petition to keep the BC Grizzly hunt alive

Wikipedia. another great source of info. Maybe you should check the National enquirer for your next up date. Honestly if you are going to quote and base your statements on wiki, im not going to debate you anymore.

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/docs/Grizzly_Bear_Pop_Est_Report_Final_2012.pdf

There is some real data. and My reference to salmon was based on escapement and harvest data for most of our river systems and can be found on the DFO website. Alot of the rivers systems are managed to less then 50% escapement. Meaning over half of the fish are ok to kill based on Science. And that is Just peachy i guess for you guys., Springs in the Stamp this year was estimated at 34000 fish i think, im not sure but close to 20,000 (or more) we killed. Yet we are all up in arms with 2% of grizzly's being harvested is my point.

DISCONNECT YOUR FEELINGS AND USE YOUR BRAINS!

Show me how the Wikipedia stats are wrong because you didn't. They estimate 15,000 grizzlies in BC for 2012. How is that inconsistent with the Wikipedia numbers for Canada? Look at the range of grizzlies, what's left of it.

You didn't address the other issue - does the grizzly get eaten or is the meat left to rot?

And what about the absence of grizzly hatcheries? And, as pointed out by another poster, there is no catch and release in a trophy hunt, or any hunt for that matter.

No proper comparison Lorne. Not even close.
 
Im done for tonight. I have ducks to kill in the morning (if i can bring my self to pull the trigger on those cute little defenseless buggers)[/QUOTE]

If you hear the voice of a duck, saying dont shoot me......seek help!
 
there is no catch and release in a trophy hunt, or any hunt for that matter.

Saxe: to me, these words imply that you may be against all hunting? Have you tipped your cards?

does the grizzly get eaten or is the meat left to rot?

Little, if anything at all gets wasted in nature. One critters demise is another's bounty.

Since no one appears interested in any useful discussion on my reference to previous work done by people who actually 'know about bear behaviour' (Herrero/Shelton/MacLellan et al) ie. how it has been discovered that over time, non-hunted bear populations become bolder, more aggressive toward humans etc., let me ask all the anti-bear hunters this:

How many bears (Grizzlies/Blacks) do you feel is enough in BC?

In 99' when I wrote an essay on bear-human conflict there was an estimated 10,000 or so Grizzlies in BC (& about 160,000 Blackies). Back then, the bear-hugger NGO's claimed that the number of Grizz could be as low as 2000 animals. Why? Because it suited their fund-raising agenda by creating 'fear' in the 'hearts' of British Columbian's that our beloved Grizzlies were about to go the way of the Passenger Pigeon.

Now the estimate is pegged at closer to 15,000 bears. Perhaps 'the slaughter' is having an effect.

When all hunting of Grizzly bears ends, and they eventually expand their range and numbers - till they're roaming down Douglas St. at high-noon like the Polar Bears do in Churchill Manitoba each year - how will peoples' attitudes towards bears change? Who will they turn to to bring the population and the bears attitudes towards people back in check?

Bear Watch? PETA?

Clearly, the anti-bear-hunting camp seems little concerned with public safety.
 
Saxe: to me, these words imply that you may be against all hunting? Have you tipped your cards?



Little, if anything at all gets wasted in nature. One critters demise is another's bounty.

Since no one appears interested in any useful discussion on my reference to previous work done by people who actually 'know about bear behaviour' (Herrero/Shelton/MacLellan et al) ie. how it has been discovered that over time, non-hunted bear populations become bolder, more aggressive toward humans etc., let me ask all the anti-bear hunters this:

How many bears (Grizzlies/Blacks) do you feel is enough in BC?

In 99' when I wrote an essay on bear-human conflict there was an estimated 10,000 or so Grizzlies in BC (& about 160,000 Blackies). Back then, the bear-hugger NGO's claimed that the number of Grizz could be as low as 2000 animals. Why? Because it suited their fund-raising agenda by creating 'fear' in the 'hearts' of British Columbian's that our beloved Grizzlies were about to go the way of the Passenger Pigeon.

Now the estimate is pegged at closer to 15,000 bears. Perhaps 'the slaughter' is having an effect.

