I don’t think that was anyone’s intention here. A few questions were asked and expectations/ suggestions were brought up. I am an SFI member myself and put in a lot of volunteer hours to support our local hatcheries. Let’s not get too defensive. It’s in the tough times that we need the support of each other. Part of that support is criticizing the status quo and finding a new path forward.
SFI Up date
- Thread starter Derby
- Start date
SpringVelocity
Crew Member
There is long history with some of the comments by Wolf in particular so that is why people are getting defensive. The told you so just gets old. That is why Derby asked that question because people are getting tired of it frankly. Lose the negativity then people might respond for a change. We spend useless time just squabbling amongst each other. How can we ever band together as a group and fight this? That is what you guys harp you want?
wolf
Well-Known Member
Because I speak the truth and been in this before you were even around Spring and you know that I base things of facts not lies that DFO is telling us. I have asked 2 simple questoins and not being mean at all...
1st one was how much data is enough (apparently we know not enough to close just about all of the island) and 2nd whats there plan sorry if I have offended you
SpringVelocity
Crew Member
Yes but DFO Ottawa is the problem. You said it yourself right there. That is known. Why make it about all the organizations? Anyway definitely can't ever change the bubble your stuck in. I did try though!
fishin solo
Crew Member
wolf
Well-Known Member
Again ALL i asked was 2 simple questions..????Not in any bubble at all am I happy with no way in hell as it has hurt and destroyed alot of lives of my friends and family. this has effected many of us . i am moving forward but im still going to ask I as still love fishing and thats what this is about. hence the question lets not make this about me and attack each other personaly (jarrod) . for once ok they were the ones coming to alot of people pledging give us money so we can fight for your rights . im jut asking as they some who have paid have asked me .. im just relaying info... see how easy that is ..its called communication
fishinforever
Well-Known Member
I just signed up and paid, I’m with wolf what’s our plan. I’ve seen his comments too but he’s also a guy who’s had to start a new line of work due to the restrictions in his area and it doesn’t seem like it’s getting better.
the butcher
Well-Known Member
Our strategy can't be about fishing. No one cares that we can't fish. We need someone to have a contact or an in with a TV reporter for the news or some media l reporter. We need to sling mud into the faces of DFO and the politicians who support the DFO decisions. We need to challenge their announcement to show that it has nothing to do with saving stocks of concern. What does targeting a sector that has less than a 1% impact on Chinook populations really do to save the Chinook salmon. We need to show the public that there are many other options that will make a significant and immediate impact on Chinook populations and increase their survival rates, eg, illegal gillnetting, Seal and sea lion culls, habitat restoration etc... Yet point out that none of these measures have been addressed or taken by DFO. Get a reporter to point a microphone and a camera into a senior DFO officials face including the useless minister and make them look like fools on camera. I used to work in the Healthcare field and there are countless examples of issues with our Healthcare system.... Overcrowded hospitals, poor maintenance to the point where some room needed a bucket to catch rain water that leaked from the ceiling during a heavy rainfall, temp ER beds in linen closets etc.... Nothing ever happens to remedy these major issues... But when global news broadcasts a story of the horrid conditions doctors and nurses and patients have to deal with on the 6 o'clock news, the next evening anither story is broadcasted announcing some funding that magically just came out of nowhere to address the deficiencies. When egg is on a public officlas face, they respond quickly to wipe it off. No one in government wants to be seen as incompetent.
scott craven
Well-Known Member
You won't get support from the general public (except fishermen)
They buy their fish from the market.
Starving seals,whales,sea lions all take priority in the eyes of the public.
They buy their fish from the market.
Starving seals,whales,sea lions all take priority in the eyes of the public.
Is the SFI/SFAB refuting DFO's claim that 12 of the 13 Fraser River Chinook stocks are endangered?
Is there agreement between SFI/SFAB &DFO that the SFI/SFAB proposal would be of minimal impact to the endangered stocks?
Do DFO & SFI/SFAB agree on the definition of minimal impact?
Do DFO & SFI/SFAB agree on the percentages of Sport fishing caused total mortality of the FR stocks?
Is SFI/SFAB aware of the language in the 2019 Pacific Salmon Treaty regarding ISBM of "At Risk Stocks", and MSF's?
WA has been dealing with the same issues for well over 20 years; all off our restrictions are based on well-known & "agreed-to" data.
If you are going to refuse to accept the data just because you don't believe it because it's not what you don't wanna hear, no progress will be made.
That is reality
Is there agreement between SFI/SFAB &DFO that the SFI/SFAB proposal would be of minimal impact to the endangered stocks?
