GLG
Well-Known Member
Maybe it has to do with the private hatchery. As you were the one that brought that up would you care to elaborate?
Oh I don't need to google acid rain as I'm up on the subject.
Port Alberni Sockeye Fishery Shut Down For All
- Thread starter IronNoggin
- Start date
Maybe it has to do with the private hatchery. As you were the one that brought that up would you care to elaborate?
Oh I don't need to google acid rain as I'm up on the subject.
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
If you are up on how acid rain effects streams then why would you ask me for links explaining how geology like limestone deposits protect some streams?
I mention the private hatchery because they are professionals who have to produce or go out of business unlike SEP hatcheries. They also test and monitor their water quality unlike SEP.
At least you are starting to see that there could be a problem with the fw. Yes it could be the private hatchery polluting the Stamp river in some way but because there is many more streams with the same effect of sterile water like Gold, Campbell and Nimpkish without Ff hatcheries it is unlikely the issue. I also do not have a preprogrammed bias towards ffs like many others do so have the ability to seek deeper scientific reasoning for depressed populations than solicited ideas.
I consider this progress with you anyways. Thanks
GLG
Well-Known Member
So you consider that the private hatchey may be related to the difference between the two sockeye runs. You seem to have access to the results of their water testing so just who is this private hatchery and how did you get this data?
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Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
Lol!!! I see where you are going with this.
Well before discussing my interaction with the private hatchery first a bit about how the relationship started. It was in 2015 when there was an algae species change across V.I. I had witness a total die off of insect, fish and other stuff i would realize after. Never has there been a good explanation from guys who were dfo or moe biologists. It was always the same old “ocean survival is down”, “water chemistry is another departments responsibility” “ there are still gaps in knowledge” routine. I was knocking on doors to find truth in what has happened to all the bugs and fish in freshwater that i had witnessed. Everyone who was a employed by govt. including epa had nothing to learn from. After much effort and coming up blank I decided to learn water chemistry, testing water and how it effects ecology for my self. After knocking on many more doors again, like at Robertson creek, I realized that nobody knew anything and most everyone was more interested in hockey or Facebook than ecology collapse. It had crossed my mind that the private ff hatchery could be polluting the stream so I eventually knocked on their door.
My relationship with the private hatchery is all but an hour of chat with one of their fish technicians at the front office in two years. One half hour chat is in 2015 and another in 2016. I learned more about fish culture in that short time from that guy than from any other person from dfo, moe, epa or any other university degree biologist ever. I never knew the guy but ironically he looked very Scandinavian so I will refer to him as Sven. When I first met Sven I had introduced myself ant told him I was veteran local steelhead guide who was looking for scientific answers to what I had seen in the local streams. He was kind enough to spend the time to share what he had to offer. He had absolutely no input, information or acknowledgment that or why all the insects had died. He never knew of anything of such algae species change in the natural setting. All he knew was closed containment fish culture at that site. That is some of the important information he shared with me. I asked if they used gcl water and he’s said yes. When I questioned about the chemistry he said the only thing they had to do was raise the alkalinity to 23ppm so the nitrifying bacteria could function correctly convert the unused food and fish waist from ammonia to nitrate. He said ever pond is monitored buy computer for nitrate, ammonia, pH, temperature...... and alarms go off to warn of any parameter breach. I was just at Robertson creek hatchery an hour before talking to the manager there about water quality and he said they don’t test the water for anything but temperature. After chatting with Sven I was impressed with the care and attention professional fish cultists gave to there product and learned just how lame govt. hatcheries practices were. Big thing I learned there was that gcl water did not have correct nitrification process happening and that is why the dead salmon did not decompose. I have witnessed this effect in many other streams this to most is not a big deal but our salmon population collapse indicate it is. It was not unique to the stamp river because of the private hatchery. Other than that there is my big relationship with that place. They are a f@&k of a lot more professional than any government approved facility I can assure you that.
So how about those graphs?? Kind of interested how the productivity variable is so different from the Stamp to Sproat systems! Just like the Gold river summer run productivity I comparison to the winter run productivity. Just maybe there is something in the water!!
Well before discussing my interaction with the private hatchery first a bit about how the relationship started. It was in 2015 when there was an algae species change across V.I. I had witness a total die off of insect, fish and other stuff i would realize after. Never has there been a good explanation from guys who were dfo or moe biologists. It was always the same old “ocean survival is down”, “water chemistry is another departments responsibility” “ there are still gaps in knowledge” routine. I was knocking on doors to find truth in what has happened to all the bugs and fish in freshwater that i had witnessed. Everyone who was a employed by govt. including epa had nothing to learn from. After much effort and coming up blank I decided to learn water chemistry, testing water and how it effects ecology for my self. After knocking on many more doors again, like at Robertson creek, I realized that nobody knew anything and most everyone was more interested in hockey or Facebook than ecology collapse. It had crossed my mind that the private ff hatchery could be polluting the stream so I eventually knocked on their door.