When all hunting of Grizzly bears ends, and they eventually expand their range and numbers - till they're roaming down Douglas St. at high-noon like the Polar Bears do in Churchill Manitoba each year - how will peoples' attitudes towards bears change? Who will they turn to to bring the population and the bears attitudes towards people back in check?

Bear Watch? PETA?

Clearly, the anti-bear-hunting camp seems little concerned with public safety.

So it sounds like you shoot your bear, leave the meat for scavengers to eat, or rot, and take the head or hide. Also sounds like you fancy yourself a "Jeremiah Johnson" type who is keeping all of us safe from being eaten by grizzlies looking to invade the cities for food! You were born in the wrong era my friend. I lived in the Yukon for a decade. Along with Alaska, it has the highest concentration of grizzlies in the world. Human grizzly encounters are rare events. They avoid people in almost all situations. Your justifications for killing them are pretty unbelievable, in fact downright ridiculous. Check how many people are injured or killed in North America every year in bear encounters. Let us know Jeremiah.
 
You were born in the wrong era my friend.

I'm not "your friend" nor is my last name Johnson - it's ANDERSON.

Your justifications for killing them are pretty unbelievable, in fact downright ridiculous.

I agree, bear attacks are rare, but there are many knowledgeable individuals out there who know bears who would readily disagree with this statement you made.

I've never shot a bear and at this stage of my life do not intend to, unless it has designs on eating me or a friend/loved one.

You can focus your 'schoolyard-banter' on someone else from here on in.
 

Dave S

That report was from back in 1999, when grizz was a GOS. Now it is the most heavily regulated hunt in North America, yet you still think that it is a slaughter........how is an avg of 30% success of approx 300 tags a slaughter. And the 300 tags is approx 2-3% of the est population, so 90 bears removed on avg by hunters equals less than 1% of the total population. However over 150 bears are destroyed every year by police and CO's by idiots who leave out attractants, are hit by vehicles or trains and by being agressive. Another 75-100 are shot by poachers, land owners who either leave out attractants or bears attack live stock and FN's. We can keep throughing numbers around, but the reality is that hunters are not the problem.

Like I have said before, if we want to keep seeing animals in the wild, we need to stop focusing on hunters, we do least amount of damage to a population. Instead, focus on the major causes of mortality, idiots who leave out attractants, our major highways, all the oil and gas exploration in the North (yes grizz live up there too), trains, poaching and the biggest one, loss of habitat. All this other factors cause more damage to any species than hunters or fisherman (throwing in salmon as it is along the same trends) will ever dream of.

But I guess hunters are an easy target, because no one wants to change progress........

And ask yourself and your anti hunting greenie friends why you don't take on those other factors that cause high mortality in bears......my belief is because this is the tip of the spear and using an emotional animal as the spear point helps get the "stop all hunting campain going"......but that just my belief.

Show me how the Wikipedia stats are wrong because you didn't. They estimate 15,000 grizzlies in BC for 2012. How is that inconsistent with the Wikipedia numbers for Canada? Look at the range of grizzlies, what's left of it.

You didn't address the other issue - does the grizzly get eaten or is the meat left to rot?

And what about the absence of grizzly hatcheries? And, as pointed out by another poster, there is no catch and release in a trophy hunt, or any hunt for that matter.

No proper comparison Lorne. Not even close.

Nope no catch and release, but a freezer full of organic, delicious, non steroid meat that helps feed my family through the winter and summer. I find it funny that people will look at hunting as something "Bad", yet have no problem heading down to the local store to pick up some meat that came from a domesticated animal that was fed growth hormones, fattened up on super feed and then slaughtered at a "Government Inspected" meat plant (and we all know how regulated that is.....) and shipped to the local store either already wrapped or ready to be cut and wrapped. I wonder how many hands handled that meat, how long it sat around in a supposedly controlled environment and did the meat cutters really give a crap about who was buying it as long as they get paid for cutting it up. Meat is meat, no matter where it came from and how it was killed, the bottom line is that it supplies a meal to our families.

