Good post Bones. As I posted earlier - every site/year is a new box of chocolates. The ocean is a very dynamic place. That doesn't mean we don't have the tools to understand these interactions - we just need to get a new regulator to regulate the industry - and another completely different one to do the investigation - as Justice Cohen pointed-out....
Sea Lice and Fish Farms
- Thread starter fogged in
- Start date
The term borrowed from terrestrial ecologists is the term "mast years" - from the fact that trees have copious seed/cone years only in some years. It is a common phenomenon to see once in a while - a large recruitment event in groundfish stocks - like rockfish - when in other years the recruitment is miminal. Since the ocean is very dynamic at different scales - these events (upwelling/downwelling, El Niño/La Niña, PDO, estuarine effects, river discharge/hydrograph, etc) sometimes work synergistically - sometimes antagonistically.
Finger-pointing - yes. Doesn't mean it is wrong, nor based on inexperience. Ya - it does have credibility, imho.
and yes - to your question on ISAv and PRv wrt Pacific salmon stocks:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Molly JT Kibenge, Tokinori Iwamoto, Yingwei Wang, Alexandra Morton, Richard Routledge, and Frederick SB Kibenge. 2016. Discovery of variant infectious salmon anaemia virus (ISAV) of European genotype in British Columbia, Canada. Virology Journal (2016) 13:3
p.5: “ISAV sequences detected in British Columbia fish include both ISAV-HPRΔ and ISAV-HPR0 and are of European genotype”.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Molly JT Kibenge, Tokinori Iwamoto, Yingwei Wang, Alexandra Morton, Marcos G Godoy, and Frederick SB Kibenge. 2013. Whole-genome analysis of piscine reovirus (PRV) shows PRV represents a new genus in family Reoviridae and its genome segment S1 sequences group it into two separate sub-genotypes. Virology Journal 2013, 10:230
p.10: “Chilean PRV strains had 100% amino acid sequence identity with the Norwegian strain Reovirus sp. Salmo/GP-2010/NOR, whereas the Canadian strains had ≤92.7% amino acid sequence identity with this [Norwegian] PRV strain…”
p.11: “Our analysis using BEAST simulation [32] shows the time when Canadian PRV isolates diverged from Norwegian PRV isolates was between 2006 and 2011”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Molly JT Kibenge, Tokinori Iwamoto, Yingwei Wang, Alexandra Morton, Richard Routledge, and Frederick SB Kibenge. 2016. Discovery of variant infectious salmon anaemia virus (ISAV) of European genotype in British Columbia, Canada. Virology Journal (2016) 13:3
p.5: “ISAV sequences detected in British Columbia fish include both ISAV-HPRΔ and ISAV-HPR0 and are of European genotype”.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Molly JT Kibenge, Tokinori Iwamoto, Yingwei Wang, Alexandra Morton, Marcos G Godoy, and Frederick SB Kibenge. 2013. Whole-genome analysis of piscine reovirus (PRV) shows PRV represents a new genus in family Reoviridae and its genome segment S1 sequences group it into two separate sub-genotypes. Virology Journal 2013, 10:230
p.10: “Chilean PRV strains had 100% amino acid sequence identity with the Norwegian strain Reovirus sp. Salmo/GP-2010/NOR, whereas the Canadian strains had ≤92.7% amino acid sequence identity with this [Norwegian] PRV strain…”
p.11: “Our analysis using BEAST simulation [32] shows the time when Canadian PRV isolates diverged from Norwegian PRV isolates was between 2006 and 2011”
Last edited:
B.C. salmon fishery's decade of decline
The Globe and Mail
Published Friday, Dec. 25, 2009 9:55PM EST
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/bc-salmon-fisherys-decade-of-decline/article4187755/
http://labs.eeb.utoronto.ca/krkosek/Publications_files/AM_NAJFM_2008.pdf
http://faculty.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/faculty/gdmarty/2010PNAS-Marty-etalSeaLicePaper.pdf
http://johnreynolds.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/price-et-al-2011-plos-one.pdf
http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.0060033&type=printable
http://kintama.com/applications/fraser-river-sockeye-survival/
http://kintama.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Welch-et-al-2009-Cultus-sockeye.pdf
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/Library/278452.pdf
http://www.farmedanddangerous.org/scientific-case/sea-lice-research/
http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/...4/09/fewer-salmon-farms-more-wild-salmon.html