My relationship with the private hatchery is all but an hour of chat with one of their fish technicians at the front office in two years. One half hour chat is in 2015 and another in 2016. I learned more about fish culture in that short time from that guy than from any other person from dfo, moe, epa or any other university degree biologist ever. I never knew the guy but ironically he looked very Scandinavian so I will refer to him as Sven. When I first met Sven I had introduced myself ant told him I was veteran local steelhead guide who was looking for scientific answers to what I had seen in the local streams. He was kind enough to spend the time to share what he had to offer. He had absolutely no input, information or acknowledgment that or why all the insects had died. He never knew of anything of such algae species change in the natural setting. All he knew was closed containment fish culture at that site. That is some of the important information he shared with me. I asked if they used gcl water and he’s said yes. When I questioned about the chemistry he said the only thing they had to do was raise the alkalinity to 23ppm so the nitrifying bacteria could function correctly convert the unused food and fish waist from ammonia to nitrate. He said ever pond is monitored buy computer for nitrate, ammonia, pH, temperature...... and alarms go off to warn of any parameter breach. I was just at Robertson creek hatchery an hour before talking to the manager there about water quality and he said they don’t test the water for anything but temperature. After chatting with Sven I was impressed with the care and attention professional fish cultists gave to there product and learned just how lame govt. hatcheries practices were. Big thing I learned there was that gcl water did not have correct nitrification process happening and that is why the dead salmon did not decompose. I have witnessed this effect in many other streams this to most is not a big deal but our salmon population collapse indicate it is. It was not unique to the stamp river because of the private hatchery. Other than that there is my big relationship with that place. They are a f@&k of a lot more professional than any government approved facility I can assure you that.
So how about those graphs?? Kind of interested how the productivity variable is so different from the Stamp to Sproat systems! Just like the Gold river summer run productivity I comparison to the winter run productivity. Just maybe there is something in the water!!
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
GLG
Well-Known Member
Tell you what I'll just leave this alone. I hope you get the recognition you deserve from the science community. Clearly there are many professions that monitor the environment here in BC that can learn a thing or two, from you, about a thing or two.
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/environment/air-land-water/water/water-quality
and of course from post # 14
Average weight of the returning sockeye has declined from the normal five to seven pounds to between four and 4.5, he noted. “Obviously they’re not getting enough to eat.”
It must be acid rain somewhere for the last 3 years out in the ocean for those sockeye /Sarc off.
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/environment/air-land-water/water/water-quality
and of course from post # 14
Average weight of the returning sockeye has declined from the normal five to seven pounds to between four and 4.5, he noted. “Obviously they’re not getting enough to eat.”
It must be acid rain somewhere for the last 3 years out in the ocean for those sockeye /Sarc off.
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Reel Time
Well-Known Member
My 2 cents and 2 biggest thoughts on most harmful impacts of returns
1)
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...ts-g7-to-name-and-shame-countries-conducting/
2)
https://www.langleyadvancetimes.com...nd-open-in-langley-fisheries-department-says/
1)
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...ts-g7-to-name-and-shame-countries-conducting/
2)
https://www.langleyadvancetimes.com...nd-open-in-langley-fisheries-department-says/
wildmanyeah
Crew Member
It’s funny small fish used to mean a big run size and big avg size fish used to mean a small run size.
Now it’s small run size and small returns.
Yet the recent expedition in the winter did not find any signs of that fish are not finding enough to eat.
Now it’s small run size and small returns.
Yet the recent expedition in the winter did not find any signs of that fish are not finding enough to eat.
Different people have different theories about what they believe. The world is flat. Elvis and sasquatch are hanging-out together. Climate change is some wonderfully organized hoax. The stock market is the reason we have awareness and life. Everyone is welcome to their own “opinion” (verses the available science) – that doesn’t necessarily mean that their theory is correct and supported.
Due to complex and far-reaching life cycles – everyone has theories about fish – some theories are well supported by data – some are not. Ocean/marine survival issues are well documented and supported by many years of data over large geographic areas and through many studies, researchers, and science.
Just living near a waterbody does not necessarily give a person the data crucial to understand the complex interactions and potential impacts to fish populations. All salmon species also spend significant time in the ocean – and some species only briefly use freshwater for spawning. Generating data at different scales and specifically to fill-in gaps in that understanding of complex interactions and potential impacts is where that understanding is developed.
I don’t think anybody has suggested that water quality (fresh and salt) is unimportant to fish. That “quality” however – has numerous and complex interacting variables including DO, pH, nutrients, plankton, upwelling, turn-over, etc. – the list is long.
The changes in marine survival, however – has affected all species at some points in time from many watersheds – more so in the past 20 years or so.
