Mars Water Bomber - Sign petition to ReInstate Bomber For 5 more Years Across BC

SpringVelocity

Crew Member
Many of you know that BC rejected the Coulson Group Martin Mars bomber from contract this fire season. If you were at Sproat lake you probably noticed she is not sitting in the lake. Now there are many fires raging out of control where we have a fully capable aircraft on the island. The problem is there is not one aircraft that BC has the capability per payload of the mars bomber...There is a petition launched to allow the mars to operate again.... Please sign when you have time.... This is another stubborn government where someone made a decision and won't back down.

Plus its our Port Alberni icon!!!


https://www.change.org/en-CA/petiti...s-waterbombers-for-5-more-years-to-protect-bc
 
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SV

The biggest problem with the MARS is that it is very limited in what it can do. It cannot fight fire in the mountains or near residentual areas, not very manuverable, is very expensive to use for limited return, needs long runs for approach and if water is not near, huge turn arounds. Yea it carries lots of water, but again, it is one drop. It is a slow, ponderous machine that although is a great looking plane, it is past it time. There is way better planes for the job now.

Having been involved in the wildfires for a long time, and have seen all types of aircraft fight fire, the new ones are a way bigger bang for the $$$. The Wildfire Branch of BC, the best in the world, has made the right decission. The MARS can go back to California and fight the coastal fires alongside the ocean.

I have also heard that Coulsons wanted a huge amount of $$$ even if it was not flying, so if we had a wet, slow summer, it would have cost the taxpayers $$$.

Time to put the old girl up in a Museum, her time is limited.

Cheers

SS
 
Make your own conclusion of the Mars' usefulness:
1003002_1_3361529_01_760x224.jpg


http://www.smithsonianchannel.com/sc/web/series/1003002/mighty-planes/3361529/martin-mars

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Last-Martin-Water-Bomber-To-Retire220627-1.html
 
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Yup, big old airplane that can drop water. But where does it get it water from.....it needs a huge lake or the ocean and a long run to to get the water it needs. If the fire is in the steep mountains, near residential area or has no large water bodies near by, she now has serious limitations. To pay big $$$ while she sits back in Alberni is a waste of tax payer money.

As guy who has been on the ground and in the thick of it with wildfires for many years, I would take the smaller, more maneverable, faster and more efficient air tankers any day. Yea it is cool to watch the MARS drop a load and in certain situations, she can be usefull, but her limitations far outway her usefullness.

If the MARS was such a good fire fighting plane, they would still be making them.

SV, curious as to where you found that BCWB is in need for 4 more aircraft?? And you say way more expensive than what??

The MARS was usefull in the more open country of Mexico and California, but in BC she is has been replaced. Time to move on.

Cheers

SS
 
Being privy to more of the admin side of the issue,budgetary concerns are huge. Management is directed by costs per liter delivered to drop zones.
In simple terms,the Mars cannot meet or even come close to the expected operational costs of other aircraft.
I absolutely love these big birds and would love to see some big beasts built to replace them,but,the costs would be astronomical.
 
SS, I guess you're also on board with the proposed F-35A fighter jet purchase; now there's a complete waste of taxpayers money,$17 - $45 BILLION was the estimated amount....:rolleyes:
 
Having flown all over this province in a search and rescue role I have to say in all honesty that the Mars has limited uses in Mountainous terrain. It is too heavy and for its size underpowered to operate where most of the fires in this province occur. Nobody disputes that it is a wonderful old aircraft-the queen of airshows and the master of heavy tonnage water drops---in reasonably flat terrain with large bodies of water close at hand. Sadly this is not the case in most of the province. These types of aircraft are incredibly expensive to keep running with a lot of parts HAND MADE by machinist and expertise getting scarcer by the year. I'm sure it comes down to a cost per litre delivered scenario which finally got them. It will be interesting to see if someone else picks up their contract which will tell us a lot!!!
 
