the popemobile is getting tired

What about just removable plugs for the scuppers ? I have seen this with boats that sit low in the back and water comes in and if your not wearing boots your feet get wet. Can remove the plugs anytime you want ? Or can he build the ping pong ball system like where water goes out but not in ? How much water are you really going to be taking over the bow and into the boat ? Not like its going to be taking on 20 gallons at a time..
Its a TC certification thing, and more importantly a safety thing.

The boat has the ping pong ball scupper plugs but theyre not 100% watertight, and with the boat so close to the waterline unloaded those scuppers can quickly become a liability.

Idk how much offshore fishing youve done in an open boat but 20 gallons isnt even that big of a wave. It can happen and if it happens I dont want to be relying on my batteries and bilge, which is why I wanted the self bailing deck in the first place. Ive had a foot of water sloshing around in a whaler before and its an unnerving experience.

Ive already spent over 30k on power, controls, trailer, electronics, pumps, batteries, etc. The hull fabrication was quoted at 30k but he went way over budget on time and a few other things, so im probably looking at 40k minimum and maybe as much as 50k or more for the hull when the dust settles. Thats a lot of money to me, and I was assured he could build me exactly what I want. The self bailing deck was very high on my list. I dont think its something I could (or should have to) settle on.
 
Its a TC certification thing, and more importantly a safety thing.

The boat has the ping pong ball scupper plugs but theyre not 100% watertight, and with the boat so close to the waterline unloaded those scuppers can quickly become a liability.

Idk how much offshore fishing youve done in an open boat but 20 gallons isnt even that big of a wave. It can happen and if it happens I dont want to be relying on my batteries and bilge, which is why I wanted the self bailing deck in the first place. Ive had a foot of water sloshing around in a whaler before and its an unnerving experience.

Ive already spent over 30k on power, controls, trailer, electronics, pumps, batteries, etc. The hull fabrication was quoted at 30k but he went way over budget on time and a few other things, so im probably looking at 40k minimum and maybe as much as 50k or more for the hull when the dust settles. Thats a lot of money to me, and I was assured he could build me exactly what I want. The self bailing deck was very high on my list. I dont think its something I could (or should have to) settle on.
You shouldn’t have to compromise at all on this issue. It’s major!!
 
Agreed on not compromising. This is a huge miss no matter how good the build quality was. I also agree that there is zero chance of any mods that will give you the 3" you are looking for. I know my boat is bigger with a full pod and twins but even with a full load of fuel and people on the back deck could I get it to squat 3". I can't imagine trying to give it that much lift. But enough of what you already know...Good luck with whatever decision you make.
 
I had my suspicions when I first saw the boat in person but he assured me it would be good, so I quickly put that out of my mind. It wasnt until last friday when i spoke to him and he told me how it sat on his test drive that I really started to panic.

I dont want to spend 80k on a frankensteined boat. If he were to do that, which i wouldnt be happy with at all, he'd have to re-wrap it, redeck it, rip out the console and bench, redo the under gunnal storage, apply new nonslip paint, possibly rerun the wiring and cables, it opens a huge can of worms. Its a great boat as it is, its just not a self bailing deck.
To be realistic, an open boat like that must be self bailing. The possibility for disaster is way too way high otherwise, you just can't depend on bilge pumps as your only line of defence against water. I know i owned one like that years ago..
 
If this was just your personal chum bucket the equation would be different.
You are going to be taking out paying passengers, you cannot put them into a boat with such an issue.

My heart aches at this situation.

Sounds like you did everything correct and relied on the builder's assurance that it would float on the intended lines.
I do not see a 'win win' resolution to this, stick to your guns.
 
Its not for me to say but probably atleast 40k if I had to guess
 
Its a great boat for somebody, it just wont work for what I want it for. I dont think hed have a hard time selling it either. Hopefully thats true and there are no hard feelings and he can build me the boat I want, it sucks not having a boat!
 
Well heres an update, sort of.

