are quite up to speed on some of the iphc stuff. I have a couple of questions for you.
1) Why do you think area 2b is the only area that appears to have leveled off and actually has a slight increase?
2) what are your thoughts on local depletion given that a number of pit tags that were released were caught on the exact same location 2-4 years later?

Well, don’t believe it is me stirring anything?

Since you want to start comparing Area 2B with all the other Areas… Go for it! However, I would suggest you post the correct information, or I really might start stirring your “pot”! I assure, I am well versed in the history of IPHC! One really needs to go back no further than 2004, for most of your answers! Hint (as “ding dong” always says)! Start reading!

If you believe all commercial halibut fishermen are in agreement with the current programs, and DFO’s current allocation program you might want to start here:

IN THE SUPREME COURT OF BRITISH COLUMBIA​

BETWEEN:​

LORNE NELS DA VID IVERSON​

PLAINTIFF​

​

AND:​

HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF CANADA, AS REPRESENTED BY THE MINISTER OF FISHERIES AND OCEANS, and​

PACIFIC HALIBUT MANAGEMENT ASSOCIATION OF B.C​

DEFENDANTS​

http://www.bcbusinesslawblog.com/EBL_DFO.pdf


Want to dig deeper….
I will repeat myself...”While I'm complimented about thoroughness & research all the time, this my friends - takes the cake! Well put together, fantastic recap - Great Job Matt! I highly suggest reading that topic and links provided. I copied the links which makes it easier to track! These are a couple of examples of the information provided and in particular, I found very interesting!”

What if the Halibut Shoe was on the Other Foot?

I really don’t care how long someone has been studying anything when it appears some is stating “half truths” or manipulating information (from anyone), guess what – I WILL STIR THAT POT!

I would highly suggest reading those RARA reports on the IPHC website! I would also highly suggest reading the links Nog provided!

Oh BTW... the commercial sector in Area 2B if not under anything - they are actually over several MILLION pounds!

 

[fish4all]

Well, don’t believe it is me stirring anything?

Since you want to start comparing Area 2B with all the other Areas… Go for it! However, I would suggest you post the correct information, or I really might start stirring your “pot”! I assure, I am well versed in the history of IPHC! One really needs to go back no further than 2004, for most of your answers! Hint (as “ding dong” always says)! Start reading!

If you believe all commercial halibut fishermen are in agreement with the current programs, and DFO’s current allocation program you might want to start here:

IN THE SUPREME COURT OF BRITISH COLUMBIA
BETWEEN:
LORNE NELS DA VID IVERSON
PLAINTIFF

AND:
HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF CANADA, AS REPRESENTED BY THE MINISTER OF FISHERIES AND OCEANS, and
PACIFIC HALIBUT MANAGEMENT ASSOCIATION OF B.C
DEFENDANTS​

http://www.bcbusinesslawblog.com/EBL_DFO.pdf


Want to dig deeper….
I will repeat myself...”While I'm complimented about thoroughness & research all the time, this my friends - takes the cake! Well put together, fantastic recap - Great Job Matt! I highly suggest reading that topic and links provided. I copied the links which makes it easier to track! These are a couple of examples of the information provided and in particular, I found very interesting!”

What if the Halibut Shoe was on the Other Foot?

I really don’t care how long someone has been studying anything when it appears some is stating “half truths” or manipulating information (from anyone), guess what – I WILL STIR THAT POT!

I would highly suggest reading those RARA reports on the IPHC website! I would also highly suggest reading the links Nog provided!

Oh BTW... the commercial sector in Area 2B if not under anything - they are actually over several MILLION pounds!

great you found that lorne is sueing DFO and named the PHMA in the case as well, did you find the part where lorne was a director for the phma and had signed the agreement that he is now suing himself over? I am very familiar with the case. Not sure what that has to do with the 2 questions i was asking your opinion about.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

A few other people have pulled out the conservation card too. David Suzuki foundation, Marine Conservation Caucus and Living Ocens Society to name a few. If any groups have lobby power it's these guys, to bad they are not on side with the rec sector. Time to clean up this sector guys.

