Radar

cedarman

Member
Hey all I am buying a Furuno 1623 radar for my 24' striper and it does not come with a tower mount. This will be my first radar unit and I am unsure if I should be buying the extra tower mount or if it matters since the boat is quite high already. There are many options of tower mounts, so any height recomendations? Also this unit claims 16 mile range, does anyone have it and have any feedback for the unit.

Cheers

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Any radar is limited by the earths curvature. The higher up it is the farther out it can see. There is a formula for height=distance. On smaller boats the distance is considerably less than you might think. A good reason not to go overboard and buy a long distance unit, you simply can't use all of it. I would get it up as high as possible without creating trailering grief or giving you or your crew sunburn from its scanning. :)
 
when i use my radar, im zoomed in between 1 and .25 of a mile, otherwise its very hard to judge whats right around you and the relative distances. The further you zoom out, the less is shown.
 
Personally,
I would get at least a 5-10" mount, and forget about it! That will compensate for the attitude of your boat coming up on plane and while running? It is kind of nice to know when you have one of those ‘Canadian Princess’ 50 foot boats coming at you running 25-30 knots?

Profisher and nedarb2 are right. The only time I ever go beyond 4-6 miles is when I am looking for land or large ships? Usually just for information, and that is not very often. In the fog, I usually run mine as nedarb2 and have my safety zone set at less than mile. If your range is set any higher, you will probably "miss" any small boats that are close to you (in the “sea clutter).

There is “no” way I would buy that unit on ‘usedvictoria’ for that price! Not sure, but that appears to be a very old unit? It has knobs! I would stick with the Furuno 1623 2.2 kw Radar, over that one! http://www.thegpsstore.com/Furuno-1623-22-kw-Radar-P125C0.aspx You might consider this one, it might be a lot more bang for your buck, as you aren't paying for the "Furano" name? GARMIN GMR 18 4kW, 18" Radar Scanner? http://cgi.ebay.com/GARMIN-GMR-18-R...ZViewItemQQptZGPS_Devices?hash=item5636c28c43

You can see how mine is mounted and I have had no problems, even when running slow coming up on plane. It is about 5" mount and I am very bow high coming up on plane!

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I just ran across this article:
quote: "Radar energy, like the energy emitted from the VHF transceiver, travels in a generally straight line. Horizontally directed radar energy is soon well above the curved surface of the earth and can illuminate only those objects tall enough to protrude above the radar horizon. For example, for a radar mounted at a height of 22 feet above the water, an object must be more than 1200 feet high to be seen at a distance of 48 miles. (Mounting the radar at the top of a 100 foot mast won't help much, the shortest object visible at 48 miles will still have to be at least 880 feet high). Regardless of the size of the vessel or the maximum range or power of marine radar it is most often used to scan for targets not more than about 6 miles distant and will frequently be operated at ranges of less than 2 miles. Choosing a radar on the basis of maximum range is not a good idea. The typical magnetron equipped marine radar cannot detect and display targets that are less than about 200 feet from the antenna. (The receiver is necessarily "blind" to signal reflections from close-in targets because it must be desensitized in the immediate aftermath of the emission of the energy pulse from the magnetron transmitter. A CW radar can visualize targets within a few feet of the antenna)."

"The radar antenna, transmitter and receiver are usually packaged as a single unit, enclosed in either a radome or in a housing with a rotating, bar-like antenna mounted on its top surface. The smallest radome housed units are less than 12 inches in diameter and weigh less than 10 pounds, making them practical for installation on even quite small boats. The antenna should be mounted at a height that places it at least two feet above and four to five feet from the head of anyone on board and in a position where crew members will usually be at least five feet from the antenna. Mounting the antenna more than about 22 feet above the water will not make a worthwhile contribution to maximum range operation and can degrade the radar's ability to show important close-in targets. An radar mounting pole that places the radar about eight feet above the deck works well. "
The whole article is here: http://www.boatus.com/husick/nd_radar.asp
 
When running like the guys said 1 or 3 NM is okay depending on traffic and your speed, just scan out to 3/6 NM to see if you pick any boats up. Remember 2 Boats going 20 Knots will have a closing time of 1.5 min. per NM so it doesn't leave a lot of time to react, Use your EBL to help you tell if he is on a collision course. I have the same Radar but with no cables you can have for $225.00 I am sure someone has them available. Distance on the water is 1.17 times the square root of your height of eye. So like standing on deck at say 9ft you see about 3.5 NM.
 
I too was concerned with how high a pedestal I should go for. I eventually opted to go with a starboard shim flush mounted on my hardtop. Plenty high enough. Just watch out for any obstructions ie. sattelite antennas for Serius, GPS etc. The Radar will fry these components. I deck mounted those items and all is fine. The hard top you have on your Striper is higher that most rigs out there. You'll be fine. And you'll save the $200.00 they want for a mast.