In the case comparing juvenile survival between GCL and Sproat – both have likely been affected by reductions of survival in the marine environment - as numerous posters have pointed-out It also appears that in addition to those marine survival reductions – GCL has additional issues within the lake catchment basin verses Sproat.
Everyone has their pet theories here, as well.
Maybe logging around the lake has caused increases in drought/floods which are crushing eggs and fry in the gravels. Maybe there isn’t enough plankton production in GCL verses Sproat – so they have initiated a nutrient seeding program in GCL (which is strange to me that someone who supposedly knew the lake never mentioned this). Maybe Sven’s wife believes that an IHN outbreak caused this lowered survival in the lake. Maybe it is a combination of all the above, and other not-yet researched issues.
In any event – these potential additional issues do not mean that ocean survival is not an issue.
Even wrt science – there are ways to objectively test how much and how well the data matches and supports a theory(eg. power analysis, multivariate stats, etc) Talking to a guy named Sven that you desperately wish to believe - or releasing a couple of fish does not generate the type of data to take someone’s pet theory seriously.
W/o data – that’s what non-scientific beliefs are – pet theories.
I’ll believe the available science thanks – and maybe change my mind as the data comes in - rather than adopt any one particular pet theory.
Due to complex and far-reaching life cycles – everyone has theories about fish – some theories are well supported by data – some are not. Ocean/marine survival issues are well documented and supported by many years of data over large geographic areas and through many studies, researchers, and science.
Just living near a waterbody does not necessarily give a person the data crucial to understand the complex interactions and potential impacts to fish populations. All salmon species also spend significant time in the ocean – and some species only briefly use freshwater for spawning. Generating data at different scales and specifically to fill-in gaps in that understanding of complex interactions and potential impacts is where that understanding is developed.
I don’t think anybody has suggested that water quality (fresh and salt) is unimportant to fish. That “quality” however – has numerous and complex interacting variables including DO, pH, nutrients, plankton, upwelling, turn-over, etc. – the list is long.
The changes in marine survival, however – has affected all species at some points in time from many watersheds – more so in the past 20 years or so.
In the case comparing juvenile survival between GCL and Sproat – both have likely been affected by reductions of survival in the marine environment - as numerous posters have pointed-out It also appears that in addition to those marine survival reductions – GCL has additional issues within the lake catchment basin verses Sproat.
Everyone has their pet theories here, as well.
Maybe logging around the lake has caused increases in drought/floods which are crushing eggs and fry in the gravels. Maybe there isn’t enough plankton production in GCL verses Sproat – so they have initiated a nutrient seeding program in GCL (which is strange to me that someone who supposedly knew the lake never mentioned this). Maybe Sven’s wife believes that an IHN outbreak caused this lowered survival in the lake. Maybe it is a combination of all the above, and other not-yet researched issues.
In any event – these potential additional issues do not mean that ocean survival is not an issue.
Even wrt science – there are ways to objectively test how much and how well the data matches and supports a theory(eg. power analysis, multivariate stats, etc) Talking to a guy named Sven that you desperately wish to believe - or releasing a couple of fish does not generate the type of data to take someone’s pet theory seriously.
W/o data – that’s what non-scientific beliefs are – pet theories.
I’ll believe the available science thanks – and maybe change my mind as the data comes in - rather than adopt any one particular pet theory.
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So, I'd be interested in seeing the data that they have on Somass juvenile sockeye for this year class WMY. Or are you just assuming that is what they found?
“A precipitous decline is obvious, and the issue here is marine survival,” Beamish said.
https://hashilthsa.com/news/2019-03-15/gulf-alaska-expedition-attempts-solve-mystery-salmon-decline
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wildmanyeah
Crew Member
I was talking in the general sense of the theory that marine survival is low everywhere because salmon are starving. That the expedition in the gulf of Alaska this winter not finding that.
Not with respect to this particular year class of fish or stock.
I have not looked into this particular stocks. If they have out migrating smolt numbers for each system ect. If they have historical marine survival rates for each stock... how they compare to historical ect... bla bla blah... if they have enhanced spawning channels... the list goes on
These two stocks while geographically close may reare in completely different parts of the ocean. Who knows I haven’t looked into that and they may not even have that data.
I just saw tho for east Vancouver island coho their returns last year are above their 10 year avg so all is not gloom and doom in the fish world.
I have my own pet theories that what we are
Seeing is cyclical trends that are not well understood. Like in the 80 when coho numbers were strong and chinook numbers were depressed perhaps we are going into something like that.
One thing the math does show tho is a small change in ocean or fresh water survival means a hudge different when it’s time to enumerate spawners.
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IronNoggin
Well-Known Member
Years upon years (decades) of genetic manipulation often carries the same result.
