Now the Gold is gone...

Your posts are interesting and good to see other perspectives from real world research. I noticed earlier this year steeping into some slow water on china creek that there were a good number of casings in the water for that stream. I don't fish it often but it have fished it for many years and was surprised to see them all. I believe that is caused by a boost of sunlight onto the river which wasn't there before, from the logging of the whole river basically leaving damn near completely open where as it used to be in a cave from the heavy tree coverage on the banks. Chinas only a matter of time though before it collapses too its not as though the fishing there is getting better its just not collapsing at the same rate. Take a stream across the canal from china very similar stream only it was logged many years before it held up for a good while but has since declined hard. The damage done by heavy silting and too many highwater events lasting longer and removing much of any nutrients to feed a river properly. China creek also doesn't have a hatchery robing from the wild stocks the next generation and continued numbers of fish. It also doesn't have a net fishery on it just as kelts are returning to the ocean. the number of steelhead caught in nets on the somass represents a huge amount of fish never returning. Seals are unable to get far up china, however I have seen them in stamp falls pool in the winter and watched them eat many steelhead and seen them early this winter in the lower somass having their way with what I could only guess were steelhead for a couple days. The Stamp and gold have more problems than just aquatic life but I agree its a problem but look at how many wild salmon spawn in these river and there is the answer this isn't fake news its the reality. Salmon feed the streams end of story other things can boost or take away from that but without salmon on streams steelhead will decline. Im not a scientist but I imagine the only reason steelhead exist is because of salmon and their abundance in rivers just like the cuttys and other trout that show up at spawning time. The Golds recent decline is mainly a result of logging and silting in the gold just like the stamp the egss are either sufficated or just wash away along with all the limited number of salmon carcasses that would normally feed the river. The stamp is so filled in the lower river that once good spots no longer hold fish at all(if there were any). Pretending that both the stamp and gold decline isn't because of the increased logging in the last 15 years and the lack of regulations is missing the biggest key to their demise. Both rivers get super hi and super low very quickly and these huge fluctuations are destroying the balanced eco system of many thousands of years that created these fish. Scientists aren't the enemy they have the answers on a level that us kicking around stones cant achieve just like we have the answers they cant get in a lab although most scientist get their info from the real world as well and dismissing them as if they have an agenda, when it sounds like the agenda is blame anything except logging and over fishing. I don't doubt acid rain is a possible impact or it could be all the ddt that was sprayed all over the forests for years as best logging practices and is now being released from the lakes that are warming up and turning over deeper where those chemicals are being stored. or it could be jet boats driving over redds or bridge trolls harassing kelts for 3 months of the year as they rest before descending into the river. Once stocks are so low it doesn't take much to push them over the edge which is why these rivers should be regulated better and protected more. All the research in the world wont make governments act if there are special intrests in the back yard trying to get out the last of the trees as fast and cheap as possible before the majority of people take notice, but its good to know all the possible causes.
 