Maybe these groups will actually help us get our sector "Cleaned" up as you put it. I do not know of any Sport Fishermen that I have talked to - EVER - that would not be willing to report their catches, work on pilot programs to develop a system that truely accounts for the fish that we take out the ocean so the DFO can't just use imaginary numbers to determine when our season starts and ends and how many fish we are allowed to harvest. DFO holds us to real tangible numbers in regulating us while fishing; Season start dates, Daily/Possesion limits, and season end dates, and they base these real numbers on absolutely imaginary, completely intangible, geusstimates and averages.

The real PROBLEM here is that the DFO appears to really not give two sh!ts about developing a system that provides true accountability for the Sport Sector. They won't listen to us or work with us, they just view us as a pain in their butt. So perhaps, even though these groups may not be "on side" with the "rec sector", maybe they will be able to apply even more political pressure on the DFO than we as individuals can, so that the DFO will actually get off their goddamned asses and do something here.

BTW these groups really don't want anyone taking fish out of the oceans, and if they were to pick sides here, logic says that they would lean towards the Sport fishery side as they take far fewer fish from the ocean and their methods and restrictions for fishing are far less efficient at removing fish from the oceans, thereby putting far less pressure on the fish stocks.

Just in case you missed it, here we are going into another new season for fishing and Still nothing from DFO to address this REALLY BIG ISSUE OF LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY for the Sport fishery. They really seem to be extremely concerned about this issue, I sure as hell know that I am!!! Not much pisses me off more than someone telling me what I can and can't do when they don't have a bloody clue what they are talking about!

Oh yeah, bcboy! If you are also concerned about the accountability of the Sport Sector, WE NEED TO GET EVERYONE WE KNOW TO CHIP IN AND HELP FIX THIS PROBLEM!!! Afterall this "PROBLEM" is NOT just the Sport Sector's problem, it is EVERYONES PROBLEM, it affects the accountability of the entire fishery overall.

 

[fish4all]

Maybe these groups will actually help us get our sector "Cleaned" up as you put it. I do not know of any Sport Fishermen that I have talked to - EVER - that would not be willing to report their catches, work on pilot programs to develop a system that truely accounts for the fish that we take out the ocean so the DFO can't just use imaginary numbers to determine when our season starts and ends and how many fish we are allowed to harvest. DFO holds us to real tangible numbers in regulating us while fishing; Season start dates, Daily/Possesion limits, and season end dates, and they base these real numbers on absolutely imaginary, completely intangible, geusstimates and averages.

The real PROBLEM here is that the DFO appears to really not give two sh!ts about developing a system that provides true accountability for the Sport Sector. They won't listen to us or work with us, they just view us as a pain in their butt. So perhaps, even though these groups may not be "on side" with the "rec sector", maybe they will be able to apply even more political pressure on the DFO than we as individuals can, so that the DFO will actually get off their goddamned asses and do something here.

BTW these groups really don't want anyone taking fish out of the oceans, and if they were to pick sides here, logic says that they would lean towards the Sport fishery side as they take far fewer fish from the ocean and their methods and restrictions for fishing are far less efficient at removing fish from the oceans, thereby putting far less pressure on the fish stocks.

Just in case you missed it, here we are going into another new season for fishing and Still nothing from DFO to address this REALLY BIG ISSUE OF LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY for the Sport fishery. They really seem to be extremely concerned about this issue, I sure as hell know that I am!!! Not much pisses me off more than someone telling me what I can and can't do when they don't have a bloody clue what they are talking about!

Oh yeah, bcboy! If you are also concerned about the accountability of the Sport Sector, CHIP IN AND HELP FIX THIS PROBLEM!!! Afterall this "PROBLEM" is NOT just the Sport Sector's problem, it is EVERYONES PROBLEM, it affects the accountability of the entire fishery overall. Don't just stand on the sidelines and take potshots.

great post and your right it is everyones problem. again right, the engos sided with the commies only because of the lack of proper catch reporting. That said, and it was not to pick a fight but to state a fact, what can the commies due to help put pressure on dfo for proper accounting?

