Something Wicked This Way Comes - ON THE LINE

[Englishman]

This discussion is complicated by the fact there are TWO proposed pipelines. The Keystone would run North South and is the one Obama has put the brakes on for now.
The Northern Gateway project is the subject of this thread and is the one that will run right across BC and involve supertankers loading in Kitimat.
The product loaded there is definitely headed for China. There is no way they would send supertankers all the way round Cape Horn to the Gulf (can't get ships that size through the Panama canal!).
As this is a SportfishingBC forum, it is the Northern Gateway project we should be focusing on and must work together to stop. I heard on the news today the Prince Rupert town council voted to ban oil tankers from the BC coast, the third BC town to do so. The opposition is mounting in BC against Northern gateway and that is great! Getting into p***ing contests with U.S. folks about the tar sands themselves and who uses/produces the most dirty oil or other forms of pollution ain't what this is about.
Let's just ensure the damn Northern Gateway pipeline is never built across B.C.!! (Otherwise "Something Wicked This Way Comes")

 

[Gunsmith]

I don't think that we need the Gateway pipeline and it would rip through some very special areas. If we kept the oil in Canada we should be able to create lower prices, but like I say I am just a tiny cog in the system and my input would not be missed.

 

[reelfast]

You have made that clear I will try to make that happen for you. I guess then it would be usless to try to sell you an igloo made out of Canadian plastic?

yep, now a teepee, that might be another story.

i think there is mounting pressure down this way to stop the XL pipeline from alberta to the gulf. it does nothing for the US consumer and simply lines the pockets of big oil and gas interests. so some of us will step up to stop this and i belive if obama is reelected, case closed. if you folks want this pipeline to kitmat, well that is our cross to bear and all the best to you.

and islandgirl, how many miles do you walk or ride your bike???? another canadian kicking sand without an assessment of their own lives, a sorry state of affairs.

in a global economy, we are all actors and we all play critical roles no matter how we wish to pass the buck.

 

[GLG]

IslandGirl is a respected member of our group and her thoughts do count.
I may not agree but will not be disrespectful to her, neither should you.

Anyway Keystone south leg got the green light from Obama today.
Should fix some problems with local US oil that they have been having.

For what it worth I would rather keep the oil in the ground.
Kind of in the bank for future generations of Canadians.
GLG

 

[Gunsmith]

Reefast do you row your boat or is it propelled by super clean energy? When it comes to kicking sand, we found oil in ours.

 

[reelfast]

i don't have a zero carbon foot print, don't think i ever will, and i don't apologize for that.

'respected' members who **** on the boots of others, should expect to recieve the same in return.

objective discusison is a welcome thing, pointing fingers and making accusations always leads downhill.

good for you, gunsmith, hope you keep your find north of the border.

the pipeline from oklahoma down to the gulf will assist the dakota oil fields move their product to refineries. not a bad business or political move on the part of obama.

 

[Sculpin]

pointing fingers and making accusations always leads downhill.

You sir, might want to heed your own words.

 

[Gunsmith]

I do believe that you came around pissin in my cornflakes first by calling tarsands dirty when you don't know **** about it.

 

[reelfast]

I do believe that you came around pissin in my cornflakes first by calling tarsands dirty when you don't know **** about it.

i only repeated the words of the EU regarding your product, nothing more, nothing less. if you disagree with the EU, then take your talking points directly to them, no problem.

as i said sculpin, i really prefer intelligent discourse where all participants read, digest and respond with their own intelligence as opposed to comments such as the above. and to make things clear, the country i live in has many transgressions against nature, its own citizens as well as soverign nations around the globe. i make no excuses for these various government actions, i try to call them out for what they are, i won't defend them to folks north of the border or next door. i would expect any thinking citizen of any soverign nation to be able to do the same thing while engaged in intelligent and productive discourse.

i have no idea what you folks are going to be able to do regarding a pipeline to nitnat. from what i have read, the number of important waterways such construction would cross would make me very anxious. keeping your eye on the 2012 elections down this way should enable you to have some notion regarding what stance might be taken by the president and congress early in 2013. if obama regains office, there is likely to be a heavy duty battle regarding the pipeline crossing the border. if congress swings to a majority of the GOP, i believe the south pipeline will be built. it will all come down the composition of our federal government in 2013. what you can do between now and then?? all the best on this as i believe it is a wrong headed move to allow this product to be produced much less transported.