Last edited:
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
B.C. salmon fishery's decade of decline
The Globe and Mail
Published Friday, Dec. 25, 2009 9:55PM EST
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/bc-salmon-fisherys-decade-of-decline/article4187755/
http://labs.eeb.utoronto.ca/krkosek/Publications_files/AM_NAJFM_2008.pdf
http://faculty.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/faculty/gdmarty/2010PNAS-Marty-etalSeaLicePaper.pdf
http://johnreynolds.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/price-et-al-2011-plos-one.pdf
http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.0060033&type=printable
http://kintama.com/applications/fraser-river-sockeye-survival/
http://kintama.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Welch-et-al-2009-Cultus-sockeye.pdf
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/Library/278452.pdf
http://www.farmedanddangerous.org/scientific-case/sea-lice-research/
http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/...4/09/fewer-salmon-farms-more-wild-salmon.html
So I'll try again. Where in these reports are the out migrating fry counts proving a healthy populations of fry even left the streams?
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
Escapements as in brood migrating to go spawn or actual fry leaving estuary. I need help please. Just looking for the proof of out migrating healthy fry? If I missed that part in the reports please point me too it. ty.
No probs, Fishmyster. Thanks for indicating where you are having trouble. Glad to help:
"Escapement" is the "estimate" of what adult salmon escape past all capture fisheries and enter their natal streams - and are counted using some method. The most common and cost-effective are visual counting methods - streamwalks, swim floats, and aerial surveys can be used - or sometimes electronic counting is used in a few systems. There is a really lengthy and detailed thread on this at: http://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum/index.php?threads/dfo-estimates-are-terrible-so-sad.64573/
The graphs you see above in post #84 are constructed using adult sockeye escapement data from the Fraser. Keep in mind the life-cycle of the salmon - and the time sequences of the cohorts - typically a 4 year return delay between egg deposition, fry, smolts and returning adults.
As few adult fences that there are remaining - there are even less juvenile counting fences. The best we can do is use escapement data and the life history cycle of the salmon.
1 other point that needs illustration - it's up to any industry to prove they are not having an effect - not us - the other way around. You can ask the fish farming industry if they fund any smolt fences near the Broughtons.
"Escapement" is the "estimate" of what adult salmon escape past all capture fisheries and enter their natal streams - and are counted using some method. The most common and cost-effective are visual counting methods - streamwalks, swim floats, and aerial surveys can be used - or sometimes electronic counting is used in a few systems. There is a really lengthy and detailed thread on this at: http://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum/index.php?threads/dfo-estimates-are-terrible-so-sad.64573/
The graphs you see above in post #84 are constructed using adult sockeye escapement data from the Fraser. Keep in mind the life-cycle of the salmon - and the time sequences of the cohorts - typically a 4 year return delay between egg deposition, fry, smolts and returning adults.
As few adult fences that there are remaining - there are even less juvenile counting fences. The best we can do is use escapement data and the life history cycle of the salmon.
1 other point that needs illustration - it's up to any industry to prove they are not having an effect - not us - the other way around. You can ask the fish farming industry if they fund any smolt fences near the Broughtons.
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
Adult escapement data is by no means proof that healthy fry have left the rivers. Don't for get I have witnessed total acidification of all our coastal rivers over the last thirty years. I also know very well the life cycle of salmon.
So without any side track mumbo jumbo politician talk or more links to reports please show me proof that there was healthy fry leaving our estuaries. Where is all this fry fence data?