Not that commies want to say how to manage the rec sector but where would you start?

 

[h-core]

great post and your right it is everyones problem. again right, the engos sided with the commies only because of the lack of proper catch reporting. That said, and it was not to pick a fight but to state a fact, what can the commies due to help put pressure on dfo for proper accounting?

Not that commies want to say how to manage the rec sector but where would you start?

Well, we could start by standing together against DFO. We (sporties) are easily offended by being called unaccountable because we all want to be as responsible as possible to the resources we hold so dear. The problem lies in the fact that we rely on DFO to manage the resources for us and they don't seem interested in the task. How hard would it really be to hire students to collect creel data at all marina's and launches? How hard would it be to make it mandatory for all guides and lodges to fill out log books and submit data weekly? How many pencil pushers in Ottawa would we need to loose to pay for such a program?

 

[Gunsmith]

To start if the DFO was doing an accurate tally on the sportfishery catch and threatening our season over fish we did not catch this issue would still be simmering on the back burner. I have spent two summers burning at least 6000 ltres of gas for 12 halibut and never was concerned about quantity. I just enjoyed myself. Now I feel threatened that I am going to lose what I like doing the most over lies and lack of concern from politicos and the Deaf Blind and Dumb DFO.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

great post and your right it is everyones problem. again right, the engos sided with the commies only because of the lack of proper catch reporting. That said, and it was not to pick a fight but to state a fact, what can the commies due to help put pressure on dfo for proper accounting?

Not that commies want to say how to manage the rec sector but where would you start?

It is not about any particular person or group determining how to manage the Sport Sector (SS), it is about getting DFO to actually do something to address the lack of accountability in the SS. Everyone is going to have to put their EGOS away and all of us contribute to the solution so that in the end of the day all sectors are satisfied with the accountability in all of the sectors.

As to the question of where to start, well how did the solution for accountability in the Commercial Sector (CS) come to fruition? How did DFO get a bright idea to make the CS accountable? Who applied the pressure? Did someone do all of the work for them and hand them a solution that they just had to sign off on? All I know is that at one time there was very little to no accountability for the CS and now there is excellent accountability (from what I can see), something changed, and DFO had to be involved at some point during that change. They had to be INTERESTED (or forced) into seeing a change!

Now obviously we can't put cameras on all of the SS boats, but I put a rough IDEA up on another thread that could have some legs (with refinements), http://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum...ishery-Q-amp-A&p=168149&viewfull=1#post168149 , but we have to get DFO to LISTEN and BUY INTO A CHANGE. DFO needs to stop treating the Sport Sector like the little brother that no one wants to play with, or else one of these days that "little brother" is going to grow up and give them a "black-eye".

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Well, we could start by standing together against DFO. We (sporties) are easily offended by being called unaccountable because we all want to be as responsible as possible to the resources we hold so dear. The problem lies in the fact that we rely on DFO to manage the resources for us and they don't seem interested in the task. How hard would it really be to hire students to collect creel data at all marina's and launches? How hard would it be to make it mandatory for all guides and lodges to fill out log books and submit data weekly? How many pencil pushers in Ottawa would we need to loose to pay for such a program?

This is all true h-core, but with an on-line data entry system, we could do all of the info contribution ourselves, without incurring a lot of extra costs. They (DFO) would have to put in a whole other department, I am sure, to compile and tabulate and study and translate that data into a language that only a lawyer would understand, but hey they already have someone (yeah right), I mean a department doing this for the Commercial Sector. They just have to have the WILL to do it, or else they have to be COMPELLED to do it!

 

[fish4all]

It is not about any particular person or group determining how to manage the Sport Sector (SS), it is about getting DFO to actually do something to address the lack of accountability in the SS. Everyone is going to have to put their EGOS away and all of us contribute to the solution so that in the end of the day all sectors are satisfied with the accountability in all of the sectors.