As for grizz meat, the few that I was involved in, we packed out the hinds (make great smoked hams and sausage), and the backstraps (great steaks!!!), the fronts were too damaged by the shots to get anything edible, but the other grizzly bear and three martins the next day did not mind.

I am not trying to change your mind about your beliefs, but you really need to understand the "whole" story before you start jumping up and down about the grizz hunt.

Cheers

SS
 
My concern now after reading into this is I feel about the grizzles as I do about the salmon. Who do you believe when it comes to believing 'data'. The grizzle department seems just as sure of things as dfo does about salmon. If you want 'scientific' studies here is a start http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/grzz/index.htm The amount of 'error' in the studies is apparent and admitted. Its just like dfos ' voodoo math' and numbers and projections. The hunting allowances they make have to factor in maximum allowable human caused mortality which not from hunting and unknown kills but this info is old 1990-2006 and slow to come in, just like dfo.

From what I read, since we have colonized these lands more then half the grizzles have be killed. We know the progression of decline in things can accelerate (also a probability they say that has to be factored in but cant in the 'scientific study'. They say the over decline of the grizzley in the next 30 years is 30% in a healthy population. This can be much faster in poor to moderate areas. When they give out tags they cant say which unit of bears you can hunt. Some units can take a 3-5% (average allowable hunt) hit when some with 100 bears or fewer it is way to much. With computer programs doing the guess work with the grizzles I would like to think we would err on the side of caution as I agree with the ol timer who posted earlier the grizzly for me is the the apitamey of a Canadian wild animal. ( which sounds like what you were saying in your post sitka. If I had a choice weather the bear went to a poacher or a hunter the choice would be hunter but if they cannot control the poaching or non hunt kills, unfortunately for them its the hunter who will get the axe. this is not because people are against hunting its because someone has to take the hit)

The thing is a percentage of the bears killed are killed because they have to killed because of proximity to humans. This is the main reason hunting is taking a hit. Because so many of the bears are being killed this way there is very few spare bears to hunt. This is only because we as humans are spreading further and further out into bear habitat. We are sandwiching them in with towns on one side with logging and mines on another. There is reference to this in the 'scientific' studies above. Pro grizzly hunters say of course the populations are not 'controllable' or 'healthy'. Which is true but that there not admitting is that only because of humans activity that there is diminished viable bear habitat.

Alot of things I said are in the studies. Of course we can go threw and pick and choose what we want to believe. I read nothing on how the bears were increasing thats for sure. I also think 'take out the emotion' is silly. Why would we take out the emotion, almost everything we do in our life we do based out of emotion why would this be any different. The people who dont want a grizzle to die should have just as much say as I person who does want one to. Its not like taking away someones food source which would be different. (mabey depends on options and other factors which imnot getting into right now) I dont think anything should have to die so someone can feed there ego. I dont care call me a bleeding heart im proud to be. What is comes down to is what you feel are your rights. No one wants there right to be takin away. To me someones right to kill a bear is taking away someones elses right to see a bear live.
 
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Little, if anything at all gets wasted in nature. One critters demise is another's bounty.

Come on Terry. I know you respect nature and your impact on it. To go out in the wild, shoot an apex predator like a grizzly only to skin it and leave the carcass for the critters is not what hunting should be about. Aren't we supposed to respect the wild animals and fish we target? Does your theory imply that you are ok with this sort of thing as well?
Fish1696.jpg
[/IMG]
It all ends up being consumed by something right!

In my eyes, it's not right to be irresponsible with our harvest of natures resources. Maybe I'm a "bleeding heart". Maybe I'm a "greenie". Maybe I'm a "radical". One thing I'm not is waster of meat. If you don't want the meat, don't pull the trigger. Just one guys opinion on this matter.

PS. Not at all against hunting! I am a firm believer in getting into the wild and harvesting meat from nature.
 
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While wikipedia may not be perfect it's a much more accurate source than most of the other studies and opinion pieces floating around the web. Just because it may not agree with your point of view doesn't make it less credible. Anyways, came across this on facebook (another great source of info ;) this morning. I am sure some on here will dismiss it immediately as it was done by the Suzuki Foundation but science is science and despite what some people say science doesn't lean left or right when done properly.

