The Future of Fish Farms ????

To quote from Upton Sinclair:

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it"

I think it's a very relevant quote for many people working in industries that are harmful/destructive and that have "externalities" that are not accounted for. Suffice to say fish farming in its current state in BC is one of those industries.

Absolutely right on Tincan!

You shouldn't in one sentence say "I am not insulting his intelligence" and 2 sentence later say "They are nevertheless ignorant and uneducated" when you've previously compared Birdsnest to a fundamentalist. I personally believe that anyone, including Birdsnest is perfectly capable of understanding the science if he approaches it with an open mind and perhaps has some help explaining the terminology and language to him. That's what I was offering to do. As my mom used to say, "You'll catch more flies with honey than with salt".

And Seadna for exactly the reason that Tincan has encapsulated nicely, I must respectfully disagree with you. You will NEVER get Birdsnest and his ilk to understand and more importantly accept the science, because it is not part of his belief system. He does not understand how science works; he does not understand a thing about peer reviewed science papers that you and I have explained in great detail. He dismisses anything which does not fit with his dogma and his indoctrination because he believes science is some sort of crooked conspiracy and all of the scientific establishment are the dupes of what he calls “activists”.
I submit such blind intransigence is exactly analogous to a Christian fundamentalist who ignores all the evidence for evolution. To adapt the quote above:-
"It is impossible to get a man to understand something when his faith/dogma depends on not understanding it"
 
Absolutely right on Tincan!



And Seadna for exactly the reason that Tincan has encapsulated nicely, I must respectfully disagree with you. You will NEVER get Birdsnest and his ilk to understand and more importantly accept the science, because it is not part of his belief system. He does not understand how science works; he does not understand a thing about peer reviewed science papers that you and I have explained in great detail. He dismisses anything which does not fit with his dogma and his indoctrination because he believes science is some sort of crooked conspiracy and all of the scientific establishment are the dupes of what he calls “activists”.
I submit such blind intransigence is exactly analogous to a Christian fundamentalist who ignores all the evidence for evolution. To adapt the quote above:-
"It is impossible to get a man to understand something when his faith/dogma depends on not understanding it"

Englishman,

As a professional biologist myself I find your post about Birdnest (and even Dave) to be pretty unbecoming of someone who considers himself a professional. Try keeping it above the waist. I agree with some others – you should have quit while you were ahead. Hitting below the belt only makes you look bad. It is alright to be passionate about your beliefs, but you do not need to be disrespectful. Even if someone is being difficult to deal or does not agree with your opinion you do not need to lose your composure. At least seadna is going about it the right way by trying to educate Birdsnest on how scientific papers are reviewed and published. Both are actually engaged in civil and respectful discussion. On the other hand, your discussions appear to descend into a mud-slinging match where your opinions get overshadowed by nasty remarks. I hope you do not deal with clients like this. Perhaps you have something to learn from both Birdsnest and seadna.
 
My perception from talking to him (AT THAT TIME - Spring 2012) was that ISA has definitely been observed in BC salmon but that it wasn't yet proven that the atlantic salmon farms were the source. I haven't followed the literature on that topic since May so I don't know what has been published since then. However, the increase in virulence that I mentioned (due to less selective pressure in farms) has been observed in ISA and it was a big problem in Chile. In that case it was clear that the source was from fry obtained from Norway.

ISA has definitely NOT been observed in BC, as that is the disease and the whole world would know about it! It is the virus, ISAv that has been observed and that will never be definite, until there is an ISA disease outbreak. In particular, what has currently been found would be the ISA Virus known as highly polymorphic region 0 (HPR0).

Maybe, this will save some a LOT of time! ISAv is and was probably introduced by the Norwegian open net fish farms into BC many years ago! The highly polymorphic region (HPR) is really key to where the two (soon to be three) genotypes orginate; however, what most miss (especially Norwegian Atlantic fish farmers) is “the most plausible mechanism is that each HPR comes from partial deletions of precursor HPR0.” Guess what… HPR0 is - NORWAY!

Now that everyone is currently using the term “ISA virus like” (as HPR0 can NOT be cultivated to confirm), BC currently has ISAv spreading and doing it’s think - “MUTATING” just as Morton is claiming! One needs to remember ISAv is a pathogen that principally affects salmon causing those other multisystemic disorders/diseases being found by both Miller and Morton. Those multisystemic disorders/diseases affect many of the salmon organ systems. In particular, I refer to what Miller is currently studying referred to as SLV, and Morton is finding in the field being those dead jaundice (yellow) wild salmon). It appears Morton is finding a disease knownly caused by ISAv, referred as infectious haemolytic anaemia. This disease was also found in Chile farmed Coho nine years prior to their official ISA “disease” outbreak. It is my belief, the “icterus condition” referred in the following article is the jaundice Morton is finding in those wild BC salmon.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17169103

ISAv is currently classified into two (soon to be more e.g. Chile) genotypes: European and North American. Both genotypes probably diverged in the year 1900, coinciding with the beginning of European salmon exports to America. Yep, one is going to have a hard time convincing “Me” those Norwegians didn’t knowingly export their ISAv around the world, including Canada. There is just why to many “peer reviewed” studies for them not to know.

It is by belief what is currently being found right now in BC is the ISAv referred to as HPR0. The reason for that belief is HPR0 has NOT been and can NOT be cultivated. Guess what else, ISAv (HPR0) has been reported in healthy fish (see above and google ISAv Chile 2005). It is suggested this form of ISAv (HPR0) is the nonvirulent precursor that could “MUTATE” and then generate the other genotypes than will KILL a LOT of those BC salmon both farmed and wild before it is contained.