As to the question of where to start, well how did the solution for accountability in the Commercial Sector (CS) come to fruition? How did DFO get a bright idea to make the CS accountable? Who applied the pressure? Did someone do all of the work for them and hand them a solution that they just had to sign off on? All I know is that at one time there was very little to no accountability for the CS and now there is excellent accountability (from what I can see), something changed, and DFO had to be involved at some point during that change. They had to be INTERESTED (or forced) into seeing a change!

Now obviously we can't put cameras on all of the SS boats, but I put a rough IDEA up on another thread that could have some legs (with refinements), http://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum...ishery-Q-amp-A&p=168149&viewfull=1#post168149 , but we have to get DFO to LISTEN and BUY INTO A CHANGE. DFO needs to stop treating the Sport Sector like the little brother that no one wants to play with, or else one of these days that "little brother" is going to grow up and give them a "black-eye".

good post. no the commies did not put the cameras on without being pushed. It began with the possible sara listing of some of the older rockfish species and DFO wanting proper accounting of all encounters. DFO then put forward 4 points that the commercials had to satisfy(i can find these if you are interested). The different groundfish fleets met for almost 3 years with personal agendas getting in the way of making it to the finish line. DFO then came forward with "either you make it work or you are tied to the dock" position. There was an answer within 6 months. This process is what is now called the commercial industry caucus and every groundfish sector has at least 2 reps at the table. In the beginning it split the sectors and fleets were pissed at the change. Today it has gotten msc certification and acknowledged around the world as the best managed fishery in the world and it is accepted by the majority of the fishermen. I re-read your last post and you have some good ideas. I will imagine you will be faced with the same push back from your sector as the commies had from theirs. People are afraid of change and that is human nature.

 

[Gunsmith]

If we lobbied the Government the way it is done in the states we would get attention very fast. We could start by Tackle companies and television programs and who ever else will be affected by an early closing season for halibut we could be surprised by a sizeable influence. And rather than trying to yell during a thunderstorm and not being heard, we would be walking softly and carrying a big stick.
Downrigger companies, outboard builders. fishing gear, boatbuilders and more just think of it.

 

[Lipripper]

Your salt water (rec) licence has your id number.... you have the password.. Enter your information. I might give a different number than what DFO hits the board at. Could be better could be worse?

It would be an honor system but, hey, How many times have you been checked in the last couple years..... It's an honor system already?

 

[fish4all]

Well, we could start by standing together against DFO. We (sporties) are easily offended by being called unaccountable because we all want to be as responsible as possible to the resources we hold so dear. The problem lies in the fact that we rely on DFO to manage the resources for us and they don't seem interested in the task. How hard would it really be to hire students to collect creel data at all marina's and launches? How hard would it be to make it mandatory for all guides and lodges to fill out log books and submit data weekly? How many pencil pushers in Ottawa would we need to loose to pay for such a program?

excellent ideas. one small glitch is that the logbooks today are voluntary. The only way to make them creditable is to make them mandatory and that would take a proper provincial license for the lodges and charters(probably going to get a little crap over this part)to be put in place with the logbook being a condition of license. may sound a little scary but if you are a lodge/charter that is above board then i fail to see an issue. In time the license would increase in value and when retirement time comes there is something to sell.

 

[fish4all]

Your salt water (rec) licence has your id number.... you have the password.. Enter your information. I might give a different number than what DFO hits the board at. Could be better could be worse?

It would be an honor system but, hey, How many times have you been checked in the last couple years..... It's an honor system already?

I mean no disrespect but dfo and science has little use for honor. possibly a tag number to go along with the id#...just a thought.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

good post. no the commies did not put the cameras on without being pushed. It began with the possible sara listing of some of the older rockfish species and DFO wanting proper accounting of all encounters. DFO then put forward 4 points that the commercials had to satisfy(i can find these if you are interested). The different groundfish fleets met for almost 3 years with personal agendas getting in the way of making it to the finish line. DFO then came forward with "either you make it work or you are tied to the dock" position. There was an answer within 6 months. This process is what is now called the commercial industry caucus and every groundfish sector has at least 2 reps at the table. In the beginning it split the sectors and fleets were pissed at the change. Today it has gotten msc certification and acknowledged around the world as the best managed fishery in the world and it is accepted by the majority of the fishermen. I re-read your last post and you have some good ideas. I will imagine you will be faced with the same push back from your sector as the commies had from theirs. People are afraid of change and that is human nature.