 

[Clipper]

So how come walleyes ain't jumping all over reelfast? Sounds to me that they're the perfect pair for a serious 'discussion' re the oily, tarry sands.

 

[Gunsmith]

When you repeat information good or bad that action ties you to it.

 

[Labman2]

Here's a little eye opening reading, for some of the people who think Canada/Alberta own that dirty oil!
http://www.afl.org/index.php/May-20...ions-stake-their-claims-to-our-resources.html

 

[Englishman]

this thread has nothing to do with the pipeline headed south, it has to do with the tankers and pipeline headed to our coast, anymore thoughts on that?...who is going to be at zocalo tomorrow?, unfortunately i cant make it, as much as i wish i could be there....holmes*

Right on Holmes. I said the same thing in my last post. It is the Northern Gateway project we should be looking to stop in the immediate future. Full stop.

This is a quote from that link that Labman2 posted.

"Sinopec's investment in the Northern Gateway Pipeline, however, is seen as a strategy to ship massive amounts of bitumen out of North America to Asia for upgrading, refining and finally consumption in mainland China."

BC's rivers and coasts are to be at huge risk and eventually sacrificed, so Enbridge shareholders can get rich on massive exports to China!!

 

[tincan]

A concern, related to the development of the tar sands, that I feel is not talked about enough is the dutch disease effect. Here is a good article from today that explains the potential massive harmful reverberations of our rapid development of the tar sands. The reason I think this is such an important (and overlooked) issue is that MONEY is going to ultimately play the biggest role is determining how we (Canadians) develop the sands. We can talk all day about the harmful environmental effects to our fresh water, river systems, forests, potential spills on land/at sea, CO2 emissions from developing/burning the fuel, etc, etc. but from a strict financial perspective if it can be shown that developing the tar sands in the way we are now is actually a net loss for our Canadian economy (which I think it is) we have a much better chance of stopping the proposed pipelines (northern gateway, keystone, kinder morgan expansion) and taking a step back to look at way to develop the tar sands sustainably. Make no mistake about it, the sands will be developed in some way/shape/form, and the best we can do is hope that they are developed in a way that actually benefits our national economy with as little environmental damage as possible. Personally, I'd like to see progress ground to a near halt as we are the current path is reckless from many points of view (lack of proper environmental assessments, increase foreign ownership, etc). It a gold rush mentality up there and most players involved realize that their short-term financial interests are aligned with continued rapid/uncontrolled expansion before science/economics prove this current path to be nonsensical.

The article below states Ontario's premier against the rapid development of the tar sands as he has seen of 300,000 manufacturing jobs lost between 2004-2008 alone, mostly in his province of ontario. We need to learn from the mistakes of other Dutch Disease victims and I think this argument may be our best in terms of slowly the development of the largest industrial project the world has ever seen. (quite possibly the dirtiest as well)

http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2012/02/29/Canadian-Dutch-Disease/

 

[Gunsmith]

For many years Canada has been like a hooker to the world, selling our resources for enough to subsist on. Everybody is waiting in line for a piece of the action. It would definitely be a good thing to have all of this type of business pinched off.
We should be selling the finished product but at a lesser cost to the environment. Will that happen? I do not know but I hope so for the sake of our children's children's future.