Do DFO & SFI/SFAB agree on the definition of minimal impact?
Do DFO & SFI/SFAB agree on the percentages of Sport fishing caused total mortality of the FR stocks?
Is SFI/SFAB aware of the language in the 2019 Pacific Salmon Treaty regarding ISBM of "At Risk Stocks", and MSF's?
WA has been dealing with the same issues for well over 20 years; all off our restrictions are based on well-known & "agreed-to" data.
If you are going to refuse to accept the data just because you don't believe it because it's not what you don't wanna hear, no progress will be made.
That is reality
Don't get me wrong - I am after the same thing about every other forum member is after - I wanna bonk more fish As SOON AS POSSIBLE. The disagreement is when as soon as possible is. Perhaps soon as possible is when there are more fish. If so, then decide what leads to more fish and what does not, and support what leads to more fish and change "hearts & minds" on what does not lead to more fish.
Some thoughts:
C&R & the SFAB/SFI proposal do not
Control Seal/Sea Lion populations do
Hatcheries do
Monitoring/enforcing FN fisheries do
Having FN Fisheries subject to the same conservation principles as non-FN Fisheries (no non-selective fisheries when "at risk stocks are intermingled") do
Personally I would start with Public Awareness campaigns versus protests - we NEED broad public support
Some thoughts:
C&R & the SFAB/SFI proposal do not
Control Seal/Sea Lion populations do
Hatcheries do
Monitoring/enforcing FN fisheries do
Having FN Fisheries subject to the same conservation principles as non-FN Fisheries (no non-selective fisheries when "at risk stocks are intermingled") do
Personally I would start with Public Awareness campaigns versus protests - we NEED broad public support
wildmanyeah
Crew Member
DFO stock assessment people put together the SFAB proposal in conjunction with SFAB members.
So you could say DFO Ottawa chose to ignore DFO Pacific own science.
These are for the areas identified in the proposal to have near zero Fraser stocks of concerns in them.
You could say some of the new restrictions are justified if you want to keep the ER on Fraser’s summer 5.2 to 5% and give all the ER on that stock to First Nations.
The restrictions in August around the Fraser 4.1 the one stock that is not endanger does not make any sense. Although DFO has decided that FN on the Fraser need all of them. That amounted to about 25k last year.
You may not like CR but if there is going to be an 80cm slot for chinook why not also allow retention of anysize hatchery fish. Your not adding anymore pressure guys will be out there anyways looking for a fish for the slot.
So you could say DFO Ottawa chose to ignore DFO Pacific own science.
These are for the areas identified in the proposal to have near zero Fraser stocks of concerns in them.
You could say some of the new restrictions are justified if you want to keep the ER on Fraser’s summer 5.2 to 5% and give all the ER on that stock to First Nations.
The restrictions in August around the Fraser 4.1 the one stock that is not endanger does not make any sense. Although DFO has decided that FN on the Fraser need all of them. That amounted to about 25k last year.
You may not like CR but if there is going to be an 80cm slot for chinook why not also allow retention of anysize hatchery fish. Your not adding anymore pressure guys will be out there anyways looking for a fish for the slot.
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ziggy
Well-Known Member
I think it’s true that you have to recognize a problem before you try and solve it but I also think in many cases that it’s not the problem that’s being criticized but the solution. A solution which is often more about politics and the path of least resistance than it is about the right path. The optics of appearing to do something to a disengaged electorate that is bombarded by partial truths from ENGO’s. South of the border you may not recognize it but up here the ENGO industry employs a lot of folks and is constantly looking for a fundraising platform. Unfortunately DFO is unable or unwilling to resist or counter their media hype.
A couple of prime examples that quickly come to mind are whale sanctuaries and hatcheries. We have whale sanctuaries while our neighbours to the south don’t! I’m sure we use the same data, but arrived at different conclusions! Hatcheries ramped up to the Ranching level by our neighbours to the north and used extensively by our neighbours to the south, but using the same data our government seems opposed to them and as well they oppose clipping hatchery fish, even as the claim to open fishing to them ( go figure).
The government constantly claims to consult the Public fishers, but on the odd occasion when it does happen, tends to ignore the advice of the handful of committed volunteers it solicits for the info. I remember a great quote attributed to the frustrated First Nations when dealing with DFO. “Taking notes at a meeting is not consultation”. Sadly I think we’re in the same boat.
A couple of prime examples that quickly come to mind are whale sanctuaries and hatcheries. We have whale sanctuaries while our neighbours to the south don’t! I’m sure we use the same data, but arrived at different conclusions! Hatcheries ramped up to the Ranching level by our neighbours to the north and used extensively by our neighbours to the south, but using the same data our government seems opposed to them and as well they oppose clipping hatchery fish, even as the claim to open fishing to them ( go figure).