Article on bear population studies in BC

British Columbia's controversial annual grizzly bear hunt leaves more of the animals dead than even the province's own wildlife guidelines allow, claims a new report to be released Thursday by the David Suzuki Foundation that once again calls on the government to curb the trophy hunt.

The report's release comes on the first day of this year's grizzly hunt, in which hundreds of the bears will be killed by trophy hunters around the province - a practice that critics have long said is unsustainable and must stop.

"This is new science that really questions the sustainability of the hunt," Faisal Moola of the foundation said in an interview.

"This is a disaster in the waiting. If we do not act to protect the species given what we know about its vulnerabilities, we may no longer have bears."

The report uses provincial government records to examine the number of grizzly bears that were killed by humans between 2004 and 2008 and compares them with the province's own limits for what it calls the allowable human-caused mortality rate.

B.C.'s grizzly bears are divided into 57 different population areas.

The report says in 20 of those, hunting alone accounted for more grizzly deaths than the province's allowable mortality rates at least once during the five-year period of the study.

When combined with other human-caused grizzly deaths - including legal kills by wildlife management officials and illegal poaching - the mortality rates were exceeded at least once in 36 areas, or 63 per cent.

That higher number, says Mr. Moola, is the most important, because it shows that too many bears are killed even when the hunt doesn't push the grizzly deaths over the limits.

"You can't look at trophy hunting in isolation - you have to look at trophy hunting in addition to the other sources of human-caused mortality," said Mr. Moola.

"What the study shows is that if you removed trophy hunting from the picture, you would actually drop the mortality rate below what the government thinks is sustainable."

The report is accompanied by a letter to Premier Gordon Campbell, signed by eight grizzly bear experts from Canada and the United States, urging the provincial government to establish a province-wide network of no-hunting zones.

British Columbia is estimated to be home to half of all grizzlies in Canada, and a quarter of the North American grizzly population.

B.C.'s grizzlies are considered a species of "special concern" by both the federal and provincial governments because of their slow reproductive rates and susceptibility to human activities.

Grizzly hunting is restricted in parts of the province, but every year a trophy hunt opens up throughout much of British Columbia during the spring and fall. The David Suzuki Foundation report estimates that, since 2001, an average of 253 bears a year have been killed by hunters in B.C.

There have been perennial calls for the hunt to be scrapped, but the Liberal government has consistently rejected those calls, arguing the hunt is sustainable and properly managed.

In 2001, the NDP government of the day implemented a moratorium on grizzly hunting, but that was overturned a few months later after the Liberals took power.

The David Suzuki Foundation released preliminary results from its latest study last month, prompting the province to issue a statement insisting it is committed to protecting grizzly bears.

The province noted it has closed almost two million hectares of land to grizzly hunting along the North and Central Coasts, and there are other strict no-kill zones elsewhere in the province.

Last year, when First Nations and conservation groups called for a hunting ban in an area known as the Great Bear Rainforest, B.C.'s premier suggested there were competing interests that needed to be taken into account.

"It's an issue where we're working hard to strike the appropriate balance," Mr. Campbell said in May 2009.

There are differing opinions on the health of bear populations in British Columbia, and conservation groups such as the David Suzuki Foundation suggest the government's current methods to estimate how bears are actually roaming the wilderness are flawed.

Alberta placed a moratorium on grizzly bear hunting in 2006, and is currently examining whether to keep the ban or revisit the issue.

Last year, the Manitoba government added grizzly bears to a list of species protected under the provincial wildlife act.

Grizzly bears have been extinct from Manitoba for a century, but migrant bears from Nunavut have been spotted, raising hopes the species is making a return.
 
Dave S

That report was from back in 1999, when grizz was a GOS. Now it is the most heavily regulated hunt in North America, yet you still think that it is a slaughter........how is an avg of 30% success of approx 300 tags a slaughter. And the 300 tags is approx 2-3% of the est population, so 90 bears removed on avg by hunters equals less than 1% of the total population. However over 150 bears are destroyed every year by police and CO's by idiots who leave out attractants, are hit by vehicles or trains and by being agressive. Another 75-100 are shot by poachers, land owners who either leave out attractants or bears attack live stock and FN's. We can keep throughing numbers around, but the reality is that hunters are not the problem.