 

[tincan]

agree 100% and I think most Canadians would agree with this as well. Unfortunately, scientists and economists and yes, even environmentalists, don't speak as loudly as corporations (who have $$$$$$$ = policital influence) and the fact that we are the world's resource hooker is not general public knowledge and therefore not voted on accordingly.

For many years Canada has been like a hooker to the world, selling our resources for enough to subsist on. Everybody is waiting in line for a piece of the action. It would definitely be a good thing to have all of this type of business pinched off.
We should be selling the finished product but at a lesser cost to the environment. Will that happen? I do not know but I hope so for the sake of our children's children's future.

 

[Labman2]

Only about 1/3 of the sands are actually even in Alberta, Saskatchwan is sitting on the lions share.
The Sask. govt. is in no hurry to exploit it! There is a field in S*W* sask. that is like honey oil, it is worth more than Texas light!

The Alberta and the Federal Govt.s, for some unknown (to me) reason refuse to build the processing/refineries that would actually benifit ALL Canadians!

 

[walleyes]

Been busy for a couple days couldn't get in on it for a while.

You know guys I have to admit something,, after having sometime to sit back and analyse this whole thing and to see peoples reaction to the whole project I have to say that I have changed my mind on it. I do agree that there are definitely better places to run a pipeline than across all those hills and rivers. In the end it comes down to one thing,, if the people don't want it they don't want it plain and simple. Supposedly this country is still ran by its people and if the people have spoken then so be it. I for one would hate to see what would happen if there ever was a major break in a line under one of those big rivers or they loose a tanker in the channel,, it just wouldn't be pretty. A line to the east or south would make a lot more sense thats for sure.

Thx for the debate all though I did get a bit hot headed but oh well thats what a good debate is about sometimes no biggie..
It still leaves me wondering though about BC and what the people expect out of there government. It just seems like lately every type of project has been rejected by its people. They have all but shut down the lumber industry between the environmental groups and unions that industry is almost a bust. Hydro electricity looked like a good option for a while but no nobody wants those damn Damns. Commercial fishing is bad cause the ocean can't take that anymore. Fish farming that looked good for while but that has to be shut down cause well thats just no good. I just want to know what is it that people expect to run the place on, BC is not a cheap place to run. Again I will say it, in todays world there has to be risks taken in order to run our society. In any industry there are inherent risk to be taken. People have to ask themselves what type of life style do they want to live and what are the risks you are willing to take to have that life style ?? What lions share of the equalisation payments do people think they are entitled to ??

Just to clear up a couple things on the side. Sask does have a good section of the oil sands under it but it is deeper than what is north of Ft Mac. Believe me it is up for sale as well. It is just taking some time to get at it. That oil will be developed using the SAGD process and not open mining. It is slow coming around do to the fact there is nothing in that part of Sask as far as infrastructure goes, there are no roads and no pipelines to tie into. At this point it has all just been exploratory work. Slowly the companies are working there way in there from the AB side. And the oil will leave via lines in place on the AB side.

It has been asked why we don't keep more of the refining here in Canada,, the fact is the money to be made in refining is not that good, very poor in fact, the profit margin is very low. Especially in Canada where in any project of the magnitude to build a plant in the construction it would be Union built and then later Union run the fact remains it just makes more sense to ship the oil out refine it and ship it back very similar to what is happening to the wood in BC. Its cheaper for the companies to ship it out of the country, process it and ship it back in then to process it here,, kind of makes you wonder eh ??

 

[GLG]

Here on the coast we have been inundated with projects that promise to make a quick buck.
Most have the side effect that we have to give up a river, land, sea or air to make it work.
Some have learned that the cost is too high.
In my neck of the woods there was a copper mine that promised jobs and wealth for the community.
Turns out that the clean up and repairs of the damage was far more then any one could imagine.
The company took the money and left us with the mess to clean up.
Not going to let that happen again on my watch.

I would rather be poor and happy then rich and sad.
GLG

 

[Gunsmith]

Sometimes you are richer than you think when you are poor.