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Hope it helps

HL
 
Concerning the closing rate and horizon, there is another important half of that quote and equation:
quote:“You have the same height of eye of 9 feet so your distance to the horizon is still 3.51 nautical miles. You're approaching a port that has a lighthouse that is shown on your chart to have a height of 81 feet. Using the same formula you would find that 1.17 times the square root of 81 (1.17 * 9) = 10.53 nautical miles (the lighthouse can be seen 10.53 nautical miles over the horizon).

By adding the two together: 3.51 + 10.53 = 14.04 nautical miles, you should be able to see the lighthouse when you are 14.04 nautical miles away.”

Depending on how thick the fog is, I very seldom run 20 knots for that reason, mostly I am less than 15! If your unit is properly aligned, it will pick up logs and kayakers. But think about this… setting 6 feet above the water gives you 2.34 nm site. Now take the log or kayaker a foot (or less), add the “possible” .386 (or less) = 2.726nm line of site max. Now 20 knots “well under” 3 minutes to “impact”… Not much time to react!

All in all, when a radar system is purchased “new” it will have installation instructions to follow. If you purchase one “used” and can’t get an installation and owners manual, just remember it needs to be properly aligned, “The scanner unit should normally be mounted as high as practical above the waterline, for three reasons:
• For safety reasons the scanner should be out of range of personnel, preferably above head height. This avoids mechanical danger and “electromagnetic” contact, particularly with the “eyes”.
• Radar operates at the line-of-sight, so a high mounting position gives better long range performance.
• Surrounding large objects, in the same horizontal plane, can interfere with the radar signal and cause blind areas or shadow sectors and false targets on the radar screen (see below).”

If you mount it to high the scanner may be affected by pitch and roll, and create a shadow sector underneath the scanner’s beam. And make sure your drain tube on the back is not blocked!
RaymarineRadarScanner_Page_1.jpg

PS, personally I would get a 5" Forward Leaning Radar Mount but, if you shim as described you should be fine! Think about the square root of 5" x 1.17! :D
Just remember, regardless of how your radar is mounted it is important to consider many factors in order to optimize the performance by properly mounting:

•Correct attitude underway
•Maximum target range
•Ability to identify close targets
•Minimize blind spots
 
Highlights, just curious how your radar reads your all around pole light on the hardtop and anything else sitting above the dome on your hard top? Do you pull down the rods, net, light etc. when its on or do they not influence the scan, that is, they don't cause interference?

Matador
 
Scans right through those items. You don't have to worry about any interference. What the radar will do though is fry anything that is electronically sensitive. So....... all other items were placed elsewhere on the deck of the boat.
 
quote:Originally posted by highlights

Scans right through those items. You don't have to worry about any interference.
I might have to disagree or maybe just clarify a tad bit based on the basic principles of radar? And, this is more for those that don’t understand what Radar really is and how it works, as I am quite sure 'highlights' has very little interference! :)

Radar is an object detection system that uses Radio waves of electromagnetic radiation with wavelengths in the electromagnetic spectrum longer than infrared light. The radar beam normally is assumed to spread 20 degrees above and below the scanning unit. The scanner should be at least three feet (or more) from magnetic compass and any other equipment transmitting radio signals, e.g. VHF radios. Any other close antennas should not be on the same plane or “inside” the radar beam. Why? It is transmitting electromagnetic wavelengths, otherwise known as “microwaves”, so can a radar signal “fry” another component? Yes, as apparently ‘highlights’ found out the hard way. However, you also need to keep in mind - IT CAN ALSO “FRY YOU”!

The radar scanner shoots out a signal it bounces off an object and returns to the antenna. The stronger the return signal the stronger the image will show on the radar screen. Radar signals will bounce off any type of reflective metal! Wood and fiberglass both will absorb some of the signal, but both will provide a return - just weaker than steel or aluminum. How else can you pick up those logs and kayakers floating in the water?

Interference is something that interferes with these radio waves, which is anything, including ‘dohboy’ standing on the bow, with something in his pockets! Interference shows as all that little clutter (little stuff) on your screen showing around your boat, especially when zoomed all the way in. Not to be confused with “sea clutter”. I personally have never been on or seen a pleasure boat without some type of interference!

Also, when looking at your screen the interference or clutter does not move! Targets do! There are controls on radar display units (that I seldom use) labeled or called “interference”, “Noise”, “Clutter” Suppressor/Rejector etc, depending on the manufacturer. When those controls are used, you are in effect changing your screen to “hide” those interferences – not eliminating them. When that is done, you are also subject to hide anything that would otherwise normally show up as a moving target… e.g. that small log or kayaker! Your screen might look clear and pretty, free of clutter and interference - but by using those filters, what are you really doing “hiding” them to include that small “moving” target?