“Through the sequence comparison of segments 2 and 8, ISAV isolates were classified into two genotypes: European and North American. Both genotypes probably diverged in the year 1900, coinciding with the beginning of European salmon exports to America (6, 31, 42). With the appearance of more isolates, it was established that strains from Norway, Scotland, the Faroe Islands, and Nova Scotia belong to the European genotype. On the other hand, Canadian and North American isolates are considered North American genotypes (13, 36, 63). Based on the similarity to segments 2 and 8 of Canadian virus isolates in 2001, Chilean ISAV isolated from infected Coho salmon was initially classified as the North American genotype (34, 56). However, comparisons made in 2009 of 51 sequences of segment 5 and 78 sequences of segment 6 from Chilean isolates, obtained from Atlantic salmon since 2007, showed that Chilean isolates have a Norwegian origin. Evidence strongly suggests that ISAV was introduced in Chile as an avirulent strain that mutated into a virulent strain (35).

“The most variable genomic elements of ISAV are located in segments that code for surface glycoproteins HE and F. The segment that encodes for HE has a mutation rate of 1.13 × 10[SUP]−3[/SUP] nucleotides (nt) per site per year and is the major determinant of variability. The variability of HE is located mainly in two regions, one localized in the N-terminal end, in the extracellular region of the protein. This region allows for classifying European isolates into three groups: group 1 contains only a few Norwegian isolates; group 2 contains isolates from Norway, one from the Faroe Islands and one from Scotland; and group 3 contains Scottish and Norwegian isolates (56).

“The second region located in the C-terminal end of HE, in the extracellular portion of the protein, close to a transmembrane domain (62), is considered the major determinant of variability. This region is highly variable among genotypes, so it was therefore defined as a highly polymorphic region (HPR) (13). Although it has been proposed that an HPR is the result of recombination (13), the most plausible mechanism is that each HPR comes from partial deletions of precursor HPR0 (12). This is supported by the fact that HPR0 contains every HPR sequences described until now, with HPR0 being the longest sequence. In addition, HPR0 has been reported in healthy fish, suggesting that it is a nonvirulent precursor that could generate the virulent strains described for ISAV (11, 12, 50, 56) through multiple deletions of its sequence. Nearly 30 different HPRs have been identified. It has been suggested that the diversity of HPR sequences provides antigenic variability (56). HPR was proposed as a virulence marker, with the most virulent strains containing HPR4 (36, 37, 50, 51), but some authors do not agree with that conclusion (65). Although every HPR in Chile has been identified, the most abundant is the genotype 7b, which originates from Norway (35).

“The other surface protein, the fusion protein, is also used to determine genetic variation in ISAV. The segment 5 sequence has a mutation rate of 0.67 × 10[SUP]−3[/SUP] nt per site per year (37), lower than that of HE. Close to the cleavage site, several isolates display an insertion of 8 to 11 amino acids (IN). To date, four insertions called IN1, IN2, IN3, and IN4 have been described. At the genomic level, IN1 is identical to the sequence of segment 3 from positions 1100 to 1123; IN2 is identical to the sequence from segment 5 located between nt 123 to 155, IN3 is identical to nt 93 to 122 of segment 5, and IN4 is identical to nt 399 to 429 of segment 2. This supports the notion of recombination between ISAV segments (14) as a source of variability. Notably, in an analysis of 51 Chilean isolates, 43 showed 11 amino acid insertions identical to IN4. This insertion has only been found in Chilean isolates (35). Recently, the IN region has been associated with virulence (25).
http://jvi.asm.org/content/84/22/11916.full


Here are some other links concerning ISAv:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21092282
http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao/35/d035p139.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21092282
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3003268/pdf/1743-422X-7-338.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15460541
http://jvi.asm.org/content/84/22/11916.full
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20979983
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18680586
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11411649
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20979983
 
Charlie, thanks for the links. You've definitely read more than I. The links will keep my busy in my spare time for the weekend. You are correct in stating that the disease hasn't been observed in many fish but there have been a small number of fish that appeared to show the symptoms of ISA and that were PCR positive for ISAv or and ISAv similar virus - correct? My point was that ISA virus sequences have been observed in BC fish but there was some confusion as to the exact source. The distinction between observing the virus and observing the disease is a valid one and thanks for pointing that out. The presence of the virus may or may not indicate that the disease is (or soon will be) around. However, as you point out, the viruses can mutate and it wouldn't be unusual if we do have a disease outbreak in the future due to viruses present in the population now.

As an aside, I did watch the Morton video last night. I didn't like the phrase "I'm racing an epidemic". I thought that was overstating what is happening now. It would be more accurate to state that she's studying the virus in the hope of preventing potential future epidemics. E.g. the words "potential and future" (what I call softening terms) would make the statements more consistent with what is happening now and what is known now.
 
Thanks for all the links, Charlie. It will take time to read them all but one sentence jumped out at me from your link; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11411649

"It is noteworthy that ISAV was associated with disease outbreaks in farmed Coho salmon in Chile without corresponding clinical disease in farmed Atlantic salmon. This outbreak, which produced high mortality in Coho salmon due to ISAV, is unique and may represent the introduction of the virus to a native wild fish population or a new strain of ISAV."

