The sound of saving salmon

[Rockfish]

They did it on the Puntledge River and did not kill or injure anyone but the seals.
Proved beyond a doubt that culls work.

FN can cull all the seals they want and no government will stand up to them.

I seem to recall they did it from a tree stand above the river. If that is correct, they would be shooting down into the river which should mitigate the risk of rifle bullet travel distance and that steep an angle would not result in bullet deflection off the surface of the water. Think of it as like skipping a smooth flatish rock off the water when you were a kid. To get it to skip on the water, a very shallow angle of entry was important, as was getting as much speed on it as you could.

With hunting regs. a few areas are "shotguns with multiple projectiles only" because of the long range risk that a high powered rifle would represent because of closeness to people and structures. Shotguns with multiple projectiles have only a fraction of the range of a high power rifle and do not have the projectile speed to cause a high risk of projectile deflection compared to a high power rifle. I would think shotgun buckshot (SSG) for deer hunting would also be effective on seals.

 

[ILHG]

Whether effective or not, a cull is a short term fix, and not a long term solution. As is usual, we normally look at a problem and point the finger at someone or something else being the cause of the problem, when in fact we should look in the mirror at ourselves (ie people)
Our habits, our behiours, our god given rights ( and I am not refering to natives). If society and humanity does not change, we will continue to argue and point fingers,; implementing band aid solutions to appease the groups affected while our natural resources dwindle away to nothing

You have valid points. Where I live the wolf and coyote numbers exceed pre white man. Reason being is have way more deer than pre white man. A conservation officer told me this is due to all the cut lines and agricultural land that has made much more food and easier traveling along cut lines.

A balanced approach to predator control works.

Human beings are an animal and like all animals we will and do affect the environment.

I have heard seal & sealion numbers are higher than historical.?

 

[wildmanyeah]

Predation accounts for mortality, remove the predation and you increase survival.

It’s funny that if I go out and Bonk a salmon everyone agrees that I have killed that fish and decreased the population.

but if a seal goes and does that that some how it’s all part of the eco system and that seals predation is gods gifts to the planet some how keeping it all in balance . Kum by ya kum by ya

i really have a hard time understanding that logic.

 

[littlechucky]

Clearly some debate as to whether culls are effective....but it seems like Google ads had the algos dialed!

 

[ILHG]

Clearly some debate as to whether culls are effective....but it seems like Google ads had the algos dialed!

View attachment 58997

That's halarious! Wow....

 

[part time]

I doubt that anyone would argue that a "cull" is effective. However, the point is that it is short sighted and does not provide a long term solution to the problem

 

[agentaqua]

Predation accounts for mortality, remove the predation and you increase survival.

It’s funny that if I go out and Bonk a salmon everyone agrees that I have killed that fish and decreased the population.

but if a seal goes and does that that some how it’s all part of the eco system and that seals predation is gods gifts to the planet some how keeping it all in balance . Kum by ya kum by ya

i really have a hard time understanding that logic.

The other parallel misleading and disingenuous narrative developed and promoted by some marine mammal "enthusiasts" that I have trouble reconciling the logic - is that the ocean is to complicated to mess with and that we should therefore sit on our hands and do nothing about seals since we are (presumably dictated by them) separate from our ecosystem.

Yet these same "enthusiasts" are figuratively jumping up and down demanding that we do something for the SRKW - like instituting fishing restrictions - often w/o even an understanding of timing, presence and migratory patterns of the stocks that may be targeted by the SRKW. They appear to not worry about "unintended consequences" then - since it does not affect them. No demanding that the ocean is to complicated to mess with and that there are "unintended consequences" and so therefore we should sit on our hands and do nothing about another marine mammal - the SRKW.

Bloody hypocritical... and they need to be called on it.

A conversation about what is plausible, logistically feasible and ultimately successful is welcome - which includes the potential for a cull. I don't buy the "holier-than-thou" attitude and narrative, tho.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10164582774455215

 

[RalphH]

Predation accounts for mortality, remove the predation and you increase survival.

No it is not that simple and that is the problem, "organizations" like PBPS and PBMM are trying to sell this on the assumption it is that simple. Most of the literature I have looked at shows that predator control does not yield a clean and simple change in mortality of prey species. Changes can be quite complex, negative and unexpected. Both these organizations and their directors just present us with the rather limited data that supports their position.

 

[agentaqua]

No it is not that simple and that is the problem, "organizations" like PBPS and PBMM are trying to sell this on the assumption it is that simple. Most of the literature I have looked at shows that predator control does not yield a clean and simple change in mortality of prey species. Changes can be quite complex, negative and unexpected. Both these organizations and their directors just present us with the rather limited data that supports their position.

EXACTLY! There is quite a bit of both scientific & anecdotal info out there that confirms the fact that pinnipeds can and are causing high mortalities on some salmon species life history stages in many places. Typically, it's ~50% mortality on outmigrating coho and Chinook smolts by harbour seals and similar #s on in-migrating Chinook and chum by sea lions - at choke points, particularly - like estuaries. I have not yet seen those data promoted or even accepted by the enthusiasts - due to what I believe is their bias and emotional bonding with their narrative that they are trying to promote. I call that dishonest.

 

[wildmanyeah]

Changes can be quite "complex, negative and unexpected"

This is the anti human harvest sentiment being promoted and can be applied to any species

I put more weight to the argument when it is applied the lower level food chain items like Krill and herring. I put less weight to the augment when applies to predator's such as seals who roll in natural is often rodent control.