You need to look closely at the top of my boat! You will see I have my VHF, Sirius, GPS, and TV antennas. They are mostly within 3 feet of my radar scanner, but none are on the same plane or inside the radar beam. In addition, there is my light, external VHF speaker, and normally 3 or 4 collapsed crap pots. My radar doesn’t interfere with any of the equipment. Does the equipment interfere with the radar? I assure you – each one inside that 20 degree beam does! The only question is… how much?

I believe every installation manual you read will state something to the effect that the radar scanners should be placed where there is a good all-around view with no part of the ship’s “superstructure” or “rigging” intercepting or interfering with the scanning beam. “Any obstruction” will cause some type of shadow and blind sectors. Again, the only question is… how much?


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WOW...thanks for all the info guys. To say I am a little confused would be putting it lightly. Seems like I need to go back to school and improve my math skills before I buy a radar unit. Well knowledge is power and you guys are helping tons.

Cheers.

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Good post Charlie. I always research before I do anything. I was fortunate to have a couple really good marine electricians at my disposal that suggested those other electronic items would get "fried" if in the signal path of the dome. So , no painful lesson there. On that note, I have not been without my share over the years. LOL


Hey , one thing I have noticed when in very big seas is the waves coming up on the screen as clutter. Obviously I can't free up the sensitivity enough without dramatically sacrificing all other information on the screen. Any recommendations?
 
Hey Cedarman,

You and I have the same boat and the same radar. I bought mine with the radar already installed on the mast and I have very few (if any) problems with it. I would recommend the mast. Your overall height on the trailer will be about 11'8" if I remember correctly. (depending on the type of trailer)I will try to add a photo to this thread when I am back at my home computer (where the photos are)

BTW, The furuno 1623 is a great unit. Only complaint is it can be a real battery hog if you don't have your charger running (but this is no dirfferent with any other radar).
 
Battery hog , yes.

Mast......... personal preferance I guess. I wouldn't bother.

Either way you won't go wrong.

Nice rig!!

Guess I'm partial :D
 
I have a Furuno 1623 radar and like it alot.

I had my own radar mount made for me.I went to the Metal Supermarket out on Keating Cross Road and bought aluminum pipe and plate and had a welder (guy behind Capital Iron) make my radar stand for about $150 total cost. It is a pretty simple thing to make. A 12" angled pipe with two, 10 " square plates welded top and bottom. I also angled the top plate down about 5 degrees to allow for bow rise when underway.

Long live wild salmon!!!
 
Cedarman, I'd also visit the Striper Owners Club (www.seastriper.com) in the Electronics section and do a search or ask (lots of conversations there on radar mounting on a Striper). I've got a 2600 and mounted my Raymarine to the hardtop (mine is a pilothouse style so mount will be slightly different). Basic recommendation there is to mount the unit on a radar mount to get it well above your head. I used a 12" Seaview mount. I have it tilted considerably forward -- probably about 15-20 degrees (basically it's level when the boat is on plane as I figured that is when I wanted to be able to see the furthest).

Assuming that your radar is about 8-9' off the water (at best), you are really only going to be able to see other boats at a maximum of 5 miles on your best day so I wouldn't be overly concerned about 12 mile vs 16 mile vs 24 mile radar because a sport boat can't really take advantage of it.



TenMile
<'((((><
 
quote:Originally posted by cedarman

WOW...thanks for all the info guys. To say I am a little confused would be putting it lightly. Seems like I need to go back to school and improve my math skills before I buy a radar unit. Well knowledge is power and you guys are helping tons.

Cheers.
Okay, how about this for simplicity? Buy it… keep all this in mind if you are installing it yourself (or have it installed), go out on a clear day and become familiar with its use! Play with all the buttons you want, when it is clear blue and 22! Worst-case scenario, hit restore “factory default settings” and don’t play with any buttons, except zoom in and out, while running in fog, until you know what their function is! Once you do that, it will all come together! And, I would still put on a 5” mount?
quote:Originally posted by highlights

Good post Charlie. I always research before I do anything. I was fortunate to have a couple really good marine electricians at my disposal that suggested those other electronic items would get "fried" if in the signal path of the dome. So , no painful lesson there. On that note, I have not been without my share over the years. LOL

Hey , one thing I have noticed when in very big seas is the waves coming up on the screen as clutter. Obviously I can't free up the sensitivity enough without dramatically sacrificing all other information on the screen. Any recommendations?
Thanks, I always research, also.
On, the “that note” comment over the years? I have found the thing that has cost me the most money (and fortunately no personal injury)… is me! The largest cost was actually a little over $27,000 and the funny thing… I was following the wake of another and I had no radar and no visibility. Yep, things happen, fast!

Concerning the “sea clutter”, unfortunetly… my only answer, is “learn to live with it”, if anyone else knows of something there… I too would love to know!
 
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