While there hasn't yet been a disease outbreak in B.C., the recent detections in Rivers Inlet sockeye and other Pacific salmonids in the area bode ill for the future.
 
Charlie, thanks for the links. You've definitely read more than I. The links will keep my busy in my spare time for the weekend. You are correct in stating that the disease hasn't been observed in many fish but there have been a small number of fish that appeared to show the symptoms of ISA and that were PCR positive for ISAv or and ISAv similar virus - correct? My point was that ISA virus sequences have been observed in BC fish but there was some confusion as to the exact source. The distinction between observing the virus and observing the disease is a valid one and thanks for pointing that out. The presence of the virus may or may not indicate that the disease is (or soon will be) around. However, as you point out, the viruses can mutate and it wouldn't be unusual if we do have a disease outbreak in the future due to viruses present in the population now.

I actually do, do a LOT of reading, do seperate opinions and peer reviewed studies. I have also actually done a LOT of research on salmon diseases, especially ISAv. There is NO doubt in my mind ISAv "IS" in BC. There is NO doubt in my mind farmed and wild salmon are currently dying due to ISAv diseases. Now with that said confirming any dead degraded salmon died from any ISAv created disease is another story. That has not been confirmed in BC and under current requirements and conditions it never will be. For example, when an Atlantic salmon dies from BKD that diesease very well could be the result of the ISAv; however, that fish is listed as dying from BKD and the ISAv is never tested for. The ONLY time ISAv and ISA disease is determined the cause of death has been during a MAJOR ISAv and ISA disease outbreak.

As an aside, I did watch the Morton video last night. I didn't like the phrase "I'm racing an epidemic". I thought that was overstating what is happening now. It would be more accurate to state that she's studying the virus in the hope of preventing potential future epidemics. E.g. the words "potential and future" (what I call softening terms) would make the statements more consistent with what is happening now and what is known now.
Strong - yes; however, based on the history of ISAv and ISA outbreaks I would tend to believe "racing an epidemic" very well could be a very true statement. As soon as that ISAv "MUTATES" BC is going to have a LOT of DEAD fish! Bless Alex, as she has currently done enough research on these diseases to realize that. In fact, I have been telling her for years that SLV is probably nothing more than a mutated ISAv. I actually believe (if allowed) Miller will prove that!
 
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Thanks for all the links, Charlie. It will take time to read them all but one sentence jumped out at me from your link; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11411649

"It is noteworthy that ISAV was associated with disease outbreaks in farmed Coho salmon in Chile without corresponding clinical disease in farmed Atlantic salmon. This outbreak, which produced high mortality in Coho salmon due to ISAV, is unique and may represent the introduction of the virus to a native wild fish population or a new strain of ISAV."

While there hasn't yet been a disease outbreak in B.C., the recent detections in Rivers Inlet sockeye and other Pacific salmonids in the area bode ill for the future.

That is correct and is why I posted that particular link! To put thinks in prospective… having any open net pens in BC it is not playing with dynamite – you are playing with pure nitroglycerin and it is just a matter of time before it blows!

It has been suggested and I do believe there are no new strains of ISAv and I do believe ALL strains of ISAv are only mutated forms of the HPR0, which did originate in and is from Norway.
 
To Shuswap, seadna and the others who have taken issue with Englishman's comment's towards Birdsnest as "unbecomming/unprofessional/disrespectful/etc". I have a real issue with this. Not to say that I don't respect civil and factual debate. In fact, I wish that this is the way in which our world was shaped... through reasonable discussion of facts/evidence/reasoned thinking. However, I'm sure that all of you who follow politics at any level can freely admit that this is not the case. Our world is unfortunately shaped by greed/bias/ideology/fear more so that fact/evidence/reasoned thinking. Despite the excellent work that many scientists do they have the inherent 'flaw' of being more passive/quiet/cautioned than the lobbyists, politicians, and corporations. As part of your (scientist's) job you are programmed to talk in a way that makes you seem 'soft' compared to the loud mouths that actually get sh*t done in the real world. Saying that something is 'very likely' in the world of scientist means a lot to scientists but the general public hears some lobbyist cry the opposite and say he's 100% sure and then the public doesn't know what to think (and usually goes with the loud mouth). I think in order for our world to move in the right direction we need more scientists and the like to start taking harder lines about the issue they know about and speak up and speak out for what is right. The soft voiced passive approach will not lead to the changes that we need at this point. The occasional 'below the belt' comment may be needed to start to tilt the playing field as at the moment science has been losing big time. Guys like Neil de Grasse Tyson and Richard Dawkins are a couple examples of the few scientists who have access to mainstream media and their relatively 'abrasive' attitudes are a big part of that.

As for Englishman's analogy of birdnest's view to that of a christian fundamentalist I don't see what the issue is other than some christians might not like being associated with fundamentalists... which is probably a good thing. If you define christian fundamentalist as someone who has 'blind faith' whereby no amount of evidence whatsoever will convince him, for instance, that the earth is older than 6,000 years than I don't see the comparison to someone who can't'/won't learn to understand the scientific method (peer-review in particular) as being that off-base. I know religion can be a touchy subject but the analogy is reasonable.

My 2 cents.

