MadJigga
Well-Known Member
Where would i get clarification of this information?
Small Vessel Operator Proficiency Training Course
- Thread starter LuckyIfYouCatchOne
- Start date
Cuba Libre
Well-Known Member
Great discussion guys....Even us old farts need reminding not to get too complacent about safety. Over the years I have taken CCG marine fire training, Open water dive training, Swiftwater Rescue training ( Chilliwack River in January-- now that was COLD even with a dry suit ) . Several small boat proficiency courses, RRO course, and more-- But last summer I had to give my self a kick in the butt, as I took some family members out fishing , and part way into the trip, I realized I had broken one of my cardinal rules..... I had not gone through my check list before I headed out.... Everyone on board had a fitting life jacket-- EXCEPT me !! I left mine in the truck. And the comment about laminating instructions about radio procedure for passengers ?? Damn good point...... I have never done that. But I will now. Finally, I have to relate a discussion I had with my daughter when I retired... " Dad, you are a pretty good fisherman, now you have retired, you can become a guide and get paid to do what you love ! " " Well Daughter.. I fish because I love the time I spend on the water... If I get a fish or two, its a bonus. Everyday on the water conditions change.. a professional has to roll with the changes, and use his/her experience to deal with nature and guests that expect you to produce fish out of the air !!!! No thanks-- Thats work, even if it is enjoyably . To the pros that can produce in rotten conditions , you have my admiration. You are out trying to get a client into a fish when I have said "SCREW IT !!!! Time for nachos and beer back at the bar !!!
Try this link, MJ:
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/tp-tp14070-3582.htm
This one explains it better:
https://ravenrescue.com/faqs/what-certification-is-required-to-operate-a-small-boat-for-work
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Chasin' Dreams
Well-Known Member
As soon as you are categorized as "Near Coastal Class 2" (which you will be if you are working from (earning a living) your boat, chartering passengers on our BC coastline) then you need all the stuff I mentioned above. Doesn't matter if you are under 24'... You can see that clearly on the TC websites. If you want it in writing directed to your own name, call TC, give them all your information and tell them you will be operating a commercial vessel in "Near Coastal Class 2 Waters". If you want a faster response just call any SVOP school and ask them directly.
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/sor-2007-31/page-1.html
"near coastal voyage, Class 2 means a voyage
- (a) that is not a sheltered waters voyage; and
- (b) during which the vessel engaged on the voyage is always
- (i) within 25 nautical miles from shore in waters contiguous to Canada, the United States (except Hawaii) or Saint Pierre and Miquelon, and
- (ii) within 100 nautical miles from a place of refuge. (voyage à proximité du littoral, classe 2)"
- (i) within 25 nautical miles from shore in waters contiguous to Canada, the United States (except Hawaii) or Saint Pierre and Miquelon, and
Now if you go back to this page:
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/tp-tp14070-3582.htm
You will see in the chart that when you are operating a charter vessel carrying "passengers" (paying customers) you need the SVOP and the SDV-BS (Old MED3 course)
Then because you will be the "Master" of the vessel (Under 60 Tonne) in charge of the vessel, crew, passengers you then need to have the ROC-M and the marine first aid certificates.
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Birdsnest
Well-Known Member
What I said is true just with parameters, my apologies. I carry a copy of this on my boat because I suspect that it is very likely this if I was to get checked the person checking would not know this either for it is very deep in the regulations and very few people know about this portion of the reg. I dont necessarily support is for commercial operating.
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/tp-tp14070-3582.htm
see Table 4-1
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/tp-tp14070-3582.htm
see Table 4-1
MadJigga
Well-Known Member
Thanks. What’s the definition of sheltered wAters?
Birdsnest
Well-Known Member
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/sor-2007-31/page-1.html
sheltered waters voyage means a voyage
sheltered waters voyage means a voyage
- (a) that is in Canada on a lake, or a river above tidal waters, where a vessel can never be further than one nautical mile from the closest shore;
- (b) that is on the waters listed in column 1 of an item of Schedule 1 during the period specified in column 2 of that item; or
- (c) that is made by a ferry between two or more points listed in column 1 of an item of Schedule 2 during the period specified in column 2 of that item. (voyage en eaux abritées)
Chasin' Dreams
Well-Known Member
Sheltered waters has nothing to do with being on our coast line in the ocean... and operating in "Near Coastal Class 2 Waters"
What you posted there has nothing to do with fishing our salt water coast line. If you carry that on your boat and try to tell DFO, TC, WorkSafeBC etc anything like that you will be given the information I have given above in my posts...
What you posted there has nothing to do with fishing our salt water coast line. If you carry that on your boat and try to tell DFO, TC, WorkSafeBC etc anything like that you will be given the information I have given above in my posts...
Birdsnest
Well-Known Member
Just get an SVOP.
But despite totally hijacking the thread if you go down this list to BC you can see where the salt chuck is included .
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/sor-2007-31/page-3.html#docCont
MadJigga
Well-Known Member
I’m going to. I’ll be transiting my construction crew from Sidney to small gulf islands. In my 20’ boat. The client will be paying for the service. I think it’s pretty cut and dry
Birdsnest
Well-Known Member
I just can't see where it lists anything about paying customers. It only states "passengers". I am curious where the distinction between paying customers and passengers is listed?
Chasin' Dreams
Well-Known Member
It's in the TC act, regulations, definitions etc..
I've taken all the courses and we went over it lots during the course. If you are a commercial vessel (earning a living from your vessel-you are the master) there is a very clear distinction between "guests" and "passengers" and the TC laws/regs that go with them.