Your posts are interesting and good to see other perspectives from real world research. I noticed earlier this year steeping into some slow water on china creek that there were a good number of casings in the water for that stream. I don't fish it often but it have fished it for many years and was surprised to see them all. I believe that is caused by a boost of sunlight onto the river which wasn't there before, from the logging of the whole river basically leaving damn near completely open where as it used to be in a cave from the heavy tree coverage on the banks. Chinas only a matter of time though before it collapses too its not as though the fishing there is getting better its just not collapsing at the same rate. Take a stream across the canal from china very similar stream only it was logged many years before it held up for a good while but has since declined hard. The damage done by heavy silting and too many highwater events lasting longer and removing much of any nutrients to feed a river properly. China creek also doesn't have a hatchery robing from the wild stocks the next generation and continued numbers of fish. It also doesn't have a net fishery on it just as kelts are returning to the ocean. the number of steelhead caught in nets on the somass represents a huge amount of fish never returning. Seals are unable to get far up china, however I have seen them in stamp falls pool in the winter and watched them eat many steelhead and seen them early this winter in the lower somass having their way with what I could only guess were steelhead for a couple days. The Stamp and gold have more problems than just aquatic life but I agree its a problem but look at how many wild salmon spawn in these river and there is the answer this isn't fake news its the reality. Salmon feed the streams end of story other things can boost or take away from that but without salmon on streams steelhead will decline. Im not a scientist but I imagine the only reason steelhead exist is because of salmon and their abundance in rivers just like the cuttys and other trout that show up at spawning time. The Golds recent decline is mainly a result of logging and silting in the gold just like the stamp the egss are either sufficated or just wash away along with all the limited number of salmon carcasses that would normally feed the river. The stamp is so filled in the lower river that once good spots no longer hold fish at all(if there were any). Pretending that both the stamp and gold decline isn't because of the increased logging in the last 15 years and the lack of regulations is missing the biggest key to their demise. Both rivers get super hi and super low very quickly and these huge fluctuations are destroying the balanced eco system of many thousands of years that created these fish. Scientists aren't the enemy they have the answers on a level that us kicking around stones cant achieve just like we have the answers they cant get in a lab although most scientist get their info from the real world as well and dismissing them as if they have an agenda, when it sounds like the agenda is blame anything except logging and over fishing. I don't doubt acid rain is a possible impact or it could be all the ddt that was sprayed all over the forests for years as best logging practices and is now being released from the lakes that are warming up and turning over deeper where those chemicals are being stored. or it could be jet boats driving over redds or bridge trolls harassing kelts for 3 months of the year as they rest before descending into the river. Once stocks are so low it doesn't take much to push them over the edge which is why these rivers should be regulated better and protected more. All the research in the world wont make governments act if there are special intrests in the back yard trying to get out the last of the trees as fast and cheap as possible before the majority of people take notice, but its good to know all the possible causes.
Nice to see my posts are inspiring new sign up on sfbc just to refute my assessments.

It is interesting that you feel recent logging has caused the new boost to ecology in china creek but it has damaging effects in the other streams?

You say, "salmon feed streams end of story", "I imagine the only reason steelhead exist is because of salmon and their abundance in rivers" and "without salmon steelhead will decline". Well that story doesn't stand up well when applied to the real world. In your theory how could it have ever been possible for streams like Couse creek to produce SH because salmon have never been farther than 500 meters up the creek? What comes first, the chicken or the egg? That story is filled with imagination all right.

You claim the Stamp and Gold are filled in from logging and silting? Well the videos show that this assumption is absolutely false. Do you have pictures or videos to prove what you claim?

I am also where you come up with DDT being sprayed all over the forests?? Any proof??

You do say something that I really believe to be true. "I am not a scientists" You don't need to prove that.

Thanks for your input!
 
Fishmyster...I am not entirely sure what you are talking about.. or what a afd attack is... . I am thinking you may have me confused with someone else?
In any case. Steelers point about the stocks being pushed over the edge is kind of what I was getting at. It's great that some streams are coming back but I don't think it alone will save the gold WR. I have personally seen seals in the nimpkish near woss.. in january that's like 50 km from tidewater.. what else are they doing there? Also personally seen on more than one year seals in the cowichan up to Stoltz and seals a the falls pool in the stamp, all in winter. Talked with friends/colleagues that have seen them take steelhead in the stamp. Cowichan. Nimpkish. Also read a blog post that has a number of seals taking steelhead in december at the pumphouse in the lower gold. I have never heard of any seals in China ck. Or the upper stamp, or the ash... Hmmmm.

I trust all these people are telling me the truth. And of course there are other predators. Mink I don't think are a big issue with adult steels perhaps juveniles . Otter maybe but there numbers haven't increased like seals have. And again summer runs are coming in with other fish like summer coho and sockeye giving them safety in numbers.

Back in the day when there were thousands of steelies in the gold. If a few hundred go missing from predators that's no big deal. But if you start with a few hundred.... bye bye .

I suppose tour right about not having video proof. But I don't think it's a far reach. And it is one of the few things we can manage for now....
 