Englishman,

As a professional biologist myself I find your post about Birdnest (and even Dave) to be pretty unbecoming of someone who considers himself a professional. Try keeping it above the waist. I agree with some others – you should have quit while you were ahead. Hitting below the belt only makes you look bad. It is alright to be passionate about your beliefs, but you do not need to be disrespectful. Even if someone is being difficult to deal or does not agree with your opinion you do not need to lose your composure. At least seadna is going about it the right way by trying to educate Birdsnest on how scientific papers are reviewed and published. Both are actually engaged in civil and respectful discussion. On the other hand, your discussions appear to descend into a mud-slinging match where your opinions get overshadowed by nasty remarks. I hope you do not deal with clients like this. Perhaps you have something to learn from both Birdsnest and seadna.
 
p.s. I'm sure the readers of this forum will know that significant contributions that Englishman has made to this forum in terms of scientific research, analysis, and insight and see past this petty argument and get back to the real issue at hand which is "the future of fish farms". The fact that we've steered away from the actual science/facts/reasoned debate is exactly what happens in the public domain with these issues and a big reason why the lobbyists/corp shills get their way at the end of the day.
 
What is alarming is that wild salmon convert 10 to 1, thats 10 kg of wild natural feed to make 1 kg of "wild?" hatchery, ranched, or wild salmon.

Concerning the 10 pounds of prey to make one pound of wild-caught salmon comments. Yep, so what?

That by no means or represents wild salmon have a food conversion rate (FCR) of 10:1. And, please note when using that 10:1 that is talking prey, which has a very large water content and trying to compare that with farmed salmon fed compressed dry pellets? Also keep in mind those ranched and hatchery fingerlings referred are fed those same pellets; however eat very little! Actually there is no comparison between farmed and wild FCR to be made – at all!

In animal husbandry, feed conversion ratio (FCR), feed conversion rate, or feed conversion efficiency (FCE), is a measure of an animal's efficiency in converting feed mass into increased body mass. Specifically FCR is the mass of the food eaten divided by the body mass gain, all over a specified period. FCR is dimensionless, i.e. there are no measurement units associated with FCR.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feed_conversion_ratio

Add to the above, “Animal husbandry is the agricultural practice of breeding and raising livestock.” Now note Feed Conversion Rate (FCR) “is the number of pounds or kilograms of the ration needed to produce 1 pound or kilogram of animal under standard conditions.” Meaning the in reality there is “NO” FCR for any wild prey we humans catch, kill, and eat including salmon., as we don’t produce anything wild under standard conditions. Simply put, there is no human husbandry involved; therefore no FCR applies to wild animals.

Feed Conversion ratio (F.C.R.)
The ratio of the gain in the wet body weight of the fish to the amount of feed fed. The true F.C.R includes wasted feed and mortalities. The ratio, usually expressed as a true ratio (i.e. 1 : 1.5) is often quoted as a "rate" (1.5). Feed conversion ratios of less than 1 : 1 are possible with commercial diets, as the pellet being fed is a "dry" diet, and a high percentage of weight gained by the fish, is water trapped in the tissues and cells. Feed conversion ratios with commercial "dry" diets are typically in the region of 1 : 0.8 to 1 : 1.5. Ratios with wet diets are higher than this, and can be as high as 1 : 10. See also Feed Efficiency.

Wet Diet
A feedstuff that is (or is mostly) in it's raw state. Such diets include trash fish.

Feed Efficiency
A figure used to represent the efficiency of food use. The inverse of the feed conversion ratio e.g. a feed conversion ratio of 1 : 1.5 becomes a feed efficiency of 0.66 (1 / 1.5)
http://www.aquatext.com/list-f.htm

Now with the above, right on Mainstreams own website they state: “Salmon have the most efficient feed conversion ratio (FCR) of all [farmed livestock]” - emphasis added. That is only propaganda and IMHO actually is pure BS. To compare any animal that eats a renewable and sustainable food to a carnivorous salmon, which eats more than it produces at any rate is NOT sustainable! Anyone farming any carnivorous fish simply needs to teach their fish to eat grass, hay, soybeans, and other grains to be sustainable!

Does anyone other than the producer really care how much grass, hay, or grain beef or chicken eat? Personally, I do not! However, I do admit it was a surprise to learn how much fishmeal and oil the pork industry used. Then I am puzzled and must ask how the math works on Mainstream’s website? They state:
“Salmon 1.2 meaning it takes 120g of feed to produce 100g of salmon”
“Salmon feed only uses 1.265 kilograms of small wild fish to grow one kilogram of salmon.”
“Our feed is approximately 16 % fishmeal and 13 % fish oil”

Can anyone explain… That doesn’t seem to add up correctly to me. They state it takes 1.265 kilograms of small wild fish to grow one kilogram of salmon. So, when I convert that 1.265 kilograms it equals 1265g, meaning it takes 1265g of wild fish to produce one gram of salmon, while they state it takes 120g of the feed to produce 100g of salmon? Then what about the other 71% of that food? Anyone wondering how much of those pellets are now ground=up “chicken feathers”? Might want to look that one up and think about things like salmonellae there?

BTW... Just for the record, I really don't mind and usually do provide references, which normally come from "peer reviewed" studies. They normally are not my opinons and when they are I usually state so! :)
 
Open net pen fish farming of any carnivorous fish has NO future!

Not only is it the spreading of diseases killing BC's wild salmon... until those carnivorous fish learn how to eat soybeans open net pen fish farming of any carnivorous fish, be it Atlantic or Pacific salmon – has NO future! It is NOT sustainable.

Now along with that, for those who think or want to or are farming Pacific salmon, you might want to reconsider that, as that has the potential to being more devastating to the wild Pacific salmon than those Atlantics!