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
Forgot to mention. Keogh river fence. check out that one. let me know what you think about the fry counts there.
From: http://kintama.com/applications/fraser-river-sockeye-survival/
Forgot to point this out: "Our findings allow a partitioning of overall mortality into the first month of life in the ocean and that occurring afterwards, and are of particular importance because they demonstrate that the majority of the mortality occurred after smolts passed through the Discovery Passage/Broughton Archipelago region. "
Forgot to point this out: "Our findings allow a partitioning of overall mortality into the first month of life in the ocean and that occurring afterwards, and are of particular importance because they demonstrate that the majority of the mortality occurred after smolts passed through the Discovery Passage/Broughton Archipelago region. "
and you neglected to add this:
"This sparks the debate of whether the poor marine survival was caused by fish farm related issues, or if other factors such as poor ocean conditions were responsible, or if there was perhaps a combination of impacts. At this time we have no answers, but we have solutions that could bring such answers.
In 2010, Kintama collaborated with the University of British Columbia on a Pacific Salmon Foundation funded project charged with providing preliminary information about Cultus Lake salmon migration and survival. These data have still to be published. However, it appears that there are 2 regions of high mortality, one shortly after leaving Lake Chilko, and the other between the Northern Strait of Georgia and Queen Charlotte Strait."
aa, you are the master googler ... has this been published?
"This sparks the debate of whether the poor marine survival was caused by fish farm related issues, or if other factors such as poor ocean conditions were responsible, or if there was perhaps a combination of impacts. At this time we have no answers, but we have solutions that could bring such answers.
In 2010, Kintama collaborated with the University of British Columbia on a Pacific Salmon Foundation funded project charged with providing preliminary information about Cultus Lake salmon migration and survival. These data have still to be published. However, it appears that there are 2 regions of high mortality, one shortly after leaving Lake Chilko, and the other between the Northern Strait of Georgia and Queen Charlotte Strait."
aa, you are the master googler ... has this been published?
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
So if fry are released into a poor stream, estuary and ocean situation where there is no food they would run out of energy where on their migration?
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
Wonder how hard it is for starved fry to swim thru the turbulent waters of QCS?
Haha. I know a few of the researchers on the "Lake Chilko" study and was told the implanted smolts were severely compromised and basically became Bull Trout food. The Kintama study, then, used very large surgically implanted tags and really not much was expected from this early research; but it was and is ground breaking. I am told the tags now used, if indeed funding is still available for this, are much less invasive, but still require the fish be anesthetized, opened and then sutured, with recovery and downstream migration being shall we say ... suspect.
Again, you are this forums main man when it comes to facts and I am only going on anecdotal and personal communications.
Again, you are making this personal with your sarcastic tone directed at another member. Keep it on track, or yet another Conservation thread will disappear and sanctions will be placed against you.
Brian
Thanks Brian for keeping it civil. Appreciate the support.
I think - for the benefit of Fishmyster - and some of the other readership that might not deal constantly in these issues - I would like to offer a bit of an overview:
The numbers of returning adult salmon passing through the Broughtons and QCS would be in the tens to hundreds of millions looking at typical escapement numbers of not just the Fraser - but all the other streams emptying in between VI and the mainland. Each spawning female would release some 1500-6000 eggs dependent upon size and species. So - the numbers of outmigrating juvies swimming through QCS and through the Broughtons would be in the hundreds to thousands of billions. Lots and lots.
That's what makes open net-pen fish farms situated there particularly problematic wrt mitigating wild/cultured stock interactions. It's one of the worst place to situate them.
Trying to accurately enumerate all these juvies would be challenging and extremely expensive - to say the least. That's why we resort to using escapement data - and looking for trends in the survivors from that years cohorts of juvies that returned ~4 yrs later. To those unfamiliar w escapement data and how fisheries are managed - it may indeed sound like "mumbo jumbo". I encourage them to get informed - if they truly wish to understand this stuff.