Fishmyster...I am not entirely sure what you are talking about.. or what a afd attack is... . I am thinking you may have me confused with someone else?
In any case. Steelers point about the stocks being pushed over the edge is kind of what I was getting at. It's great that some streams are coming back but I don't think it alone will save the gold WR. I have personally seen seals in the nimpkish near woss.. in january that's like 50 km from tidewater.. what else are they doing there? Also personally seen on more than one year seals in the cowichan up to Stoltz and seals a the falls pool in the stamp, all in winter. Talked with friends/colleagues that have seen them take steelhead in the stamp. Cowichan. Nimpkish. Also read a blog post that has a number of seals taking steelhead in december at the pumphouse in the lower gold. I have never heard of any seals in China ck. Or the upper stamp, or the ash... Hmmmm.

I trust all these people are telling me the truth. And of course there are other predators. Mink I don't think are a big issue with adult steels perhaps juveniles . Otter maybe but there numbers haven't increased like seals have. And again summer runs are coming in with other fish like summer coho and sockeye giving them safety in numbers.

Back in the day when there were thousands of steelies in the gold. If a few hundred go missing from predators that's no big deal. But if you start with a few hundred.... bye bye .

I suppose tour right about not having video proof. But I don't think it's a far reach. And it is one of the few things we can manage for now....
I do not make my assessments based on blog posts and hear say from others. I use field facts and observations then apply water quality science to put reasoning to the changes in ecology that I am witnessing.

Despite all the doom and gloom the field evidence I am finding indicates we are now going into an era of higher freshwater productivity. It is just going to take a few years for the decomposing bacteria and food webs to return into the waterways that it all has been eliminated.
 
Gonna take a little bit of a different approach here....
As stated before I spend a lot of time on the gold each season.
Just going to give a couple facts.
-2011 was the last year that we found the river to have strong numbers of fish. That year was an awesome return with many fish encountered each day.
- 2009 we started seeing numerous seals almost daily in the lower river.
- 2006 to present more logging within the system and its tributaries. One of the most stable rivers in BC would now quickly silt out and blow out quickly. The once tea coloured river would now go grey or brown very quickly.
- We also saw an increase in hatchery summer and winter run strays. ( not saying it’s a problem just giving some facts)
- Many of the runs had filled with silt.
-Very few anglers, so pressure is not a problem.

In terms of fishing we always would time the high water in the early season and then I would spend most of feb in Gold river. We drifted the mid river almost daily and always tried to time the tide on the lower river each day when it was appropriate. Every second day we would do the upper river hikes.

Again let’s try not to get into personal attacks here.
I am just stating facts and firsthand experience.
Kenny you have many years on this system and would appreciate some insight on this system.
Thanks
 
I applaud fishmyster for his efforts doing field observations on aquatic life in the rivers. What I have noticed in my 35 yrs chasing steelhead having lived on the island for 10 yrs and now on the main land. The rivers stay low alot more and for alot longer with each passing yr making the fish more vunerable to fishing pressure and causing stress on the fish. A huge increase in anglers chasing fewer fish, how many times does a wild steelhead get caught and released in a season? I witnessed a beautiful large chrome wild doe stone dead on the shore just downstream from a heavily fished hole on the Vedder a few weeks ago. I suspect from poor fish handling skills and/or having been caught and released one to many times. One of the brood stock catchers I chatted with recently told me they are really struggling to tube wilds and it gets tougher every yr. Low water for longer periods, many more anglers chasing fewer fish is not helping the situation.
 
Tubing the wilds into extinction has long been a major problem for me.
I would love to see a regulation where you are not allowed to remove wild fish from the water.
Between the hero pics and tubing of the upper river stock the wild population this stock faces a lot of trouble. Finding dead wilds is not something new over the last 5 years.
A system like the Gold angler pressure is not the problem...

Let's stay on track here
 
Last edited:
Gonna take a little bit of a different approach here....
As stated before I spend a lot of time on the gold each season.
Just going to give a couple facts.
-2011 was the last year that we found the river to have strong numbers of fish. That year was an awesome return with many fish encountered each day.
- 2009 we started seeing numerous seals almost daily in the lower river.
- 2006 to present more logging within the system and its tributaries. One of the most stable rivers in BC would now quickly silt out and blow out quickly. The once tea coloured river would now go grey or brown very quickly.
- We also saw an increase in hatchery summer and winter run strays. ( not saying it’s a problem just giving some facts)
- Many of the runs had filled with silt.
-Very few anglers, so pressure is not a problem.