Sperm trait differences between wild and farmed Chinook salmon
(Oncorhynchus tshawytscha)

Sarah J. Lehnert a, Daniel D. Heath a,b, Trevor E. Pitcher b
a Great Lakes Institute for Environmental Research, University of Windsor, Windsor, Ontario, Canada N9B 3P4
b Department of Biological Sciences, University of Windsor, Windsor, Ontario, Canada N9B 3P

The expansion of salmon aquaculture, coupled with fish escaping from those sites, has raised concerns about the possible impacts of escaped farmed fish on wild fish populations. The potential for hybridization through reproductive interactions between escaped farmed and wild salmon can have significant impacts on the fitness and genetic composition of the natural population. Reproductive success of farmed male salmon in the wild will depend on their ability to compete for mates; however, it will also depend on their relative sperm performance, given that sperm competition is known to contribute to salmonid reproductive success. Farming practices, including the hormonal sex-reversal of females to create homogametic (XX) males, may have effects on sperm traits in salmon. We therefore analyzed sperm traits of XX farmed, XY farmed and wild Chinook salmon males during the spawning season. No significant difference was found between XX and XY farmed males for all sperm traits, except sperm density, which was significantly higher in XY males than XX males. XX and XY farmed males had significantly higher sperm motility and sperm velocity compared to wild males. In addition, wild males had lower sperm longevity and sperm density compared to farmed males. Our results indicate that farming practices may lead to increased sperm performance in Chinook salmon males. While we did not evaluate reproductive success resulting from spawning interactions in the wild, our results do highlight the potential for substantial introgression resulting from male–male competition between farmed and wild Chinook salmon in the wild.

Introduction
Salmon aquaculture is an economically important industry; however, there are increasing concerns about the potential impacts of interactions between farmed and wild fish (Hindar et al., 1991; Naylor et al., 2005; Skaala et al., 1990). These interactions are of major concern when considering escapes from aquaculture sites, because the unnatural and controlled aquaculture setting provides an especially different environment for fish to evolve in compared to the wild, resulting in phenotypic and genetic differences in the farmed populations (Heath et al., 2003; Skaala et al., 1990). The genetic changes occurring in aquaculture involve the loss of genetic diversity as well as the divergence of farmed stocks from the original wild population (Hindar et al., 1991; Skaala et al., 1990). Additionally, homogametic male fish (XX males) are used for commercial production of all female stocks, and if such fish escape and reproduce successfully in the wild they would skew the sex ratio in the wild population. Hybridization through reproductive interactions between escaped farmed and wild salmon is an immediate threat to the fitness and genetic composition of natural populations (Hindar et al., 1991; McGinnity et al., 2003; Naylor et al., 2005). For example, McGinnity et al. (2003) showed that farmed-wild hybrid offspring have lower survival compared to wild offspring, and that competition from farmed and hybrid offspring reduces wild smolt production in Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar).

The potential for hybridization between wild and farmed salmon will depend on numerous factors, although primarily on the reproductive success of escaped farmed individuals in the wild (Fleming et al., 1996). The effect of artificial rearing on salmon reproductive behavior and success has been widely studied showing, under experimental conditions, farm-raised, transgenic and hatchery salmon have reduced competitive and reproductive success compared to wild salmon (Berejikian et al., 2001; Fitzpatrick et al., 2011; Fleming and Gross, 1993; Fleming et al., 1996; Moreau et al., 2011; Weir et al., 2004). Although artificially reared males and females both experience lower reproductive success when in competition with wild fish, the lower reproductive success is more pronounced in males relative to females (Fleming and Gross, 1993; Fleming et al., 1996). Specifically, males show less aggression and partake in fewer spawning events than wild males; as well, they display inappropriate mating behavior resulting in females denying access to the oviposition site (Fleming and Gross, 1993; Fleming et al., 1996). In addition to those behaviors, Webb et al. (1991) reported that escaped farmed and wild Atlantic salmon spawn in different reaches of the river, further reducing the likelihood of hybridization. Nevertheless, escaped farmed salmon do successfully reproduce and hybridize with wild fish (Crozier, 2000; Lura and Sægrov, 1991). In a study of 16 Scottish rivers, escaped Atlantic salmon females contributed up to 7% of the fry in some rivers (Webb et al., 1993), furthermore the experimental release of farmed Atlantic salmon in a Norwegian river revealed that 55% of farm escapes contributed 19% of the genes to the next generation of adult salmon (Fleming et al., 2000). While behavioral interactions play a key role in breeding success, salmonids are external fertilizers allowing several males to simultaneously fertilize the eggs of a single female. Consequently, relative sperm performance will also be an important contributing factor to the reproductive success of farmed salmon in the wild (Gage et al., 2004). This is because subdominant males can offset behavioral inferiority through enhanced sperm traits (Birkhead and Møller, 1988; Hutchings and Myers, 1988). Farmed males could achieve higher fertilization success by having faster swimming sperm, as Gage et al. (2004) found males with higher sperm velocity had greater fertilization success even when competing male had a greater number of sperm.

