Just about had enough of Courtney O

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I must also note it's difficult to see the number of you who claim there is "no conservation problem" on the SSS system when reports I hear regularly indicate that about 70% of the steelhead in the system are hatchery production.

You "hear" is that a new scientific way they are doing things now?
The SSS Steelhead are not a conservation problem as noted by MOE.

I do note that you it appears do not like hatchery production?
 
I must also note it's difficult to see the number of you who claim there is "no conservation problem" on the SSS system when reports I hear regularly indicate that about 70% of the steelhead in the system are hatchery production.

You "hear" is that a new scientific way they are doing things now?
The SSS Steelhead are not a conservation problem as noted by MOE.

I do note that you it appears do not like hatchery production?
 
Just happened upon this and thought I'd cut-n-paste it for you.
One guys opinion on the difference between experiences.

"It was a TON of fun. We had a group of 6, 5 from Ontario and me being the only Yank. We drove thru a snowstorm to get to the Hamilton airport, met Marcel Dionne during our lay over in Calgary, and ended up at the airport in Comox on the island. We rented a van and drove to the Gold. Our plan was to fish the Gold for two days and then drive south and fish the Stamp for three. The Gold was an awesome place, Pic number 4 below shows a picture from the bottom of the canyon. The plan on the first day was to send the two oldest, less mobile gents down the river with Matt (Guiget) in the raft. Matt showed the rest of us a couple access points and off we went. The "trail" down to the river that first morning made the stairs at Tippy or the Whirlpool look like a walk in the park. But it was worth it when we got to the bottom! That river reads like an open book, tons of big, deep slow pools with white water in the tailout. The jigs I had brought were from Oregon called Stuarts Steelhead Bullets. They were just a plain marabou jig, all cerise or hot pink (ordered them from Fisherman's Shack in Oregon). I went 3-4 that morning and all the boys wanted jigs.....
The next day one of my buddies and I went down the river with Matt. The guys the day before had done real well and they don't even float fish much so we were pumped. But a cold snap had moved in over night and the fish were much less aggressive, I was 1-2 and my buddy went 0-1. We saw some great water and tons of eagles, I HATED to leave that place.

We fished and stayed with Murphy's Sportfishing on the Stamp, the lodge and guides are first class all the way. The Stamp is seperated by a falls that has a fish ladder. In the lower river, bait and jets are allowed while the upper river has a bait ban - which made no sense.
Anyway, the lower river is pretty flat and the scenery isn't the greatest but we all hooked fish the first day with the highlight being my buddy Yogi getting his personal best steelhead on his birthday (16/17 pound est.). There seemded to be some fresh fish around but we had to work for them, that and we all worked the same 8 or 10 holes all day.
The second day was quite slow and some of us wanted to see some different water. We were offered to fish the upper river, so 4 of us jumped on it and we set off the next morning.
The upper river has far fewer people and looks more like a BC river. It had quite the mix of fish as well. We could see summer runs spawning all over the first section of river (we left them alone of course) and hit pre and post spawn summer runs and fresh winter fish all thru our drift. I was doing well with my jigs again, Yogi hit fish on Gooey Bob's wrapped in netting (like a spawn bag) and we hit a number of fish on plugs in the faster tailouts. It was a fun last day on the river, even though our guide was a Leafs fan

I'd go back to the Gold in a hearbeat but not the Stamp. The lodge and the people at the Stamp were great but the fishery left something to be desired. I just have a problem spend the kind of money it takes to get out there and fish the same holes over and over again for mostly hatchery fish. If you live out west and want to rack up some numbers, then this would be a better destination."

Take care.
 
Just happened upon this and thought I'd cut-n-paste it for you.
One guys opinion on the difference between experiences.