In terms of fishing we always would time the high water in the early season and then I would spend most of feb in Gold river. We drifted the mid river almost daily and always tried to time the tide on the lower river each day when it was appropriate. Every second day we would do the upper river hikes.

Again let’s try not to get into personal attacks here.
I am just stating facts and firsthand experience.
Kenny you have many years on this system and would appreciate some insight on this system.
Thanks
Yes, lets keep the personal attacks out.

The good fishing in 2011 you seen from maybe a couple hundred fish is still nothing compared to the runs of thousands in the late 1980's.

Gold river has been logged over many times. the logging you see in of second growth. Why didn't the first round kill everything? What makes this time around different? If all this logging is killing it all why is Megin river in Clayquot sound gone dead?

Where is all this silt?? The video of the Gold river Helicopter run shows some of the most suitable habitat anywhere in this province! There is no silt, sediment or fines filling in the beautiful cobble. A steelhead couldn't find any more structurally stable piece of stream anywhere. Over hear China creek silts more than any other stream but is still proving to have the best ecology.

Steelhead have evolved with seals. I seen seals at the circus hole back in the early 1990's. Seals used to come to Stamp falls pool in the early 1990's. It's nothing new. As you know, I fish many central coast streams. One of my favorites is the Nootom. Nootom has been logged heavily and every time I have run the estuary there is like fourty seals. Somehow this rocky but low gradient stream consistently produces a small run of steelhead despite logging, seal barricade, ocean blob and my relentless hooks beating up on them. Fur me to imagine that the rare seal sightings I had in the Gold back in the 1990's resulted in the demise of what was a run of thousands of SH is just not imaginable.

I'm really curious why you guys are so dead against acid rain being a factor? My assessments come from touring the coast into even remote locations and then researching water chemistry to make sense of the changes I have witnessed. I also grew up with streams in my back yard so have the fond memories of feeding the abundant caddis to the juvenile SH. The variety of my visited sites give me the ability to cross reference many habitats and compare. My research and experienced combined has lead me to believe streams have acidified and are now on the mend. Why are you guys so angry with this??
 
Kenny, not against your info or your ideas. I truly hope that we can find solutions with the information and the dedication you have provided.

Passionate anglers who care about their resources should never be turned away and should be encouraged.

Hopefully your findings can make their way through the MOE and biologists on the coast.
 
Kenny, not against your info or your ideas. I truly hope that we can find solutions with the information and the dedication you have provided.

Passionate anglers who care about their resources should never be turned away and should be encouraged.

Hopefully your findings can make their way through the MOE and biologists on the coast.
The solution has already happened! The rain is not as acidic any more. Yesterdays melted snow pH was 5.2. This is the lowest reading all winter and still pretty good.

My last peek into the Stamp stream bed was very exciting! Someone even sent me a picture of a freshly hatched stonefly found at the falls pool from a couple days ago. Insects that spawned in the Stamp have appeared to have done so success and their offspring have survived the winter so far! be excited!!

In my opinion Gold river is far from done. As the deposited contamination from years past flush from that stream there will be a repopulation of a food web there too. It is just going to take time.
 
https://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/library/Forest_History_Newsletter/11.pdf. that's just the first thing that popped up about ddt being used in the forests of bc including almost the entire island and the effects it had on fish population and possibly still could be. I figured if you were so into your cause of acid rain you would have at least come across its use its kind of common knowledge and historical fact. The Gold was depressed the first time after it was logged as well it just wasn't as noticeable because the baseline was so much larger now with a baseline of a couple hundred fish if lucky any little impact is enough to end it. Logging the first time may not have wiped out the gold but the fourth or fifth time did. Cous is the perfect example for what will happen to china creek ,there are many studies that have been done on short term boosts in insects for river with no benefit to the fish because water temps also rise and oxygen decreases and longer term more problems from erosion and silting, but you would have to believe the fake news scientists. In rivers like china creek the fish don't spend the time in the upper river as juveniles they are in the estuaries and lower stretches where salmon access and fertilize. They spawn in the upper reaches for them but don't live there as much as they do on other passable streams that should have rich nutrients from salmon carcasses. comparing two large rivers to a crick is not exactly apple to apples. The proof of my claims are much the same as yours, learned from years of experience and based on other facts ive learned I guess I should start finding sources and quoting them before I write about something I learned years ago. holding up a rock isn't proof of anything either. No one is saying you are wrong about acid rain your cause is valid and probably correct on some level but other peoples opinions are just as valid from many years of fishing and thinking about the fish as well. Problems usually come from the most obvious things down not the most obscure up, acid rain may be hurting steelhead but not having the food source of dead salmon is killing them the proof is reflected in the current state of affairs for steelhead caused by the lack of wild spawning salmon to feed them, I know this because I spend all my free time walking around in rivers fishing and I have for many years. Its the same for the remote rivers that you say are also in decline but were never logged theses smaller rivers runs can be wiped out by one commercial opening and heavy sports fishing removing the only nutrients from the river and thus reducing the steelhead numbers, even if its not from logging the removal of the spawning salmon has the same affect. juvenile steelhead need salmon at every stage to survive they feed on each of their life cycles.
 