It could be done - but some obvious caveats to utilizing any such data - and expense, as well.
DFO does perform "high seas" juvie trawls (headed by Marc Trudel) - but keep in mind that they can't get at any juvies until they get offshore from their nearshore habitats. Some weeks to months have transpired by then - and since stress like changing salinities and smolting brings-on a weakening of the immune system - many latent diseases (e.g. ISAv, PRv, etc.) often cause mortality in those 1st few weeks - and sea lice likewise affect juvies the most when they first outmigrate and are small - those 1st few weeks of ocean residence are critical in understanding what is potentially going-on with the health of these juvies. And DFO - due to the size and depth of the ship/trawl combo - misses this critical period.
It's called "survivor bias" and it is something that DFO should well understand. There is utility to doing these trawls - but not for following juvies through the most critical period of early marine residence imho.
Another thing that some industry pundits have used as a "nothing to see here folks - walk away" response - is to look at a factor called "fish condition factor" generated by looking at metrics from the trawl-caught juvie data as their rationale that the juvies must be ok. Some even suggested that (I am not making this stuff up!) sea lice made juvies grow faster and bigger after analysing results from fish condition factor analysis (remember the survivor bias?).
Fish condition factor analyses is a math trick. Basically it is assumed that in order to calculate the volume of a box - you multiply length x width x height - and then you compare that to the weight of the box. Heavier boxes will have a higher "fish condition factor".
As appropriate as that might be for boxes - it is truly a ****** metric for juvies (e.g. different genetics and sizes for different stocks/runs) - and even shittier considering survivor bias. Since they can only sample the fish that DID NOT DIE on their way to the trawl net - the ones that did die of whatever cause and were potentially emaciated (and had more lice loading) were NOT caught in the trawl net. So the trawl caught fish had higher fish condition factors even though they may still have a lesser load of older lice (and people on the trawl never saw what the loading was on the earlier juvies). So therefore - abracadabra - lice make juvies grow bigger and larger. Like I said - I'm not making this stuff up. Wonderful stuff - what a PR firm can pump-out.
The only real way to test for "health" is to look at blood chemistry for stress products (e.g. blood cortisol, etc.), and/or use Kristi Miller's new genomics methods - and targeting the early entrant juvies near fish farms. They are in the middle of doing this with the PSF. Hasn't been done before to my knowledge. You can make your own assumptions as to "why" it wasn't done before.
I think - for the benefit of Fishmyster - and some of the other readership that might not deal constantly in these issues - I would like to offer a bit of an overview:
The numbers of returning adult salmon passing through the Broughtons and QCS would be in the tens to hundreds of millions looking at typical escapement numbers of not just the Fraser - but all the other streams emptying in between VI and the mainland. Each spawning female would release some 1500-6000 eggs dependent upon size and species. So - the numbers of outmigrating juvies swimming through QCS and through the Broughtons would be in the hundreds to thousands of billions. Lots and lots.
That's what makes open net-pen fish farms situated there particularly problematic wrt mitigating wild/cultured stock interactions. It's one of the worst place to situate them.
Trying to accurately enumerate all these juvies would be challenging and extremely expensive - to say the least. That's why we resort to using escapement data - and looking for trends in the survivors from that years cohorts of juvies that returned ~4 yrs later. To those unfamiliar w escapement data and how fisheries are managed - it may indeed sound like "mumbo jumbo". I encourage them to get informed - if they truly wish to understand this stuff.
It could be done - but some obvious caveats to utilizing any such data - and expense, as well.
DFO does perform "high seas" juvie trawls (headed by Marc Trudel) - but keep in mind that they can't get at any juvies until they get offshore from their nearshore habitats. Some weeks to months have transpired by then - and since stress like changing salinities and smolting brings-on a weakening of the immune system - many latent diseases (e.g. ISAv, PRv, etc.) often cause mortality in those 1st few weeks - and sea lice likewise affect juvies the most when they first outmigrate and are small - those 1st few weeks of ocean residence are critical in understanding what is potentially going-on with the health of these juvies. And DFO - due to the size and depth of the ship/trawl combo - misses this critical period.