"It was a TON of fun. We had a group of 6, 5 from Ontario and me being the only Yank. We drove thru a snowstorm to get to the Hamilton airport, met Marcel Dionne during our lay over in Calgary, and ended up at the airport in Comox on the island. We rented a van and drove to the Gold. Our plan was to fish the Gold for two days and then drive south and fish the Stamp for three. The Gold was an awesome place, Pic number 4 below shows a picture from the bottom of the canyon. The plan on the first day was to send the two oldest, less mobile gents down the river with Matt (Guiget) in the raft. Matt showed the rest of us a couple access points and off we went. The "trail" down to the river that first morning made the stairs at Tippy or the Whirlpool look like a walk in the park. But it was worth it when we got to the bottom! That river reads like an open book, tons of big, deep slow pools with white water in the tailout. The jigs I had brought were from Oregon called Stuarts Steelhead Bullets. They were just a plain marabou jig, all cerise or hot pink (ordered them from Fisherman's Shack in Oregon). I went 3-4 that morning and all the boys wanted jigs.....
The next day one of my buddies and I went down the river with Matt. The guys the day before had done real well and they don't even float fish much so we were pumped. But a cold snap had moved in over night and the fish were much less aggressive, I was 1-2 and my buddy went 0-1. We saw some great water and tons of eagles, I HATED to leave that place.

We fished and stayed with Murphy's Sportfishing on the Stamp, the lodge and guides are first class all the way. The Stamp is seperated by a falls that has a fish ladder. In the lower river, bait and jets are allowed while the upper river has a bait ban - which made no sense.
Anyway, the lower river is pretty flat and the scenery isn't the greatest but we all hooked fish the first day with the highlight being my buddy Yogi getting his personal best steelhead on his birthday (16/17 pound est.). There seemded to be some fresh fish around but we had to work for them, that and we all worked the same 8 or 10 holes all day.
The second day was quite slow and some of us wanted to see some different water. We were offered to fish the upper river, so 4 of us jumped on it and we set off the next morning.
The upper river has far fewer people and looks more like a BC river. It had quite the mix of fish as well. We could see summer runs spawning all over the first section of river (we left them alone of course) and hit pre and post spawn summer runs and fresh winter fish all thru our drift. I was doing well with my jigs again, Yogi hit fish on Gooey Bob's wrapped in netting (like a spawn bag) and we hit a number of fish on plugs in the faster tailouts. It was a fun last day on the river, even though our guide was a Leafs fan

I'd go back to the Gold in a hearbeat but not the Stamp. The lodge and the people at the Stamp were great but the fishery left something to be desired. I just have a problem spend the kind of money it takes to get out there and fish the same holes over and over again for mostly hatchery fish. If you live out west and want to rack up some numbers, then this would be a better destination."

Take care.
 
...bad work computer - we always seem to leave it logged in!
 
...bad work computer - we always seem to leave it logged in!
 
Let me try this again, under my own nick...

DaveH,

I really don't think that I am unable to think or express my thoughts in a clear or orderly manner and I personally do not find it hard to talk about a topic that I am passionate about. I don't think that I have ever really felt tongue-tied to the point of embarrassment either. However I am feeling that somewhere in your previous post, that I have missed your point.

RVP
 
Let me try this again, under my own nick...

DaveH,

I really don't think that I am unable to think or express my thoughts in a clear or orderly manner and I personally do not find it hard to talk about a topic that I am passionate about. I don't think that I have ever really felt tongue-tied to the point of embarrassment either. However I am feeling that somewhere in your previous post, that I have missed your point.

RVP
 
Nothing serious Robert, but some of your posts tend to ramble on in a somewhat disjointed manner and those are probably the ones you have sent before sitting for a few moments and editing them.
Otherwise I can understand your points easily enough considering your POV. And you can think just fine..........but.....
Go back and read a couple of your posts and you'll see how they are almost like a continous run-on sentence and obviously written quickly and with passion, if not good grammar. :D

That makes them appear somewhat rambling and/or incoherent sometimes.

No worries.

And as to how I feel about hatchery producton???

I see a place for it in the great scheme of things although it's really an indictment of our inability to overcome basic human greed insofar as we've destroyed or damaged virtually every watershed on the Island in the name of logging. Back when I was active I recall poring over mounds of government papers and reports and finally finding that in the whole Province of BC over a period of some 50 years of post WWII logging i.e. powersaws, steel towers and grapple yarders, less than 1/2 of one percent of the area logged had ever been set aside for riparian protection zones on fish-bearing streams.
I wondered then how many people would have starved to death from lack of a job and money had we set aside perhaps one whole percent of the area logged in BC for riparian protection zones. Not many I'd argue, and we might still have strong native wild fish.
Done properly, with the goal in mind of actually keeping the stream flows as historically stable as possible, we might have logged and not have compromised our naturally reproducing stocks of fish so badly that we now need hatcheries.
One renewable resource harvest severely damaged the other.