Like I have said before, if we want to keep seeing animals in the wild, we need to stop focusing on hunters, we do least amount of damage to a population. Instead, focus on the major causes of mortality, idiots who leave out attractants, our major highways, all the oil and gas exploration in the North (yes grizz live up there too), trains, poaching and the biggest one, loss of habitat. All this other factors cause more damage to any species than hunters or fisherman (throwing in salmon as it is along the same trends) will ever dream of.

But I guess hunters are an easy target, because no one wants to change progress........

And ask yourself and your anti hunting greenie friends why you don't take on those other factors that cause high mortality in bears......my belief is because this is the tip of the spear and using an emotional animal as the spear point helps get the "stop all hunting campain going"......but that just my belief.




As for grizz meat, the few that I was involved in, we packed out the hinds (make great smoked hams and sausage), and the backstraps (great steaks!!!), the fronts were too damaged by the shots to get anything edible, but the other grizzly bear and three martins the next day did not mind.

I am not trying to change your mind about your beliefs, but you really need to understand the "whole" story before you start jumping up and down about the grizz hunt.

Cheers

SS

I am not an anti hunter. Neither are my friends. I fully support hunting! I never said nor do I think Grizzly hunting is a slaughter. I do think that trophy hunting is wasteful when no meat is harvested. IMO it's lazy and disrespectful to kill an animal and only harvest the fur, head, horns. Maybe I'm a "bleeding heart". Maybe I'm a "greenie". Maybe I'm a "radical". One thing I'm not is waster of meat. If you don't want the meat, don't pull the trigger. Just one guys opinion on this matter.
 
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Like Dave S, I am not anti- hunting and never said hunting is bad. And I share his views on trophy hunting. And some of the justifications for grizzly hunting (i.e. to save city dwellers from invading grizzly bears) only show how difficult it is to justify it on traditional ethical grounds, which involve eating what you take.
 
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SIMPLY AMAXING!!!!

Sitka your right on man!!!!!!!!!!! its apperant they dont get it like ive said before PROVINCAL manages WAY better thaen the fed ecer will to comapre it well thats like comparing a pinto car to a mustang no contest.......

MY buddies and I personally just buthered up 4 deer from sask today so it was 24 roasts almost 70 packages of burger and 68 steaks 6 of shanks for oso boco along with my first attempt and making summer sausage.(20lbs)
I would rather eat this meat that any other but the way some on here talk they will want hunting shut down too fricken unbelievable

Wolf
 
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While wikipedia may not be perfect it's a much more accurate source than most of the other studies and opinion pieces floating around the web. Just because it may not agree with your point of view doesn't make it less credible. Anyways, came across this on facebook (another great source of info ;) this morning. I am sure some on here will dismiss it immediately as it was done by the Suzuki Foundation but science is science and despite what some people say science doesn't lean left or right when done properly.

Article on bear population studies in BC

British Columbia's controversial annual grizzly bear hunt leaves more of the animals dead than even the province's own wildlife guidelines allow, claims a new report to be released Thursday by the David Suzuki Foundation that once again calls on the government to curb the trophy hunt.

The report's release comes on the first day of this year's grizzly hunt, in which hundreds of the bears will be killed by trophy hunters around the province - a practice that critics have long said is unsustainable and must stop.

"This is new science that really questions the sustainability of the hunt," Faisal Moola of the foundation said in an interview.

"This is a disaster in the waiting. If we do not act to protect the species given what we know about its vulnerabilities, we may no longer have bears."

The report uses provincial government records to examine the number of grizzly bears that were killed by humans between 2004 and 2008 and compares them with the province's own limits for what it calls the allowable human-caused mortality rate.

B.C.'s grizzly bears are divided into 57 different population areas.

The report says in 20 of those, hunting alone accounted for more grizzly deaths than the province's allowable mortality rates at least once during the five-year period of the study.