In conclusion, our study shows that farmed males had greater sperm performance compared to wild males. Irrespective of condition factor, spawning stage and age, our data shows that if escaping farmed salmon males entered nearby rivers during the spawning season they would have an advantage in sperm competition with wild salmon. From an ecological perspective, the ability of farmed males to outcompete wild males can have significant impacts on natural populations, ranging from outbreeding depression and loss of genetic diversity to extirpation (Fleming et al., 2000; Hindar et al., 1991; McGinnity et al., 2003). However, despite sperm competition playing an important role in male–male interactions in salmonids, behavioral interactions are also critical for reproductive success (Fleming et al., 1996). While farmed Chinook salmon males may have greater sperm performance, it is possible that these farmed males have lost much of their behavioral ability to compete for mates and gain access to females due to domestication, and thus would not be reproductively successful in the wild. Currently, we are examining the semi-natural spawning competitions between wild and farmed Chinook salmon to test this possibility.
http://web2.uwindsor.ca/biology/pitcher/Pitcher lab/Publications_files/Lehnert et al. 2012.pdf

Just giving some things to think about and with this, I am done for the day! :)
 
Now with the above, right on Mainstreams own website they state: “Salmon have the most efficient feed conversion ratio (FCR) of all [farmed livestock]” - emphasis added. That is only propaganda and IMHO actually is pure BS. To compare any animal that eats a renewable and sustainable food to a carnivorous salmon, which eats more than it produces at any rate is NOT sustainable! Anyone farming any carnivorous fish simply needs to teach their fish to eat grass, hay, soybeans, and other grains to be sustainable!

Does anyone other than the producer really care how much grass, hay, or grain beef or chicken eat? Personally, I do not! However, I do admit it was a surprise to learn how much fishmeal and oil the pork industry used. Then I am puzzled and must ask how the math works on Mainstream’s website? They state:
“Salmon 1.2 meaning it takes 120g of feed to produce 100g of salmon”
“Salmon feed only uses 1.265 kilograms of small wild fish to grow one kilogram of salmon.”
“Our feed is approximately 16 % fishmeal and 13 % fish oil”

Can anyone explain… That doesn’t seem to add up correctly to me. They state it takes 1.265 kilograms of small wild fish to grow one kilogram of salmon. So, when I convert that 1.265 kilograms it equals 1265g, meaning it takes 1265g of wild fish to produce one gram of salmon, while they state it takes 120g of the feed to produce 100g of salmon? Then what about the other 71% of that food? Anyone wondering how much of those pellets are now ground=up “chicken feathers”? Might want to look that one up and think about things like salmonellae there?

BTW... Just for the record, I really don't mind and usually do provide references, which normally come from "peer reviewed" studies. They normally are not my opinons and when they are I usually state so! :)

The above doesn't seem like a big deal to me. In one place they say 120g to get 100g (a 1.2 conversion rate) and in another they say 1.265kg to get 1kg of salmon (a 1.265 conversion rate). While those two numbers are slightly different, I won't argue about 1.2 vs 1.265. I do think there is a reasonable point to be made (and I believe that this is what Birdsnest was trying to get at) re: the efficiency of food in to weight of salmon out is better in a net pen than in the wild. If for example, all the food that are fed to the salmon in a feed pen is derived from the ocean then it is reasonable to compare the amount of food that a net pen salmon eats to the amount that a wild salmon eats as each will result in some loss of fish in the ocean. Since the salmon in a net pen expend very little energy to get their food, they need less food to put on the same mass as a wild salmon and one could make the argument that from a food/baitfish perspective ONLY that's better overall for the ocean. Also, the argument that wild baitfish are somehow more renewable than wild baitfish ground into meal seems a bit weak to me. E.g. I don't think it's valid to argue that net pen salmon are not sustainable from a feed perspective only -especially if one focusses on mass in/mass out only and compares that to us eating a similar amount of wild salmon. From a feed perspective only, the bigger concern is that the feed source for the wild salmon comes from a much larger region and the feed waste is deposited over a much larger region than what is used in fish farms. E.g. the bait fish for salmon feed lots is collected from areas that are relatively close to civilization for economic reasons and the bait fish targeted for feed are probably a less diverse group of fish than what salmon eat naturally. So the human intervention in gathering feed for netpen salmon (relative to wild salmon) likely has other environmental impacts of which we are not aware or which are not included in the "true cost" of salmon farming.

The much stronger arguments relate to the impact of farmed salmon on wild salmon and the potential for even larger and worse impacts (and the impacts of poor wild salmon runs on the rest of the environment and other related economies - like sports fishing). Also, the impact of concentrated fish defecation under the net pens on the local environment is also an issue. I guess what I'm saying is that there are MANY, MANY reasons to get fish farms out of the wild, I just don't think that the feed-sustainability issue is one of them.
 
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To Shuswap, seadna and the others who have taken issue with Englishman's comment's towards Birdsnest as "unbecomming/unprofessional/disrespectful/etc". I have a real issue with this. Not to say that I don't respect civil and factual debate. In fact, I wish that this is the way in which our world was shaped... through reasonable discussion of facts/evidence/reasoned thinking. However, I'm sure that all of you who follow politics at any level can freely admit that this is not the case. Our world is unfortunately shaped by greed/bias/ideology/fear more so that fact/evidence/reasoned thinking. Despite the excellent work that many scientists do they have the inherent 'flaw' of being more passive/quiet/cautioned than the lobbyists, politicians, and corporations. As part of your (scientist's) job you are programmed to talk in a way that makes you seem 'soft' compared to the loud mouths that actually get sh*t done in the real world. Saying that something is 'very likely' in the world of scientist means a lot to scientists but the general public hears some lobbyist cry the opposite and say he's 100% sure and then the public doesn't know what to think (and usually goes with the loud mouth). I think in order for our world to move in the right direction we need more scientists and the like to start taking harder lines about the issue they know about and speak up and speak out for what is right. The soft voiced passive approach will not lead to the changes that we need at this point. The occasional 'below the belt' comment may be needed to start to tilt the playing field as at the moment science has been losing big time. Guys like Neil de Grasse Tyson and Richard Dawkins are a couple examples of the few scientists who have access to mainstream media and their relatively 'abrasive' attitudes are a big part of that.