Phewf!
For a sec there I thought we had a crisis on our hands. Crisis averted. Armchair bios can rejoice and continue to warm their chairs while the problem fixes itself.

On a more serious note.
Good points steeler. My feeling is that logging has a part to play .. though I am not convinced it is a smoking gun. And that ddt fact is something i have never heard of... Thanks for everyone's else input too. Boots on the ground and knowledge based on observations over time are legitimate. I am thinking We will find that there are many issues at play causing declines over time. And perhaps with some action, we can work to resolve some of them - to atleast give the fish a fighting chance.
 
Nice to see my posts are inspiring new sign up on sfbc just to refute my assessments.

It is interesting that you feel recent logging has caused the new boost to ecology in china creek but it has damaging effects in the other streams?

You say, "salmon feed streams end of story", "I imagine the only reason steelhead exist is because of salmon and their abundance in rivers" and "without salmon steelhead will decline". Well that story doesn't stand up well when applied to the real world. In your theory how could it have ever been possible for streams like Couse creek to produce SH because salmon have never been farther than 500 meters up the creek? What comes first, the chicken or the egg? That story is filled with imagination all right.

You claim the Stamp and Gold are filled in from logging and silting? Well the videos show that this assumption is absolutely false. Do you have pictures or videos to prove what you claim?

I am also where you come up with DDT being sprayed all over the forests?? Any proof??

You do say something that I really believe to be true. "I am not a scientists" You don't need to prove that.

Thanks for your input!
Courtenay has been on this forum before under a different handle
 
Some food for thought on the impact of logging on fish stream productivity/health. I am involved in the forestry planning on Vancouver Island and there has definitely been some negative effects to stream morphology throughout the 1960s to the early 1990s. In the early 1990s, the Forest Practices Code was introduced which brought tougher legislation in regards to stream buffers particularly for fish streams - I wouldn't think the current forestry practices are having a negative effect for the Gold/Heber but because of poor road construction practices in the 1970/80s that lead to landslides, I'm sure theirs a legacy of detrimental effects to fish health. An interesting result of the Carnation Creek Study, done near Bamfield starting the the early 1970s, is the accelerated development of salmon eggs following clearcut logging right to the stream edge. This accelerated development is the result of an increased temperature, afforded by the loss of canopy cover. So, in short I believe that poor road construction standards have had some negative effect on the Gold and many other rivers, but this has more to do with changes in stream morphology then it does with productivity.
 

Attachments

  • carnation creek study.pdf
    2.9 MB · Views: 5
The solution has already happened! The rain is not as acidic any more. Yesterdays melted snow pH was 5.2. This is the lowest reading all winter and still pretty good.
.

While I have never doubted there is some effects from water quality, I have never bought in to your theory that it is the only thing that matters. One just needs to look at the Chinook returns on the Columbia (Bonneville Dam counts) to see that a compilation of many river systems has over time had significant fluctuations in Chinook returns over time, and if anything the main correlative factor is not you acid rain history, but ocean conditions and associated survival. If you look at chinook returns to Bonneville dam ypu see increasing returns leading from the 1980s to peaks in 2013-2015 corinciding with some good ocean survival in the 20009 to 2011 period. If your theories were correct the Calumbia should have been showing decreases during those time periods, and should now be increasing in numbers, but instead the returns are decreasing during the El-nono and "blob" phenomena.

