Let's Start to Make An Attempt to Save Salmon and Orcas.

Discussion in 'Conservation, Fishery Politics and Management.' started by Fishing?, Feb 6, 2018.

  1. Fishing?

    Fishing? Member

    There is so much contradictory speculation and science for the decline of salmon stocks. Everything from climate change to nature.

    Let's just do away with all the distractions and make an attempt at saving the salmon now.

    If it is fish farms then it is easily tested and immediate results, well as immediate as a salmon generation or two.
    Simply stop the salmon farms for 10 years. The Salmon farms should embrace his idea especially if there were guarantee's of a return if there is no improvement.

    This can done now and have an immediate effect.

    Lets look at the seal population explosion.

    Again they are not an endangered species and they were hunted by First Nations as a supplemental food and clothing source, so starting a seal cull would also have an immediate effect.

    Yes they are cute little things with a bite that would take your arm off like a shark, but they look cute.
    Culling 60,000 seals would not even be half the population but it would have an immediate effect.

    Climate change, a global effort is required and the effects may not be seen for centuries, that doesn't mean don't do all that can be done to reverse the situation, it is just that there will not be an immediate effect on the salmon populations.

    Our endangered southern Orca population does not eat seals, they eat salmon, seals are there competitors.
    So much is made of their declining populations by various political groups, they would like everything from eliminating tankers due to sound, although the population was stable for decades with nosier and more polluting engines in big metal ships to stopping fishing for wild salmon (I think)
    These groups use the Orca decline as a political weapon and they are not interested in trying to do things that can reverse the decline and be done locally and have an immediate effect. More food, more births, starving mothers don't have healthy calves.

    Both ideas listed could/would leave more wild salmon for the endangered Orcas starting the day after in the case of a cull.

    I don't need to be a scientist to be able to read and I am certainly not going to start creating mysterious reasons for what is happening. Okay there is a global event taking place, I'll buy that but there are things that have happened locally over the last 20 years and it is in the last 20 years that here have been massive changes in salmon populations.

    My solutions, stop free water salmon farms for at least 10 years, a total moratorium, it won't hurt the income from taxes much, see what happens to salmon stocks.

    Have a seal cull, hunt them for their skins and meat for fertilizer, food, off shore sales, take the seal population down to 90,000 or less or so for a couple of years, maybe two salmon generations.

    See what happens to the southern Orca population.

    These are things that can be done locally now, immediately, by the province and the results could be measured within days to a few years.,

    The reason I say salmon generations is the Norwegian virus may need two generations to be eliminated from the wild stocks.

    With all the "scientists" going one way or the other on the subject of this mysterious virus, have there been any studies or investigations to see if constantly being exposed to the virus, eating infected salmon, crosses over in a muted form? Or causes other symptoms? Could a whale's system being fighting symptoms caused from the newly introduced virus and end up compromising them? Pretty sure if there is a correlation of the salmon virus causing the whales a problem the farms would be shut down immediately without decades of studies.

    Maybe that is why the aquarium is not allowed to nurse whales back to health or not have the ability to investigate whale and seal deaths. Politics.

    And, how much money does the province make from the salmon farms, how much money do the salmon farms and their employee's donate to political parties?
    trophywife and wildmanyeah like this.
  2. Derby

    Derby Well-Known Member

    forgot the amount of pollution that is being dumped in the sound & ocean..this would also need to be addressed.. the favorite food of them is 4 and 5 year old Chinooks....
  3. Fishing?

    Fishing? Member

    Those would/could be expensive, longer term and require massive efforts to eliminate over night.
    195,000 seals and sea lions in Georgia and Juan de Fuca Straits, I am sure some of them eat big salmon.

    I am just trying to turn back the clock 25 years basically overnight, at least where legislation to protect seals and introduction of fish farms is concerned.

    If there is any doubt, take it out.

    Both suggestion don't take the majority of the population to reverse, even as just an experiment. Neither suggestion is/would be irreversible.

    Just read that the government charges less than 3% for a salmon farm lease than what it costs in Norway.
    trophywife likes this.
  4. Derby

    Derby Well-Known Member

    and it will all be necessary and it is all being looked at...
  5. Fishing?

    Fishing? Member

    Start with the easiest and fastest, the salmon and orcas don't have decades to wait.