As for Englishman's analogy of birdnest's view to that of a christian fundamentalist I don't see what the issue is other than some christians might not like being associated with fundamentalists... which is probably a good thing. If you define christian fundamentalist as someone who has 'blind faith' whereby no amount of evidence whatsoever will convince him, for instance, that the earth is older than 6,000 years than I don't see the comparison to someone who can't'/won't learn to understand the scientific method (peer-review in particular) as being that off-base. I know religion can be a touchy subject but the analogy is reasonable.

My 2 cents.

Great post tin can and i agree

Lorne
 
P.s amazing info in this thread....

Keep it up boys. I could not in a million years create a discussion of this magnitude on this subject. Lots of reading to do...

Lorne
 
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To Shuswap, seadna and the others who have taken issue with Englishman's comment's towards Birdsnest as "unbecomming/unprofessional/disrespectful/etc". I have a real issue with this. Not to say that I don't respect civil and factual debate. In fact, I wish that this is the way in which our world was shaped... through reasonable discussion of facts/evidence/reasoned thinking. However, I'm sure that all of you who follow politics at any level can freely admit that this is not the case. Our world is unfortunately shaped by greed/bias/ideology/fear more so that fact/evidence/reasoned thinking. Despite the excellent work that many scientists do they have the inherent 'flaw' of being more passive/quiet/cautioned than the lobbyists, politicians, and corporations. As part of your (scientist's) job you are programmed to talk in a way that makes you seem 'soft' compared to the loud mouths that actually get sh*t done in the real world. Saying that something is 'very likely' in the world of scientist means a lot to scientists but the general public hears some lobbyist cry the opposite and say he's 100% sure and then the public doesn't know what to think (and usually goes with the loud mouth). I think in order for our world to move in the right direction we need more scientists and the like to start taking harder lines about the issue they know about and speak up and speak out for what is right. The soft voiced passive approach will not lead to the changes that we need at this point. The occasional 'below the belt' comment may be needed to start to tilt the playing field as at the moment science has been losing big time. Guys like Neil de Grasse Tyson and Richard Dawkins are a couple examples of the few scientists who have access to mainstream media and their relatively 'abrasive' attitudes are a big part of that.

As for Englishman's analogy of birdnest's view to that of a christian fundamentalist I don't see what the issue is other than some christians might not like being associated with fundamentalists... which is probably a good thing. If you define christian fundamentalist as someone who has 'blind faith' whereby no amount of evidence whatsoever will convince him, for instance, that the earth is older than 6,000 years than I don't see the comparison to someone who can't'/won't learn to understand the scientific method (peer-review in particular) as being that off-base. I know religion can be a touchy subject but the analogy is reasonable.

My 2 cents.

Thanks for your support TinCan (& Lorne)!.

I guess in the minds of Seadna and Shuswap it is O.K. for Birdnest to keep making insinuations about the motivations and qualifications of Morton, and by association, her fellow authors of the paper , the peer review scientists and the entire editorial board of the National Academy of Science journal who must in his mind be part of the distorted scientific “conspiracy” !

But when, based on his posts, I call him out on his complete lack of knowledge, or any kind of qualifications, to be making judgements on scientific papers (by any author!) and point out that his “opinions” are driven by nothing more than blind “faith-like” attitudes instilled by his industry which dismisses any evidence which does not fit in with his world view, or worse, causes him to make unsubstantiated accusations against the evidence producers, then that is not O.K.

Anyway in your post, you have done a great job of understanding where I am coming from TinCan and I rest my case!!!
 
Thanks for your support TinCan (& Lorne)!.

I guess in the minds of Seadna and Shuswap it is O.K. for Birdnest to keep making insinuations about the motivations and qualifications of Morton, and by association, her fellow authors of the paper , the peer review scientists and the entire editorial board of the National Academy of Science journal who must in his mind be part of the distorted scientific “conspiracy” !

But when, based on his posts, I call him out on his complete lack of knowledge, or any kind of qualifications, to be making judgements on scientific papers (by any author!) and point out that his “opinions” are driven by nothing more than blind “faith-like” attitudes instilled by his industry which dismisses any evidence which does not fit in with his world view, or worse, causes him to make unsubstantiated accusations against the evidence producers, then that is not O.K.

Anyway in your post, you have done a great job of understanding where I am coming from TinCan and I rest my case!!!

No, in my mind that is not OK. However, as I said before, I believe he (and anyone for that matter) has the capacity to understand and change his mind and I'm damn certain that it won't be changed by challenging his intelligence or comparing him to a Christian fundamentalist. That's a far cry from disputing statements that don't have evidence behind them and a far cry from providing evidence that disputes his (or others') arguments. I'm just pointing out that I think it's counterproductive to attack the person. Attack the statements, the facts etc. But not the person. Not only did my mom tell me that I can catch more flies with honey than vinegar, she also taught me to treat others how I wish to be treated.

Also, while I feel that Tincan has a point - e.g. that louder voices often win because scientists appear timid in what they say - I'd argue that ultimately the truth and the data wins. It sometimes takes longer than I wish but ultimately, facts and data are hard to argue with. What I'm not willing to do is to overstate a case and provide ammunition that allows others to say, that's not really true or you didn't even come close to truly proving that. If that seems timid, then so be it. It's what allows me to go to sleep happy each evening.
 