1980:207770 1981: 232299 1982: 247911 1983: 185665 1984: 216465 1985 296429 1986 370729 1987 468610 1988 411896 1989 373205
1990 296525 1991 226411 1992 219688 1993 259337 1994 2081971995 189419 1996 272884 1997 360673 1998 248860 1999 306981 2000 401711
2001 867728 2002 871763 2003 921314 2004 846026 2005 570413 2006 493708 2007 275954 2008 518942 2009 480284 2010 809799 2011 677171 2012 589937 2013 1129664 2014 1152643 2015 1337101 2016 697981 2017 488981
 
The solution has already happened! The rain is not as acidic any more. Yesterdays melted snow pH was 5.2. This is the lowest reading all winter and still pretty good.

My last peek into the Stamp stream bed was very exciting! Someone even sent me a picture of a freshly hatched stonefly found at the falls pool from a couple days ago. Insects that spawned in the Stamp have appeared to have done so success and their offspring have survived the winter so far! be excited!!

In my opinion Gold river is far from done. As the deposited contamination from years past flush from that stream there will be a repopulation of a food web there too. It is just going to take time.
How does this data compare with your data?
index.php
 
https://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/library/Forest_History_Newsletter/11.pdf. that's just the first thing that popped up about ddt being used in the forests of bc including almost the entire island and the effects it had on fish population and possibly still could be. I figured if you were so into your cause of acid rain you would have at least come across its use its kind of common knowledge and historical fact. The Gold was depressed the first time after it was logged as well it just wasn't as noticeable because the baseline was so much larger now with a baseline of a couple hundred fish if lucky any little impact is enough to end it. Logging the first time may not have wiped out the gold but the fourth or fifth time did. Cous is the perfect example for what will happen to china creek ,there are many studies that have been done on short term boosts in insects for river with no benefit to the fish because water temps also rise and oxygen decreases and longer term more problems from erosion and silting, but you would have to believe the fake news scientists. In rivers like china creek the fish don't spend the time in the upper river as juveniles they are in the estuaries and lower stretches where salmon access and fertilize. They spawn in the upper reaches for them but don't live there as much as they do on other passable streams that should have rich nutrients from salmon carcasses. comparing two large rivers to a crick is not exactly apple to apples. The proof of my claims are much the same as yours, learned from years of experience and based on other facts ive learned I guess I should start finding sources and quoting them before I write about something I learned years ago. holding up a rock isn't proof of anything either. No one is saying you are wrong about acid rain your cause is valid and probably correct on some level but other peoples opinions are just as valid from many years of fishing and thinking about the fish as well. Problems usually come from the most obvious things down not the most obscure up, acid rain may be hurting steelhead but not having the food source of dead salmon is killing them the proof is reflected in the current state of affairs for steelhead caused by the lack of wild spawning salmon to feed them, I know this because I spend all my free time walking around in rivers fishing and I have for many years. Its the same for the remote rivers that you say are also in decline but were never logged theses smaller rivers runs can be wiped out by one commercial opening and heavy sports fishing removing the only nutrients from the river and thus reducing the steelhead numbers, even if its not from logging the removal of the spawning salmon has the same affect. juvenile steelhead need salmon at every stage to survive they feed on each of their life cycles.
Thanks for the link on the DDT spraying.
 
Good find GLG. I would have expected a more acidic profile.
I got the idea from something chris73 said that he works where they have been monitoring for 30 years and he did not see a trend. I just found the data and pulled it into excel and plotted it with a trend line.
Something weird from 2004 to 2006 but it could be an instrument change.
 
How does this data compare with your data?
index.php
Good find GLG!
Not sure how it fits yet but got me curious. Do you know if that data is from electronic continuous pH testing or an average of grab sampling?

It does look like the pH drops more frequently2004-2006. How does that measure up to the Quinsam stock stats?
When I was out sampling last week the Campbell and Gold mainstem had almost no invertebrates and the Quinsam was the best for diversity and abundance.
 
Back
Top