I spoke with an engineer from transport canada today, as well as my builder afterwards. Before I begin Id like to make it clear that I respect the work my builder does as well as his company, and Im not trying to drag his name or his companys name through the mud, but I do take issue with one design aspect in particular of the build. Its hard to discuss this candidly without sounding like Im taking shots at him, and its something Ive tried to stay mindful of ever since the sea trial when I first confirmed that there was an issue with how the deck sat in relation to the waterline. I respect the fact that he has many years experience as a builder at various local shops on the island, but with that said Ive also been operating boats all my life and I feel pretty confident in my own ability to assess how safe a vessel is and how a safe vessel should operate. Everything that I say here is said with the utmost respect for my builder, the process, and the boat in question. Its a quality vessel that provides a smooth ride and has some awesome features, but there are issues in the design that make it likely not the vessel for me.

After poring over countless TC pdf files, it turns out the 3" deck height minimum when under full load, and with anti-flowback devices, is for boats built up to 2005. Anything built after 2005 falls under whats set out in various ISOs - Insustry Organization Standards. For boats in the class and size of the one in question, a lot of it comes down to a practical floatation and stability test. Crudely put, the engineer I spoke to with TC advised me to get 5 people and some weight to simulate gear and pile it all in 1 corner and see what happens. He suspected as did I that this would put the deck below the waterline, but emphasized that this is the only way to know for sure. In order for it to be TC certified as a passenger vessel, I would have to pay an engineer to perform this test and give it a rating (effectively a rubber stamp by the engineer and builder that guarantees its safety for x amt of people and x amt of weight) and then submit the paperwork to TC. So in effect I didnt get any hard and fast answers to my questions but I got a general sense of what would be acceptable.

Personally I feel that if the deck isnt dry under fully loaded conditions during a stability test, its not something I want. When I ordered the boat I made it clear that I wanted an offshore style hull with a self bailing deck and foam floatation, with everything done to TC certifiable standards for guiding. Like Ive said before if Im investing this much money in a vessel that I plan to keep for many years to come, I dont want to have to settle on things like standing water in the stern. The TC engineer agreed although he wouldnt say how exactly standing water in the stern would affect the TC certification. With a known builder who has a proven design this isnt normally a problem but it seems to be bit of a grey area in this scenario.

So after all of this, I spoke with my builder. He told me that he had added some weight to the bow chain locker (100lbs) as well as more weight in the bow storage compartment (200lbs) and then filled a container in the stern with 120 litres of water, and had 2 friends standing on the transom to simulate a full load. He said the boat sat above the waterline and no water entered the deck. He also mentioned that he had added some isolation valves throughout the boat, and I believe he may have moved the gas tank and widened the pod a few inches. To me these are bandaid fixes and Im not satisfied with them. Additionally, the test described above is not how a real stability test is performed. We went back and forth a bit and I reiterated my preference that he sell the hull to someone else and start my build over if that was possible. He suggested that I come to Campbell River and see for myself the results of the changes he made. I am sure that in theory a balance could be achieved by juggling the weight in the boat, disregarding the effect on the stance of the boat and its performance, but in a practical sense thats not what a stability test is about, and the only purpose his test serves is to mask the issue. Boats are not always perfectly balanced. When guiding, often people will rush to one side of the boat to get a glimpse of the action. Sometimes the boat will be loaded with fish and ice as well as passengers and that amount of weight cant always be managed in an ideal way. Sometimes weight shifts. Sometimes youll take a wave over the side or bow. Things happen on the water, and a stability test is designed to test the safe limits of a vessel - not to hide them from view.

So where does this leave me? I guess I have to take a trip to CR next week and perform my own stability test, which will be much more rigorous than a simple balancing act in disguise. I suspect the deck will sit under water with a heavy load in one corner, water will seep in through the ping pong style scuppers, and Ill be left feeling the same way about the issue that I felt before I made the 7 hour round trip. Perhaps Ill be proven wrong but at this point I feel quite strongly that the best solution is to part ways with this hull and have it built with higher sides and a higher seated deck.

Congrats if you made it through reading all that. :cool:
 
Best of luck my friend. This thread has had it all. The joy of the build, The disappointment of execution. And most of all a guy who stood by the builder when most of us would not. I hope this weekend test is not tacit approval of you needing to complete the purchase.
 
I'm not going to give advice because I never do. But I will say two things.

1) I would try to keep an open mind about the changes; maybe he's nailed it. This stuff does happen and boats that cost ten times as much come back with punch lists of things to change.