<stuff clipped> Despite the excellent work that many scientists do they have the inherent 'flaw' of being more passive/quiet/cautioned than the lobbyists, politicians, and corporations. As part of your (scientist's) job you are programmed to talk in a way that makes you seem 'soft' compared to the loud mouths that actually get sh*t done in the real world.<more stuff clipped>
I see your point but there are many ways to get things done in this world and not all of them involve being a loud mouth. Ghandi comes immediately to mind but there are countless scientists who've had a bigger impact on the world than Neil de Grasse Tyson and Richard Dawkins who aren't "loud mouths" and who aren't abrasive (though I admire both of those guys).
 
The above doesn't seem like a big deal to me. In one place they say 120g to get 100g (a 1.2 conversion rate) and in another they say 1.265kg to get 1kg of salmon (a 1.265 conversion rate). While those two numbers are slightly different, I won't argue about 1.2 vs 1.265. I do think there is a reasonable point to be made (and I believe that this is what Birdsnest was trying to get at) re: the efficiency of food in to weight of salmon out is better in a net pen than in the wild. If for example, all the food that are fed to the salmon in a feed pen is derived from the ocean then it is reasonable to compare the amount of food that a net pen salmon eats to the amount that a wild salmon eats as each will result in some loss of fish in the ocean. Since the salmon in a net pen expend very little energy to get their food, they need less food to put on the same mass as a wild salmon and one could make the argument that from a food/baitfish perspective ONLY that's better overall for the ocean. Also, the argument that wild baitfish are somehow more renewable than wild baitfish ground into meal seems a bit weak to me. E.g. I don't think it's valid to argue that net pen salmon are not sustainable from a feed perspective only -especially if one focusses on mass in/mass out only and compares that to us eating a similar amount of wild salmon. From a feed perspective only, the bigger concern is that the feed source for the wild salmon comes from a much larger region and the feed waste is deposited over a much larger region than what is used in fish farms. E.g. the bait fish for salmon feed lots is collected from areas that are relatively close to civilization for economic reasons and the bait fish targeted for feed are probably a less diverse group of fish than what salmon eat naturally. So the human intervention in gathering feed for netpen salmon (relative to wild salmon) likely has other environmental impacts of which we are not aware or which are not included in the "true cost" of salmon farming.

The much stronger arguments relate to the impact of farmed salmon on wild salmon and the potential for even larger and worse impacts (and the impacts of poor wild salmon runs on the rest of the environment and other related economies - like sports fishing). Also, the impact of concentrated fish defecation under the net pens on the local environment is also an issue. I guess what I'm saying is that there are MANY, MANY reasons to get fish farms out of the wild, I just don't think that the feed-sustainability issue is one of them.

Seadna, it depends on your definition of sustainability. I quite like this one from Wikipeadia.

"Sustainability in a general sense is the capacity to support, maintain or endure. Since the 1980s human sustainability has been related to the integration of environmental, economic, and social dimensions towards global stewardship and responsible management of resources."

In this context, a feed lot industry is not sustainable because it will take, or attempt to take, as many tons of forage fish from the ocean as it needs, regardless of the ocean capacity/productivity to do so (in the sense of maintenance of the ecosystem without damage). This fact is exacerbated by the industry/economic imperative to continuously expand.

By definition, wild salmon are sustainable, at some given level of abundance, as naturally constrained by their habitats and food sources.

In addition feedlot salmon are not sustainable in the sense of “global stewardship and management of resources”, because salmon are carnivores. In the whole history of human animal husbandry over the past 10,000 plus years there has been no case of carnivores being domesticated and kept in large “herds” for use as food. It is wasteful and totally unsustainable because any culture or tribe that attempted that would quickly run out of local herbivorous food sources for its carnivorous “herds” and have to ship it in from great distances (just like the feed lots do!!). The tribe/culture is obviously better off eating the herbivores themselves and growing food locally for those herds. (Sure we get into the issue of how big the herbivore herds can get locally without shipping food in from afar but that is another debate…)

Finally feedlot salmon are not sustainable in the sense of “global stewardship and management of resources”, because getting their food involves attacking the food chain lower down with all the effects and impacts known and unknown on the ecosystem that you talk about, plus the processing and shipping of the pellets which has a significant carbon footprint.

So in summary salmon feed lots are unsustainable from a feed perspective, if your definition of sustainability is broad and inclusive enough like the Wikipedia definition.
 
OK Seadna , we'll agree to disagree on this one. Also on the following:_

No, in my mind that is not OK. However, as I said before, I believe he (and anyone for that matter) has the capacity to understand and change his mind

Not true, if the other person's view is NOT based on rational though or logic but indoctrination, dogma, and faith. Dawkins (whom you claim to admire) makes this point in his books and website and there is an interesting discussion thread on the futility of arguing some points of evolution etc. with these people on Dawkins' web site. Again they DO NOT use the rational/logic thought paradigm and therefore CANNOT be convinced.


I'm damn certain that it won't be changed by challenging his intelligence or comparing him to a Christian fundamentalist.

I did not use the word intelligence at any point. I use the words ignorant and uneducated which was not name calling but pointing out the facts illustrated very clearly by his posts. And those points he made clearly DID NOT come from the rational/logic paradigm, so I maintain my analogy stands.
 
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