The government constantly claims to consult the Public fishers, but on the odd occasion when it does happen, tends to ignore the advice of the handful of committed volunteers it solicits for the info. I remember a great quote attributed to the frustrated First Nations when dealing with DFO. “Taking notes at a meeting is not consultation”. Sadly I think we’re in the same boat.
Whole in the Water
Well-Known Member
Yes that is PART of the reality we are in that care about the public fishery. There is also another reality. The reality of posting on forums about how screwed we are and that everyone's against us, no one supports us and nothing can be done about it and it is hopeless and be default we should just give up and accept it. This reality only comes about IF we let it happen. Time to move past the shock, dismay and grief and move forward!
Can anyone tell me what is the use of complaining about how hopeless things are for the public fishery? Will it improve anything??? Time to grow up and put our big person pants on!
We need solutions, ideas, energy, focus, commitment, courage, optimism to move forward! I realize that everyone has an opinion and can express it on this forum - but seriously what a waste of time and space to complain about how hopeless things are. We all get it - so why keep repeating it to just sow discouragement??? This is why DFO, the Fed Govt. ENGO's, FN's and others love to **** all over us shut us down as we do little but complain and then give up.
Time to wake up and face the challenges of the public fishery by working together to fight for the future of out public fishery!!! Bottom line we are either part of the problem or be part of the solution. So what do we/you want to be?
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the butcher
Well-Known Member
The problem is not about the complaints. The problem is not enough of our fellow salt and freshwater angler comrades are pissed of enough to get upset. That's the root cause of concerns here. If enough of us gave a damn and were fed up with constantly being over a stump, we'd have a stronger voice, more support, more funding and volunteers to work on new activities and strategies that work towards achieving our common goals.
If you ever talk to am experience marriage counselor and ask him what's a good sign that there is a decent probability that a certain couple has a chance of making things work? He would ask you a few questions in return.
-does the couple fight and are those fights intense involving screaming, yelling and the use of profanity?
-do they fight and argue often?
-does it take each of them some time to calm down and forgive each other?
If the answers to the questions above are yes, then the they have a "fighting" and decent chance they can sort out their marriage issues.
If the answer to the above questions is no, then they don't have a chance in hell of working it out. They have already moved on and the decision in their minds have already been made nothing that is said between the 2 of them no matter how hurtful has any impact on the other.
Complaining and bitching is a normal and natural reaction. But I agree it needs to have actions to make any impact. Unfortunately the sad reality is we need more fellow anglers to be a part of this fight and solution. We will not be successful if only a small portion of the angling community fight for the rest.
If you ever talk to am experience marriage counselor and ask him what's a good sign that there is a decent probability that a certain couple has a chance of making things work? He would ask you a few questions in return.
-does the couple fight and are those fights intense involving screaming, yelling and the use of profanity?
-do they fight and argue often?
-does it take each of them some time to calm down and forgive each other?
If the answers to the questions above are yes, then the they have a "fighting" and decent chance they can sort out their marriage issues.
If the answer to the above questions is no, then they don't have a chance in hell of working it out. They have already moved on and the decision in their minds have already been made nothing that is said between the 2 of them no matter how hurtful has any impact on the other.
Complaining and bitching is a normal and natural reaction. But I agree it needs to have actions to make any impact. Unfortunately the sad reality is we need more fellow anglers to be a part of this fight and solution. We will not be successful if only a small portion of the angling community fight for the rest.
Aces
Well-Known Member
You guys that are trying to do your best to represent us take way too much abuse, especially when you're volunteers.
Thank you for your efforts dealing with an entity with a not so hidden agenda
Please give me a definition of "near zero" - not picking on you WMY, as I have heard the "near zero" phrase used often on this site. Also, did they ignore the data, disagree with the data, or agree with the data but did not agree with the solution? Certainly important to know for deciding next steps.
My limited understanding is that this is "Law of the land"; priorities are conservation, FN, sport, commercial in that order.
Same down here. I see them for what they are; pay check is first priority. They, like everybody else are not right all the time nor are they wrong all the time. They probably do a good job of representing a very high percentage of the population.
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wildmanyeah
Crew Member
This data was all available in this thread linked in the SFAB proposal.
Take area 28 for example the proposed areas were in green. Were talking about 3 CWT fish in the last 40 years all but one prior to the year 2000.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ylfdkrtp...preview=SFAB-CWT-data+for+proposal+Apr8p.xlsx
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