When you target HARD with in-river gillnet fisheries, you select against the larger fish getting through, and instead favor those of smaller sizes that literally swim through the mesh size of the nets. Rinse and repeat with enough effort and over a good length of time, it should not be overly surprising to anyone the size decreases.
GCL has another issue not yet touched upon here. That of dewatering. Something which has occurred fairly recently, and was instrumental in destroying a huge number of the redds (was dropped after the spawn). That cannot help but have an impact.
I put a fair amount of stock into what Ken is saying as well. Makes a lot of sense to me from a scientific point of view.
There are likely other parameters involved alright, but suggesting "ocean survival" is somehow the smoking gun when it is not negatively effecting adjacent stocks to the same degree is a misnomer IMO.
Nog
If you read my posts above, Nog - I stated: "In the case comparing juvenile survival between GCL and Sproat – both have likely been affected by reductions of survival in the marine environment - as numerous posters have pointed-out It also appears that in addition to those marine survival reductions – GCL has additional issues within the lake catchment basin verses Sproat.".
Disentangling what impacts reductions in marine survival has had on both systems, and what basin-specific impacts have on those basin-specific stocks can only be done if following all stages of life history and comparing survival/mortality at concurrent stages.
So comparing data from what # fertilized eggs were laid to egg survival to egg-sac fry to emergence to 1st yr numbers in the lake to growth and survival in the lake to outmigration at the lake exit to outmigration at the estuary to survival in the early life history to returns at spawning - is how one might disentangle those compounded effects for sockeye in these lakes.
That would require substantial effort, time & $ to do that.
However, from what smolts fences and lake studies we do have and from what escapement surveys and fish fences we do have - ocean survival is always a big factor and plausibly the likeliest largest factor that determines numbers of returning salmon - in addition to any other impact.
That assumption has been supported by data over substantial time and a substantial geographic area as mentioned by other posters and other researchers.
You are also correct in observing that fisheries themselves can also drive selection for genetics that favour smaller body size (in addition to poor nutrition) - and those fisheries include sportsfishing, as well as nets. The way around it for nets - to some extent - is to have lots of hanging ratio. The way around it for sportsfishing to release the larger fish.
One should be able to follow the size changes over a long timeframe (gradually over many generations and consistently getting smaller) to tell if it might be fisheries-selective - but over shorter timeframes (e.g. comparing between cohort years) it may be more informative to compare ocean survival (where available) and size can be a relic of levels of nutrition and survival. I think scale/otolith analyses could/should be used to differentiate between those interannual growth windows and infer survival.
Hopefully, that is a part of the Gulf of Alaska Expedition.
Disentangling what impacts reductions in marine survival has had on both systems, and what basin-specific impacts have on those basin-specific stocks can only be done if following all stages of life history and comparing survival/mortality at concurrent stages.
So comparing data from what # fertilized eggs were laid to egg survival to egg-sac fry to emergence to 1st yr numbers in the lake to growth and survival in the lake to outmigration at the lake exit to outmigration at the estuary to survival in the early life history to returns at spawning - is how one might disentangle those compounded effects for sockeye in these lakes.
That would require substantial effort, time & $ to do that.
However, from what smolts fences and lake studies we do have and from what escapement surveys and fish fences we do have - ocean survival is always a big factor and plausibly the likeliest largest factor that determines numbers of returning salmon - in addition to any other impact.
That assumption has been supported by data over substantial time and a substantial geographic area as mentioned by other posters and other researchers.
You are also correct in observing that fisheries themselves can also drive selection for genetics that favour smaller body size (in addition to poor nutrition) - and those fisheries include sportsfishing, as well as nets. The way around it for nets - to some extent - is to have lots of hanging ratio. The way around it for sportsfishing to release the larger fish.
One should be able to follow the size changes over a long timeframe (gradually over many generations and consistently getting smaller) to tell if it might be fisheries-selective - but over shorter timeframes (e.g. comparing between cohort years) it may be more informative to compare ocean survival (where available) and size can be a relic of levels of nutrition and survival. I think scale/otolith analyses could/should be used to differentiate between those interannual growth windows and infer survival.
Hopefully, that is a part of the Gulf of Alaska Expedition.
Low returns of salmon 'blob' babies prompts closure
by Ash Kelly
Posted Jul 11, 2019
https://www.citynews1130.com/2019/07/11/low-returns-of-salmon-blob-babies-prompts-closure/
by Ash Kelly
Posted Jul 11, 2019
https://www.citynews1130.com/2019/07/11/low-returns-of-salmon-blob-babies-prompts-closure/
saltcod
Active Member
Anybody fishing Georgia Strait the last 5-10 years has probably noticed a veritable Chinook abundance. Most Georgia Strait Chinook are ocean type, not stream type, so if there was a huge problem in the ocean, why would we be getting so many Chinook back. It's not due to increased hatchery production, those numbers are not increasing at all...
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