 

[RalphH]

Changes can be quite "complex, negative and unexpected"

This is the anti human harvest sentiment being promoted and can be applied to any species

I put more weight to the argument when it is applied the lower level food chain items like Krill and herring. I put less weight to the augment when applies to predator's such as seals who roll in natural is often rodent control.

you really need to look at some of the scientific literature on the results culls actually produce and not what those promoting them say they will achieve. I mean nobody culls animals like krill or herring. That's more akin to what people like Carl Walters are recommending - outright slaughter or 10s of thousands of animals per year. Similar approaches with predators like wolves ( or Grizzly Bears) in most of North America resulted in later less desirable s results such much larger populations of coyote or coyotes moving in eco-niches that wolves previously kept them out of - like here in the Lower Mainland and coyotes are harder to control than wolves. They also move right into suburban and urban spaces which wolves do not.

The next fallacy is what rational is there to harvest seals or sea lion - negligible market for the pelts and little for the meat. You need markets to support a harvest. Demand is currently more than met by other producers (ie Iceland and Greenland). Seal meat from BC is currently "not recommended" for human consumption.

Oh and another item I want to point out is that the PBPS and PBMM like to state the US has changed it's laws to allow culling of sea lion and seals. But what those laws actually allow is the killing of about 700 animals over a period of 5 years specifically targeted at animals that are observed large consumers of endangered salmonids at specific locations, most often those that have been altered by human activity in ways that magnifies exposure of those fish to pinniped predation and nothing comparable to killing 10s of thousand per year over 5 or more year and recommended by Dr. Walters.

 

[wildmanyeah]

I mean nobody culls animals like krill or herring.

don’t we aim to cull 20% of the SOG spawning herring biomas each year?

 

[RalphH]

EXACTLY! There is quite a bit of both scientific & anecdotal info out there that confirms the fact that pinnipeds can and are causing high mortalities on some salmon species life history stages in many places. Typically, it's ~50% mortality on outmigrating coho and Chinook smolts by harbour seals and similar #s on in-migrating Chinook and chum by sea lions - at choke points, particularly - like estuaries. I have not yet seen those data promoted or even accepted by the enthusiasts - due to what I believe is their bias and emotional bonding with their narrative that they are trying to promote. I call that dishonest.

Other studies on other salmon predators in different environments usually yield predation in the same range - 35 to 70%. When one stops to think about this it really fits in with what we have long accepted about salmon life cycles; females lay thousands of eggs and of those something like .03% to .6% (at best) hatch and survive to return to their native streams as adults. Not taking that context into consideration when evaluation seal and other predation is also dishonest.

 

[agentaqua]

Agreed, RalphH - everything needs to be on the table. All options - including the feasibility & likely success of a cull.

With respect to ocean survival rates and spawner/recruit numbers - the single biggest issue recognized and accepted is ocean survival rates (OSR) - particularly the early entrants life history stages. Unfortunately the ocean survival rates are often less than 2% - sometimes much less (e.g. ECVI coho stocks). A doubling of those OSRs would be a great improvement - or halving the mortality.



And if you follow the changes in human fishing mortality over the years - especially in the "Salish Sea" area - it is but a small fraction of what it used to be. Walters (among others) has compiled those data.



If you use Google Scholar or another similar search engine - those peer-reviewed studies (the most recent ones largely in the "Salish Sea" area) about the impacts of pinnipeds on salmon - particularly on coho, sockeye and Chinook. Lead authors such as Sorel, Walters, Aart, Chasco, & Nelson are among those researchers publishing in this field that you may wish to read. They all confirm that pinnipeds are a problem for those species and life history stages as previously described.

And yes hatcheries also enter into that discussion especially when discussing release strategies such as timing, numbers and sizes of released smolts.

And then there's the very large body of so-called "anecdotal" experiences - often called that when a marine mammal enthusiast wishes to try to discount or minimize other's alternative input or narrative - or alternatively often called TEK or "Traditional Ecological Knowledge" when they do not. I find TEK/anecdotal experiences very accurate when describing patterns - but the underlying causal mechanisms (and ultimately appropriate management actions) often need more focus and work unpeeling the layers on that onion.

 

[IronNoggin]

Oh and another item I want to point out is that the PBPS and PBMM like to state the US has changed it's laws to allow culling of sea lion and seals. But what those laws actually allow is the killing of about 700 animals over a period of 5 years specifically targeted at animals that are observed large consumers of endangered salmonids at specific locations, most often those that have been altered by human activity in ways that magnifies exposure of those fish to pinniped predation and nothing comparable to killing 10s of thousand per year over 5 or more year and recommended by Dr. Walters.

Now over 9,000 Sea Lions culled in the US (Washington chiefly).
Specialized traps and related program.
Guess you were wrong again Ralph.

 

[RalphH]

Now over 9,000 Sea Lions culled in the US (Washington chiefly).
Specialized traps and related program.
Guess you were wrong again Ralph.

Is there a verified source to support hat number? That was what I asked previously.

 

[IronNoggin]

Is there a verified source to support hat number? That was what I asked previously.

NOAA
Fill your boots

 

[RalphH]

NOAH
Fill your boots

Ok. Good for you. For some people it's the very little things that makes them happy.

 

[RalphH]

NOAH
Fill your boots

oh and I think it's NOAA, not NOAH unless the 9,000 sea lions were harvested by some guys in an ark.

see ya!

 

[agentaqua]

oh and I think it's NOAA, not NOAH unless the 9,000 sea lions were harvested by some guys in an ark.

see ya!