Not to mention that the Mars Bomber uses Av-Gas, and tons of it. Av-Gas is getting harder to find especially in those quantities. Not sure how they fuel that thing on the water.
 
You related to Wayne Colson at all, SpringVelocity? I don't see much here that says the Mars performs badly. I see a lot of comments suggesting that there's other, more modern, aircraft that perform better and are more economical to operate in the kinds of conditions in BC.
 
SS, I guess you're also on board with the proposed F-35A fighter jet purchase; now there's a complete waste of taxpayers money,$17 - $45 BILLION was the estimated amount....:rolleyes:

How did you go from MARS and fire fighting to military aircraft and costs??? Know wonder posts go sideways......:confused:

Not sure why someone opens a post, then acts like a politician and holds back info that "they cannot comment too much on"..........If you want the MARS to be brought back, throw put all the info so we can make a proper judgement. Not sure the purpose of using sentimental reasons and emotions to bring back an old bird that has limited use in fighting fires in BC, if there is a different story out there we need to hear about. You must work with Coulsons......?

Cheers

SS
 
I removed my posts it never was supposed to be a debate........it was to get people to sign petition....do what you guys want...
 
I support Martin Mars to continue doing its job for several more years. I would not like to see Martin Mars go. That plane is at home on Sproat Lake. If the plane has to go, Port Alberni will lose something valuable that is here for over 4 decades that could upset many Alberni Valley residents.
 
I fought 3 fires while employed with timberwest that the mars responded too. This was back in the F.I.F.T days. They were absolutely awesome and all 3 they took water tight beside the fire, either upper Campbell or buttle. I'm definitively not here to argue the $/L but in those 3 situations nothing made today could have had the volume/hr those dinosaurs had. I totally understand the $/L budgetary constraints....., but not sure apples are being compared to apples. $/L does not necessarily = forest being saved. I hope I am wrong and this summer will prove so, but so far she's been dry folks
 
well said GnB

yes, it is a sentimental thing, but there is NO DOUBT this machine has a use for many of the 300 current fires burning in BC - West Kelowna would be out by now if the Mars was working it hard - tell me about $/L then...

gladly sign - unfortunately i think Cal will pick up the Mars this year with their brutal drought.
 
SV

The biggest problem with the MARS is that it is very limited in what it can do. It cannot fight fire in the mountains or near residentual areas, not very manuverable, is very expensive to use for limited return, needs long runs for approach and if water is not near, huge turn arounds. Yea it carries lots of water, but again, it is one drop. It is a slow, ponderous machine that although is a great looking plane, it is past it time. There is way better planes for the job now.

Having been involved in the wildfires for a long time, and have seen all types of aircraft fight fire, the new ones are a way bigger bang for the $$$. The Wildfire Branch of BC, the best in the world, has made the right decission. The MARS can go back to California and fight the coastal fires alongside the ocean.

I have also heard that Coulsons wanted a huge amount of $$$ even if it was not flying, so if we had a wet, slow summer, it would have cost the taxpayers $$$.

Time to put the old girl up in a Museum, her time is limited.

Cheers

SS


Hey I work on the CL-415 and you saying avgas is hard to find not really a lot of airport and gas company's like shell or any gas company's carry them. Coulson group company buy gas in nanaimo shell company or other gas company too.
I been visiting Wayne coulson at the Martin Mars base few time a year. It's very sad that Philippine Mars is heading to museum in Florida. It's a best thing to give one aircraft back in USA . A lot of military vet love to see it..


Hawaii Mars can still fly another 5 years but who knows. The contract cost between 700,000 to 750,000 a season + cost $8000 a day to fight fires with Hawaii Mars and you see the government spending 5 million a day . Without Hawaii Mars. At The home base they have ton of spare engines which they using some for parts.

I do want the Hawaii Mars back in air. If you ever watch ice pilots they uses older aircraft in air. Don't matter the aircraft is old.
 