It's called "survivor bias" and it is something that DFO should well understand. There is utility to doing these trawls - but not for following juvies through the most critical period of early marine residence imho.
Another thing that some industry pundits have used as a "nothing to see here folks - walk away" response - is to look at a factor called "fish condition factor" generated by looking at metrics from the trawl-caught juvie data as their rationale that the juvies must be ok. Some even suggested that (I am not making this stuff up!) sea lice made juvies grow faster and bigger after analysing results from fish condition factor analysis (remember the survivor bias?).
Fish condition factor analyses is a math trick. Basically it is assumed that in order to calculate the volume of a box - you multiply length x width x height - and then you compare that to the weight of the box. Heavier boxes will have a higher "fish condition factor".
As appropriate as that might be for boxes - it is truly a ****** metric for juvies (e.g. different genetics and sizes for different stocks/runs) - and even shittier considering survivor bias. Since they can only sample the fish that DID NOT DIE on their way to the trawl net - the ones that did die of whatever cause and were potentially emaciated (and had more lice loading) were NOT caught in the trawl net. So the trawl caught fish had higher fish condition factors even though they may still have a lesser load of older lice (and people on the trawl never saw what the loading was on the earlier juvies). So therefore - abracadabra - lice make juvies grow bigger and larger. Like I said - I'm not making this stuff up. Wonderful stuff - what a PR firm can pump-out.
The only real way to test for "health" is to look at blood chemistry for stress products (e.g. blood cortisol, etc.), and/or use Kristi Miller's new genomics methods - and targeting the early entrant juvies near fish farms. They are in the middle of doing this with the PSF. Hasn't been done before to my knowledge. You can make your own assumptions as to "why" it wasn't done before.
Last edited:
Clint r
Well-Known Member
The Canadian Press - Jan 6 6:13 am
As traditional commercial fishing is threatening fish populations worldwide, U.S. officials are working on a plan to expand fish farming into federal waters around the Pacific Ocean.
The government sees the move toward aquaculture as a promising solution to overfishing and feeding a hungry planet. But some environmentalists say the industrial-scale farms could do more harm than good to overall fish stocks and ocean health.
The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration is creating a plan to manage commercial fish farms in federal waters, the area of ocean from three to 200 miles offshore, around Hawaii and other Pacific islands.
The program is similar to one recently implemented by NOAA in the Gulf of Mexico. The farms in the Gulf and the Pacific would be the only aquaculture operations in U.S. federal waters, though there are smaller operations in state waters close to shore.
Fish farming has been practiced for centuries in Hawaii and around the world. But modern aquaculture, some environmentalists say, carries pollution risks and the potential for non-native farmed fish to escape and enter the natural ecosystem.
Most shellfish consumed in America comes from farms, and their methods are widely considered sustainable. However, some farms that grow carnivorous fish such as salmon have raised concerns about sustainability because they use wild-caught fish to feed the captive species.
There are three ways to farm fish: fully contained land-based systems that pump water in and out with little, if any, environmental impact; near-shore operations incorporating natural and man-made elements; and off-shore farms.
Former NOAA chief scientist and founder of ocean advocacy group Mission Blue Sylvia Earle said there are more environmentally sustainable and economically viable options than open-ocean aquaculture, which uses huge floating net-pens or submerged cages. "We have to make a choice with aquaculture," she said. "Is our goal to feed a large number of people? Or is our goal to create or to serve a luxury market?"
Last year, NOAA and the Scripps Institution of Oceanography put an economic value of $17 billion a year on the ocean off the west coasts of North and South America. That includes $4.3 billion from commercial and sport fishing and $12.9 billion for the capture of carbon.