This physically impossible as bears are on a very strict draw system. So tell me if the Gov allows 2 draws and both are filled, how can the Suzuki foundation say it was over the mortality rates allowed???? Unless they throw in all the "Other" human factors, like poaching and the triple SSS, which is as far away from hunting as it is from fishing. Another bunch of BS from a group that wants to shut down everything that "They" don't like..........

When combined with other human-caused grizzly deaths - including legal kills by wildlife management officials and illegal poaching - the mortality rates were exceeded at least once in 36 areas, or 63 per cent.

So how can this be blamed on hunting???? More BS......but it is so easy to point the fingers at hunters. Why is the SF not going after the main reason why the CO are shooting problem bears??? Because they would not garner media and other greenies attention and the all mighty $$$$$ for which most of these organizations are really based on.

That higher number, says Mr. Moola, is the most important, because it shows that too many bears are killed even when the hunt doesn't push the grizzly deaths over the limits.

"You can't look at trophy hunting in isolation - you have to look at trophy hunting in addition to the other sources of human-caused mortality," said Mr. Moola.

"What the study shows is that if you removed trophy hunting from the picture, you would actually drop the mortality rate below what the government thinks is sustainable."

So easy to remove the only actual regulated program that is causing the death of a few bears. Again, why not go after the real problems, the loss of habitat, the idiots who attract these problem bears, hiring more CO's to stop poaching and the people who think all bears are warm and cuddly....... I bet not one environmental group has been in the Bella Coola Valley to help farmers/ranchers and home owners understand that having apples and other fruit on the ground, a compost, not cleaning out your chicken coop etc. attracts bears and results in them being killed. Another thing to think about when I say it the tip of the spear to stop all hunting. It's not about hunting bears, it's about stopping all hunting. because if it was just about the bears, they would be doing more than just jumping up and down about the hunt.

The report is accompanied by a letter to Premier Gordon Campbell, signed by eight grizzly bear experts from Canada and the United States, urging the provincial government to establish a province-wide network of no-hunting zones.

British Columbia is estimated to be home to half of all grizzlies in Canada, and a quarter of the North American grizzly population.

B.C.'s grizzlies are considered a species of "special concern" by both the federal and provincial governments because of their slow reproductive rates and susceptibility to human activities.

Grizzly hunting is restricted in parts of the province, but every year a trophy hunt opens up throughout much of British Columbia during the spring and fall. The David Suzuki Foundation report estimates that, since 2001, an average of 253 bears a year have been killed by hunters in B.C.

There have been perennial calls for the hunt to be scrapped, but the Liberal government has consistently rejected those calls, arguing the hunt is sustainable and properly managed.

In 2001, the NDP government of the day implemented a moratorium on grizzly hunting, but that was overturned a few months later after the Liberals took power.

The David Suzuki Foundation released preliminary results from its latest study last month, prompting the province to issue a statement insisting it is committed to protecting grizzly bears.

The province noted it has closed almost two million hectares of land to grizzly hunting along the North and Central Coasts, and there are other strict no-kill zones elsewhere in the province.

Last year, when First Nations and conservation groups called for a hunting ban in an area known as the Great Bear Rainforest, B.C.'s premier suggested there were competing interests that needed to be taken into account.

"It's an issue where we're working hard to strike the appropriate balance," Mr. Campbell said in May 2009.

There are differing opinions on the health of bear populations in British Columbia, and conservation groups such as the David Suzuki Foundation suggest the government's current methods to estimate how bears are actually roaming the wilderness are flawed.

Alberta placed a moratorium on grizzly bear hunting in 2006, and is currently examining whether to keep the ban or revisit the issue.

Last year, the Manitoba government added grizzly bears to a list of species protected under the provincial wildlife act.

Grizzly bears have been extinct from Manitoba for a century, but migrant bears from Nunavut have been spotted, raising hopes the species is making a return.

See my comments above..........and keep in mind that this repot is from one of the biggest anti hunting and anti everything groups on the planet, so of course they are biased.