    My suggestion with regard to STARTING, could done tomorrow, instantly. The affects would still needed salmon generations.
    The cull idea might have a more immediate effect for Orcas' though.
  6. Derby

    Derby Well-Known Member

    we (SFAB) have some people involved with this process with a complete understanding what is required in dealing with helping out the SRKW ...everyone is waiting on DFO now in which we should have something in the next couple weeks ..then off to the races we go....
    trophywife and SpringFever552 like this.
  7. wildmanyeah

    wildmanyeah Well-Known Member

    Its not just seals that will need to be looked at, all salmon predictors, Seals, birds, dog fish ect

    Without a doubt there is going to be short term pain going around for long term gain.

    As I just found out there is also going to be a COSEWIC ASSESSMENT for Southern BC Chinook. Most likely a SARA listing for Thompson steelhead. The new DFO changes to fisheries act ect

    It's not hard to read threw the lines that there is going to be more area closures and tighter regulations. The main question I want to find out as what does this mean for mix stocked fisheries?

    Get involved if you want your voice herd. 2018 lots of stuff happening!
  8. Fishing?

    Fishing? Member

    Hey, how about a class action lawsuit against Dr. Gary Marty for conflict of interest.
    trophywife likes this.
  9. Fishing?

    Fishing? Member

    Yes, other predators, but only fish farms and seal protection was done by a single piece of legislation and political decisions.

    Just looked over some stats around fish farms money, they claim ALL employees in the system, including the one's that process wild stocks, are because of them in their figures. They claim they have over 6500 employees.

    Norway would be charging over 150 mil for leases in BC, BC gets around 1.3 mil for leases

    Best I could see was all levels of government get around 85 mil per year from income tax of all employees (the 6500+ they claim), gst, pst. leases, etc out of the 1.5 billion they generate.
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  10. wildmanyeah

    wildmanyeah Well-Known Member

    I am not going to argue with you on any of these topics, as I spent pretty much the whole month of December debating it and im done. I would suggest if you want fish farms gone then to join one of the many ENGO groups and donate your time and money to them.

    MY recommendations are https://www.watershed-watch.org/ and http://wsda.ca/
  11. Fishing?

    Fishing? Member

    You assume I am anti fish farm?
    Perhaps I am just pro salmon and a whale lover. There are very few, if any, pointing fingers that correlate with time and decline as much as these two issues.
    People in BC can't clean up the world in 2 years, can't alter the weather in 10, but can error on the side of caution when dealing with extinction level events that may be man caused.
  12. wildmanyeah

    wildmanyeah Well-Known Member

    IF you were pro salmon you would of done the research and realizes that salmon stocks started to collapse in the 1970's. As a stop gap measure we created hatchery and when ocean survival rates were at 10% boy did the hatcheries work.

    So why did the original collapse happen? salmon farms? seals? commercial fishing? banning whaling? bait fisheries?

    We set escapement goals and fish the abundance every time. 20 million sockeye returned to the Fraser river in 2014 and we fished over 10 million of them. What if we would of let that 20 million spawn?
  13. terrin

    terrin Well-Known Member

    If you were pro salmon you would have done the research and realize that at some point more millions of fish returning to the Fraser will just displace the spawn of previous sockeye that have already done their thing. I like the OP Fishing? ideas and they seem practical and obvious first steps to me. By the way your numbers are quite a bit off similar to what DFO does a lot of the time.
    Summary of catches and spawners for Fraser River sockeye in 2014

    (Source: Department of Fisheries and Oceans and Pacific Salmon Commission)

    Early summer runs Mid summer runs Late summer runs Total Fraser sockeye
    In-season spawning target 665,300 2,835,000 3,780,000 7,280,300
    Sockeye spawners counted 643,900 2,861,000 2,375,487 5,880,387
    Portion of total allocations not caught by fishermen 137,400 385,200 1,049,700 1,572,300
    Number of spawners if entire allocations had been caught 506,500 2,475,800 1,325,787 4,308,087
    Spawning shortfall relative to in-season target -3% +1% -37% -19%
    Spawning shortfall if all fish allocated to fishermen had been caught -24% -13% -65% -41%
  14. Fishing?

    Fishing? Member

    As a child of the 60's and 70's when the salmon stocks were in danger the forest companies ended up paying millions to conserve and create buffer zones around creeks, thousands of them and rivers as well as building bridges. The government also started salmon enhancement projects. The salmon had been totally ignored for 75 years before the runs started to be a concern. Howe sound and Indian arm used to huge runs, now they are all but gone.

    Another thing from the late 70's early 80's, the Sto-lo chief was caught in a sting (video) by the FBI selling 2 million tons of Sockeye salmon to black marketers, the Canadian federal government gave the Sto-lo chief a million dollars to stop fishing the river.