2) if it really doesn't work for you, I would consider this: for anyone who does inshore fishing, that boat will be perfect. At rest, an inch between the waterline and the scuppers means that rain will never be an issue. Anyone who wants a boat for ECVI etc would be lucky to have that thing. If you ultimately turn it down, it'll end up with someone who thinks you were nuts for walking away. The builder might not get full custom money for it but in this market it'll move in a hurry and you probably won't be leaving him holding an empty bag.

Hell of a lot of open boats out there running the ocean with less room than that under the scuppers. You know what you want and what you agreed to, and if this isn't that, then it isn't that. But it'd be a great boat for lots and lots of people. It sure looks beautiful, and well built also.
 
Just to clarify, it was the deck that sat 1 inch above the waterline at rest, and that was with 0 passengers or gear on board. The scuppers sat at or below the water level.
 
Just to clarify, it was the deck that sat 1 inch above the waterline at rest, and that was with 0 passengers or gear on board. The scuppers sat at or below the water level.
Ah, got it. I have only ever put scuppers level with the deck; the confusion was mine. I was thinking your scuppers were level with the deck, and they were both an inch above the water.
 
Went out today, and really pushed the boat to the limit. It performed better than I had expected tbh. The last thing I want is for one of us to have a sour taste in their mouth over this, and I dont want to drag his or his companys name through the mud. As I said before I respect my builder and the work he does, he really put a lot of effort and passion into this project and it shows. Its still one hell of a fishing machine, but Im not sure its designed to do everything I would be asking of it, which admittedly is a lot. I dont want to get ahead of myself either because there are still a number of variables in play.

Sorry to leave you all hanging like this, but the good news is we should be able to reach a solution that everyone can be satisfied with. We had good dialogue today and I feel much better about things going forward.

I hope to have a more concrete update for those interested in the coming days.
 
I should also mention I greatly appreciate the fact that my builder is willing to work with me on a solution that works for everybody and isnt just trying to stick me with something Im not happy with. Obviously I dont have a ton of experience dealing with other shops out there as this is my first custom build but I doubt Id get the same treatment from some of the bigger names.
 
So heres a more concrete update, as promised.

It looks like my builder will sell the boat he already built, and restart my build some time around mid january, with an estimate build time of 2-2.5 months. All my equipment is installed on the boat he already built (lets call it boat #1), but we agree that its easier to just sell it as is and replace the equipment for the new build (lets call that one boat #2). So hopefully #1 will sell reasonably quickly and for a fair price, and if thats the case then theres no harm done and everythings good in the hood. Ive asked that #2 be essentially the same, but with 6 inch higher freeboard, and a higher seated deck. Its going to cost me more money than the first build but ig thats the cost of getting exactly what I want.

As far as boat #1 goes, its solid and will serve somebody well. Unfortunately it wouldnt have been capable of everything I wanted to do with it, but for most sportfishermen it will be an incredible vessel. I hope it can go to a good home and that whoever buys it will be happy with their purchase. For my stability test, I loaded it up in the back corner with more than enough weight to pass the TC test, and while the deck did sit underneath the waterline under these extreme conditions, water didnt enter the deck because of the pingpong style scuppers. I think its a perfectly capable vessel for ECVI and inshore WCVI under any normal fishable conditions, as well as offshore WCVI on calmer days or when loaded at less than max capacity. Im the kind of guy who tends to err on the side of caution with these things, so maybe a braver soul would have a different opinion.

If all goes well with boat #2, I expect it will be capable of all of the above, as well as venturing offshore on rougher days, and making longer commutes like from Hardy to Rivers. Im not saying Ill be looking to take a boatload of people offshore in rough seas, but I do want it to be capable of doing such things without feeling im putting myself or anyone else in danger.

With all of that said, I must say Im very appreciative of my builders flexibility and willingness to work through things with me. My biggest fear was that I could be left with no choice but to accept a boat that I wasnt quite happy with, or worse - a legal battle. Thankfully it didnt come to that! He can definitely build an incredible boat, and going forward I have no concerns after having seen his work first hand and knowing we're on the same page now. It wouldnt be fair if I didnt accept my share of the blame, as I think it was more of a miscommunication or misunderstanding than anything else.

Anyways heres a pic of the finished product (boat #1)
IMG_7265.jpg
 
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