I am not an anti hunter. Neither are my friends. I fully support hunting! I never said nor do I think Grizzly hunting is a slaughter. I do think that trophy hunting is wasteful when no meat is harvested. IMO it's lazy and disrespectful to kill an animal and only harvest the fur, head, horns. Maybe I'm a "bleeding heart". Maybe I'm a "greenie". Maybe I'm a "radical". One thing I'm not is waster of meat. If you don't want the meat, don't pull the trigger. Just one guys opinion on this matter.

Show me an example where it is legal for a hunter the just remove the head and horns here in BC??? You really need to read the the laws about hunting in BC before you start throuwing crap around like this....and please don't stereo type all hunters into the same group.....The only animals that you can leave the meat out in the bush are cougars, Grizz, wolves and the small fur bearers. You cannot leave any meat from any other animal.

I have ask you guys if you feel the same way about Black bears in BC??? If you knew and understood the regulations, why is it the grizz is your only focus???? Emotional????

Cheers

SS
 
And I think that may be the difference between you and others on this issue. I can't speak for anyone else but I personally don't care who backs/funds research as long as it adheres to the scientific method, including peer review. While there may be organizations on either side of this particular issue that doesn't necessarily make any reports/articles/papers they put out irrelevant. Are there opinions on both sides that are extreme or unwarranted? sure. But there are also opinions on both sides that are based on evidence and science. As informed citizens who want to openly discuss these issues it is our job to sort through the many opinions, papers, etc to find truth. I personally tend to put a majority time spent on these issues reading peer reviewed studies where possible and next to that I'll trust those in the industry who have shown to be open to science and reason vs unfounded rhetoric. I realize that there are many ways to interpret the same information and if you feel that the Suzuki foundation is a non-credible source that is your prerogative. I happen to think the Suzuki foundation does a lot of good work and as fishermen we should all be thankful of the contributions they make to help protect habitat and species. We should be so lucky to have people in this world who dedicate their lives to improving the lives of our children and grandchildren. While I don't agree with every aspect of their work overall they are very positive and powerful force IMO.

Good try ken. But I was finished with this thread the moment the Suzuki foundation got posted.

Lorne
 
And I think that may be the difference between you and others on this issue. I can't speak for anyone else but I personally don't care who backs/funds research as long as it adheres to the scientific method, including peer review. While there may be organizations on either side of this particular issue that doesn't necessarily make any reports/articles/papers they put out irrelevant. Are there opinions on both sides that are extreme or unwarranted? sure. But there are also opinions on both sides that are based on evidence and science. As informed citizens who want to openly discuss these issues it is our job to sort through the many opinions, papers, etc to find truth. I personally tend to put a majority time spent on these issues reading peer reviewed studies where possible and next to that I'll trust those in the industry who have shown to be open to science and reason vs unfounded rhetoric. I realize that there are many ways to interpret the same information and if you feel that the Suzuki foundation is a non-credible source that is your prerogative. I happen to think the Suzuki foundation does a lot of good work and as fishermen we should all be thankful of the contributions they make to help protect habitat and species. We should be so lucky to have people in this world who dedicate their lives to improving the lives of our children and grandchildren. While I don't agree with every aspect of their work overall they are very positive and powerful force IMO.

Cool story bro.

Lorne
 
Cool response bro. Just proved my point. Now go away if you have nothing to contribute as others are actually interested in civilized debate.

You are the best at the internet. Congrats, if I'm not capable of civilized debate stop quoting me and answer ken. I said a page ago I'm done. After the Suzuki post I lost any will I had to debate any further, same as when the Micheal Moore link was posted on gun control. IMO it is possible and just worth the time ti takes to debate people who use sources like that. Sometimes its better to move on. Which i have

Lorne
 
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I realized awhile back to just skip over certain peoples posts. They never have anything thought provoking to say. Not that im that great but at least I try. This phrase crosses my mind when talking to lots of people on different matters.


Ignorance is bliss

From Thomas Gray's poem, Ode on a Distant Prospect of Eton College (1742): "Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise."[1]
Proverb

Lack of knowledge results in happiness.
You are more comfortable if you don't know something.
 
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