Also doesn't matter if an employee, crew member other than the master is piloting the vessel, if it's a working vessel then it's a "commercial vessel" and is governed under those laws by TC and WorkSafeBC. Doesn't matter if a "passenger" literally "paid" a fee or not, if the vessel is running as a commercial vessel then they are "passengers" not "guests".
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/debs-small-vessels-faq-general-502.htm
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/tp-tp14070-3578.htm
Birdsnest
Well-Known Member
Than
Ok thanks I got this from that which is clear.
"How do I determine if I'm carrying passengers or guests?
The basic consideration when deciding which category a vessel should fit is whether the person(s) carried on board are passengers or not.
The situation is clearer where the vessel owner also operates it and there is no form of charter party in existence. In this situation, you have to examine the relationship between the owner and the people on board. If any of them are paying money for their carriage on the vessel, then they will be deemed to be passengers and the vessel will come within Transport Canada’s regime. If the owner is receiving any form of remuneration for the use of the vessel, even if not directly from the persons carried, then they will be passengers. If the persons are guests, there is no form of remuneration and the vessel is being used exclusively for pleasure they will not be passengers and the vessel will be under pleasure craft regime. This would include the situation where an owner invites some friends for a trip on his pleasure craft. If the sole purpose of the trip is pleasure and there is no commercial element or intent then they will not be passengers."
So where does it clearly state that if you are commercialy operating with passengers which would be paying customers or employees of a construction crew going to a job, you are automatically under the prevision of "near coastal class 2"?
Ok thanks I got this from that which is clear.
"How do I determine if I'm carrying passengers or guests?
The basic consideration when deciding which category a vessel should fit is whether the person(s) carried on board are passengers or not.
The situation is clearer where the vessel owner also operates it and there is no form of charter party in existence. In this situation, you have to examine the relationship between the owner and the people on board. If any of them are paying money for their carriage on the vessel, then they will be deemed to be passengers and the vessel will come within Transport Canada’s regime. If the owner is receiving any form of remuneration for the use of the vessel, even if not directly from the persons carried, then they will be passengers. If the persons are guests, there is no form of remuneration and the vessel is being used exclusively for pleasure they will not be passengers and the vessel will be under pleasure craft regime. This would include the situation where an owner invites some friends for a trip on his pleasure craft. If the sole purpose of the trip is pleasure and there is no commercial element or intent then they will not be passengers."
So where does it clearly state that if you are commercialy operating with passengers which would be paying customers or employees of a construction crew going to a job, you are automatically under the prevision of "near coastal class 2"?
Chasin' Dreams
Well-Known Member
The OP originally started this thread asking about the courses because he was thinking about either guiding from his boat or someone else's. Chartering around our coast is in the category "Near Coastal Class 2" It's a geographical definition which then dictates the regulations you fall under.
If you have a very specific small geological location that falls into "sheltered waters" category and your not gonna be more than one NM from any shore that you want to charter in then giver a go at telling TC/WSBC/CCG that and see what they say about your requirements...
MadJigga
Well-Known Member
In my case, I’ll be charging my customer a fee for the boat and per passenger. Say $300 a day. I know guys that do this without a SVOP. I’d prefer to have my bases covered as I plan on doing this a lot. If I’m boarded and checked or if something were to go wrong and Worksafe or my liability insurance was involved I want to have dotted my I’s and crossed my T’s. Better safe than sorry kinda thing. It’s been my experience that when I push my luck it pushes back.
searun
Well-Known Member
I would just say this...why wouldn't you want an SVOP training and certification even if you aren't operating outside the 1 NM from sheltered waters? This should be more about doing the right thing to prepare yourself for trouble. Taking the easy route out sometimes leaves you and your passengers unprepared for trouble...who needs that.
Another bit of advice...every commercial operator must be providing proper safety briefings demonstrating all the safety equipment, lifejackets etc before heading out....failure to do so will result in a Charge laid against you - especially in situations where there has been an incident. Gloves come off. Just ask the guy who was captain on the boat that sank off Tofino while on a halibut charter...he was convicted of several charges.
Another bit of advice...every commercial operator must be providing proper safety briefings demonstrating all the safety equipment, lifejackets etc before heading out....failure to do so will result in a Charge laid against you - especially in situations where there has been an incident. Gloves come off. Just ask the guy who was captain on the boat that sank off Tofino while on a halibut charter...he was convicted of several charges.
Chasin' Dreams
Well-Known Member
I agree with you. Much better to have your I's dotted and T's crossed. And yes insurance comes into play big time. Make sure it's written into your policy.
Birdsnest
Well-Known Member
Think i got it now but I do find it very interesting that you can operate a commercial vessel with a pleasure ticket in specified salt water areas( quite a few) with a boat with 6 or less passengers which is under 8 meters but its pretty limiting.
Also the SVOP course IMO is like learning to fly a plane with out actually flying the plane. That needs to change because passing the burden to owners isn't working.
And there is pretty much Zero enforcement which is pathetic.
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Chasin' Dreams
Well-Known Member
Yes exactly. The courses give a lot of excellent info. And yes the safety briefing is written in the law as well. And like you say if something goes wrong they will investigate and question all of the passengers. You should have a check list to go through every time you go out. I mentioned it in another thread not long ago about how most of my passengers have had no idea how to use a VHF, call signs etc and also most have no clue about cold water exposure/survival etc. Going through these things fresh before a trip can really help them with knowledge and also make them feel like you care about their safety.
MadJigga
Well-Known Member
Yup. I’ll be spending a bit of time making sure any and all concerns are addressed and covered before I move forward. Currently I’m using a water taxi service but would prefer more control over departure times etc. And would like to duck out early some days and fish!!
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