I too have spent much time fighting fire. Watched many bombers working. The Martin Mars are a spectacular airplane, on the water and in the air working. It is not a mountain machine. If you watch the news, you will notice lots of small aircraft..... Air tractors. http://www.airtractor.com/aircraft/802f-fire-boss

These are much more practical for interior bc mountains. These much smaller and versatile machines I am sure are the way of the future. For the benefit of all of us, one of these should be found on every airstrip in BC. It is not so important about volume as it is about quick response and accuracy. Although large volume is also critical in the fire fighting arena. We have this in the Ducks and the DC aircraft.

Issue here is everyone loves to see the big planes and don't feel that the fire is being fought to the highest potential without them. The fact is our government is starting to figure out that quick action, and maybe even starting to fight before 9am is critical to in the success in fighting fire. If this was 2003, West Kelowna would likely be embers too.

FS
 
I love the rumble of the big planes, and they certainly become an icon of the Alberni area. I also got a thrill when the A-26's fought fires in the mountains near home. Every plane has it's day. I wonder how many smaller turbo props could run at the expense of the Mars? I would think anywhere away from a large body of water and in tight terrain would be better served by faster turn around and more agile planes.
 
Probably all comes down to money....

Referring to an earlier post........The Mars never was designed as a firefighting plane......it was invented back in the day in the U.S. as a troop carrier.....which is why they never "made more of them".....

They were later bought and converted to fire-fighting use...

They do have limitations......but their track record over the years is pretty damn good all things considered......

Have some good memories of watching them come in to fight a fire.....coming in so low you could count the rivets on the bottom of the plane....and the thunderous roar of the 4 engines......

Takes a good pilot and crew to fly the Mars......

On the other hand I'd hate to see the actual operating costs per annum for that plane.....
 
CFAX is doing a survey on the Mars water bomber;they have also mentioned the petition several times over the last couple of days, I think it has about 11,000 signatures now. BTW I am not involved with the Coulson group.
Mars Poll:Should B.C bring back the Mars waterbomber to fight wildfires?
92% YES
7%NO

http://www.cfax1070.com/

Should BC bring back the Martin Mars waterbombers to fight wildfires?
92% yes
8%NO

 
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I forwarded this thread to a good friend of mine, he sent me this:

" I love the Mars. I love the sound of her, and I love to see her fly. She is a spectacular piece of machinery, and is a huge part of BC Aviation history. She is NOT a good water bomber compared to other airplanes today - whether you compare dollar for dollar or Litre per Litre of water put on the fire. As a previous manager and Chief Pilot of the Martin Mars, i am SICK of hearing these posts crying out about why the BC Government is not compelled to hire a private company with an antique (albeit a very nostalgic one for residents of the Alberni Valley) airplane to fight fires, when the Government feels that the best solution is provided by another means. Management at Forest Industry Flying Tankers used the same tactic back in 2003 when they no longer had the support of Macmillan Bloedel and Weyerhauser. There were fires burning in Kelowna and the Mars was not invited to participate in the profitable business of putting those fires out. The media was called, and after a TV interview with the Manager of Forest Industries Flying Tankers (staged on the shore of Sproat Lake, with the Martin Mars in the background), public outcry swayed the BC Government in to hiring the Martin Mars. Per dollar spent, the Mars (and I love them) was much less effective than other machines on those fires.
Fighting fires - like disaster relief - is a business. The Martin Mars is no exception. They are not available to save the world because of one man's belief that fire is evil. They are available because one man believes that he can make a fortune operating them. I wish him success - but I am tired of hearing him and his supporters cry because their particular company has not been awarded a lucrative contract by the BC Government. There are many different tools used to fight wildfires in BC. Why should the BC Government be forced in to using a tool that they know from 50 years experience with the Martin Mars, is not as effective as other tools?


Steve Stackhouse
Martin Mars Captain 2003 - 2007. Chief Pilot 2007. Proud to be a Sproat Lake resident, and lifelong admirer of the mighty Martin Mars.
 
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