    While there is absolutely no scientific evidence, that 20 mil run coincided with the few tons of iron filings dumped in the ocean in the area young salmon feed and the enormous plankton blooms that occurred after.

    BTW nobody is scientifically sure why there so many salmon that year, the run exceeded the forecast by a factor of 2.
    As a side note one year after the iron thing and the seal cull on the Columbia river damn, their Chinook runs have been record breaking just about every year.
    wildmanyeah likes this.
  15. wildmanyeah

    wildmanyeah Well-Known Member

    Still happens every year!


    "During years of high abundance of salmon, officers in his area might seize 150 to 200 illegal gillnets, dropping to 60 to 70 during years of low abundance.

    Poaching activity reaches its peak during the large and lucrative sockeye runs, when more fish can be caught in a short time, with illegal activity declining by the time the late runs of chum pass through in the fall."

    "Former B. C. Supreme Court Justice Bryan Williams headed a panel review into the 2004 mysterious disappearance of close to 1.5 million sockeye headed up the Fraser River. The panel heard damning testimony from fisheries officers who said they didn’t have the time or the resources to police illegal fishing on the Fraser.

    The Williams report in April 2005 cited “ rampant” poaching and unusually warm water temperatures as likely explanations for the missing salmon, suggested a possible link between the salmon black market and the drug trade, and criticized the federal government for withholding crucial evidence on illegal aboriginal fishing on the Fraser River to the panel."

    Ken Malloway, grand chief of the Sto: lo Nation, agrees that relations have improved “ quite a bit” with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and that aboriginal people as well as fisheries officers have made it happen.
  16. Fishing?

    Fishing? Member

    Is it wanting fish farms gone more than saving the salmon and Orcas?

    My suggestions can be taken directly, by individuals, to their MLA and asked by a phone call. Just ask for information to be mailed.
    I have found that some of these "save" whatever's are "infiltrated" by the pro side. They scream at the top of their lungs that "their" issue is the reason for declines. It is like astro surfing, just have so many associations claiming that theirs is the reason.

    It is just to cloud the issue, spread out support.

    The thought that the salmon are disappearing gets support by too many "I know the reason groups" and the public is shrouded in the confusion and allows the government time to do nothing or say they need studies.

    Like I posted, there are two things that can be done by the people of British Columbia they MIGHT have an immediate and noticeable affect on both salmon and whale populations.

    Niether suggestion is irreversible, two can be enacted within 24 hours of a decision and there should be no arguments from any source.

    The salmon farms should embrace the idea to prove their point that they have no effect on the environment.

    While not popular, a seal cull could provide a small industry for a year or two.

    The federal government isn't required for these decision(s) just the person one step up from your mayor.

    Do what can be done locally, that is by the Province of British Columbia's MLAs.

    Don't tie the problem to global warming, to 1rst nations issues, to habitat or any of the other distractions, KIS, Keep It Simple.

    Don't join an organization that is there to cloud the issues with a myriad of possibilities or realities that can not be actioned for decades, require outside intervention and do your thinking for you.

    Fish farms are a local issue, a BC issue.
  17. california

    california Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry this whole thing is so Naive. Do you think that any of these issues exist in a Vaccum?
    1. Seal kills - there is no guarantee killing seals will do anything. Doing it will cause an enormous outcry, not only within BC and Canada, but internationally. One of BCs biggest businesses is international tourism, remember our slogan "super Natural BC". Barbarically killing tens of thousands of seals will do enormous damage to BC's brand and reputation as an international outdoor oriented tourist destination. The people and businesses involved in the tourist trade will quickly ally with the NGOs and environmental groups. This will not happen, and shouldn't.
    2. Fish farms will gladly pack up operations for 10 Years? At a cost of hundreds of millions of $ in lost profits. The industry is large and powerful, and have legal leases in place. They will not go easily or quietly, and certainly NOT voluntarily. Its also unlikely 2 generations of chinook will be enough to assess outcomes on fish farms in any case, if indeed they do have a deleterious effect. How do you even seperate it from the not well understood effects of ocean survival and other factors.
    3, If you are wanting these pollyanna ideas implemented immediately, you forgot one. The one with the most effect immediately. Ban all salmon fishing. Surely if Fish farms are willing to pack up for 10 years as you outline, sport fisherman would be willing to do the same right? All should share in the pain. Fisherman, Seals, Fish farm operators?
    wildmanyeah, Fishmyster and Dave like this.

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