As traditional commercial fishing is threatening fish populations worldwide, U.S. officials are working on a plan to expand fish farming into federal waters around the Pacific Ocean.
The government sees the move toward aquaculture as a promising solution to overfishing and feeding a hungry planet. But some environmentalists say the industrial-scale farms could do more harm than good to overall fish stocks and ocean health.
The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration is creating a plan to manage commercial fish farms in federal waters, the area of ocean from three to 200 miles offshore, around Hawaii and other Pacific islands.
The program is similar to one recently implemented by NOAA in the Gulf of Mexico. The farms in the Gulf and the Pacific would be the only aquaculture operations in U.S. federal waters, though there are smaller operations in state waters close to shore.
Fish farming has been practiced for centuries in Hawaii and around the world. But modern aquaculture, some environmentalists say, carries pollution risks and the potential for non-native farmed fish to escape and enter the natural ecosystem.
Most shellfish consumed in America comes from farms, and their methods are widely considered sustainable. However, some farms that grow carnivorous fish such as salmon have raised concerns about sustainability because they use wild-caught fish to feed the captive species.
There are three ways to farm fish: fully contained land-based systems that pump water in and out with little, if any, environmental impact; near-shore operations incorporating natural and man-made elements; and off-shore farms.
Former NOAA chief scientist and founder of ocean advocacy group Mission Blue Sylvia Earle said there are more environmentally sustainable and economically viable options than open-ocean aquaculture, which uses huge floating net-pens or submerged cages. "We have to make a choice with aquaculture," she said. "Is our goal to feed a large number of people? Or is our goal to create or to serve a luxury market?"
Last year, NOAA and the Scripps Institution of Oceanography put an economic value of $17 billion a year on the ocean off the west coasts of North and South America. That includes $4.3 billion from commercial and sport fishing and $12.9 billion for the capture of carbon.
fogged in
Well-Known Member
[QUOTE
There are three ways to farm fish: fully contained land-based systems that pump water in and out with little, if any, environmental impact; near-shore operations incorporating natural and man-made elements; and off-shore farms.
Former NOAA chief scientist and founder of ocean advocacy group Mission Blue Sylvia Earle said there are more environmentally sustainable and economically viable options than open-ocean aquaculture, which uses huge floating net-pens or submerged cages. "We have to make a choice with aquaculture," she said. "Is our goal to feed a large number of people? Or is our goal to create or to serve a luxury market?"
Last year, NOAA and the Scripps Institution of Oceanography put an economic value of $17 billion a year on the ocean off the west coasts of North and South America. That includes $4.3 billion from commercial and sport fishing and $12.9 billion for the capture of carbon.[/QUOTE]
Stated in the interesting post from Clint.... "Is our goal to feed a large number of people? Or is our goal to create or to serve a luxury market?" Interesting article for sure...
How many think the current price of Farmed Atlantic Salmon is serving the "large number of people" or " a luxury market"?
There are three ways to farm fish: fully contained land-based systems that pump water in and out with little, if any, environmental impact; near-shore operations incorporating natural and man-made elements; and off-shore farms.
Former NOAA chief scientist and founder of ocean advocacy group Mission Blue Sylvia Earle said there are more environmentally sustainable and economically viable options than open-ocean aquaculture, which uses huge floating net-pens or submerged cages. "We have to make a choice with aquaculture," she said. "Is our goal to feed a large number of people? Or is our goal to create or to serve a luxury market?"
Last year, NOAA and the Scripps Institution of Oceanography put an economic value of $17 billion a year on the ocean off the west coasts of North and South America. That includes $4.3 billion from commercial and sport fishing and $12.9 billion for the capture of carbon.[/QUOTE]
Stated in the interesting post from Clint.... "Is our goal to feed a large number of people? Or is our goal to create or to serve a luxury market?" Interesting article for sure...
How many think the current price of Farmed Atlantic Salmon is serving the "large number of people" or " a luxury market"?
Similar threads