So it sounds like the DFO was handed a solution that met the four criteria that they had, and then they signed off on it. They did not actually put the system together? The representatives of the Ground-fish Sectors put it together?

We need to get people involved that have expeience with getting results from DFO, as this appears to be a larger problem than fixing the individual issues with the fisheries. if the experienced people are involved, then perhaps we can come up with a solution that we can at least start with to gain some accountability in the Sport Sector, so that REAL numbers can start to be used to make decisions.

Yes we in general are all afraid of change. But we are also afraid of waiting around for whatever decision DFO hands out to us every year, and then we are pissed all year that we have been short changed based on a decision that was based on inconclusive data and guesstimates. At least with real accountability we will know that if we overfished or underfished the % given to us, we will have a solid leg to stand on to argue for more percentage or what have you. We don't really KNOW if we overfish or underfish the % that is alloted to us today, NOBODY TRUELY DOES!

 

[fish4all]

So it sounds like the DFO was handed a solution that met the four criteria that they had, and then they signed off on it. They did not actually put the system together? The representatives of the Ground-fish Sectors put it together?

We need to get people involved that have expeience with getting results from DFO, as this appears to be a larger problem than fixing the individual issues with the fisheries. if the experienced people are involved, then perhaps we can come up with a solution that we can at least start with to gain some accountability in the Sport Sector, so that REAL numbers can start to be used to make decisions.

Yes we in general are all afraid of change. But we are also afraid of waiting around for whatever decision DFO hands out to us every year, and then we are pissed all year that we have been short changed based on a decision that was based on inconclusive data and guesstimates. At least with real accountability we will know that if we overfished or underfished the % given to us, we will have a solid leg to stand on to argue for more percentage or what have you. We don't really KNOW if we overfish or underfish the % that is alloted to us today, NOBODY TRUELY DOES!

exactly. industry built it and dfo stamped it. DFO still sits at the table but it is more for advice then anything else.

Definitly better to find a solution then to have one stuffed down your throat.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

It would be an honor system but, hey, How many times have you been checked in the last couple years..... It's an honor system already?

Yep, both the fihsing and hunting systems are always going to have an element of honesty and integrity to them (both are traits that I have encountered more often than not in people that participate in these activities from over the years).

Now sure there will always be a couple of bad apples in every barrel, but if the system is designed with checks and balances that make it very dificult to cheat the system, and the penalties for cheating the system are VERY steep, then it will keep the dishonesty to a minimum. It would sure as hell suck to pay a $10,000 fine, and loose ones truck and boat and gear for the sake of cheating the system on a $50.00-$100.00 fish.

Make it so that if you try to screw the sytem, you will get screwed severely if caught, and yes step up the enfocement from time to time and move the enforcement checkups around. Check out on the water, (RCMP, DFO, Coast Guard), check at the boat ramps, marinas, fuel docks, on the road when you are dragging the rig home, if you don't know when or where you will get checked, the shady guys will have to think twice before cheating.

 

[fish4all]

where were you when they picked the negotiating team??

 

[Fish-Hunter]

where were you when they picked the negotiating team??

Since we have been bouncing info back and forth for a bit here, is this question directed at me?

If so, did you mean for it to be rehtorical?
If not... my answer is;

I was not and still am not in the loop for forming a negotiation team, to put it honestly I have not actively pursued these issues at hand today in the past, just had my head down and wasn't paying attention. My attention is captured now, and although I personally am not in a position in life to sit in on full time negotiations, I am willing to contribute in any way possible to enact a change. I want there to be something left for my kids and their kids. I want to see the system fixed.

There is no better day than today to make a change, if what we are doing today isn't working!