Hatcheries are monuments to our own stupidity...... in truth.

But, in the case of the SSS system it seems to have a strong positive influence on the Port Alberni area, and if the Ministry sees no conservation concern there then sobeit. I know little about that area other than what I've read and heard.
And when the broodstock fishermen tell me that seven out of ten steelhead they catch are clipped I have no reason to doubt them.
Mind you that was several years ago so things might be better now.


And kudos to Dave Murphy if the story of him funding the program is true, although what a terrible indictment of the government and their obvious lack of concern (funding) for this program it seems to be too.

But I'm all-too-familiar with that lack of funding and having to give money to projects the Province should fund as we supported and paid for quite a few of them back in the '90's.

I recall when I first ever found this board back about eight or nine years ago the big topic on the discussion board was "Sacrificial Rivers".

As I recall the SSS system was one of them.

Gotta go feed baby birds now.



Take care.
 
Nothing serious Robert, but some of your posts tend to ramble on in a somewhat disjointed manner and those are probably the ones you have sent before sitting for a few moments and editing them.
Otherwise I can understand your points easily enough considering your POV. And you can think just fine..........but.....
Go back and read a couple of your posts and you'll see how they are almost like a continous run-on sentence and obviously written quickly and with passion, if not good grammar. :D

That makes them appear somewhat rambling and/or incoherent sometimes.

No worries.

And as to how I feel about hatchery producton???

I see a place for it in the great scheme of things although it's really an indictment of our inability to overcome basic human greed insofar as we've destroyed or damaged virtually every watershed on the Island in the name of logging. Back when I was active I recall poring over mounds of government papers and reports and finally finding that in the whole Province of BC over a period of some 50 years of post WWII logging i.e. powersaws, steel towers and grapple yarders, less than 1/2 of one percent of the area logged had ever been set aside for riparian protection zones on fish-bearing streams.
I wondered then how many people would have starved to death from lack of a job and money had we set aside perhaps one whole percent of the area logged in BC for riparian protection zones. Not many I'd argue, and we might still have strong native wild fish.
Done properly, with the goal in mind of actually keeping the stream flows as historically stable as possible, we might have logged and not have compromised our naturally reproducing stocks of fish so badly that we now need hatcheries.
One renewable resource harvest severely damaged the other.

Hatcheries are monuments to our own stupidity...... in truth.

But, in the case of the SSS system it seems to have a strong positive influence on the Port Alberni area, and if the Ministry sees no conservation concern there then sobeit. I know little about that area other than what I've read and heard.
And when the broodstock fishermen tell me that seven out of ten steelhead they catch are clipped I have no reason to doubt them.
Mind you that was several years ago so things might be better now.


And kudos to Dave Murphy if the story of him funding the program is true, although what a terrible indictment of the government and their obvious lack of concern (funding) for this program it seems to be too.

But I'm all-too-familiar with that lack of funding and having to give money to projects the Province should fund as we supported and paid for quite a few of them back in the '90's.

I recall when I first ever found this board back about eight or nine years ago the big topic on the discussion board was "Sacrificial Rivers".

As I recall the SSS system was one of them.

Gotta go feed baby birds now.



Take care.
 
who cares what someones's grammer is like, not everyone here is trying to be a journalist or write a column, just average joe's jabbering about a topic we are all passionate about, if someone misspells something or a sentence goes on way to long who cares not me or i would bet most people on here, i have seen this in other post's before knocking someone about their grammar , if you were talking face to face with that person they most likely ramble on till they were done not leaving you the chance to point out they have used improper grammer, and i am not just picking on this one instance, ok i have had my 2 cents now
tks[:p]
 
who cares what someones's grammer is like, not everyone here is trying to be a journalist or write a column, just average joe's jabbering about a topic we are all passionate about, if someone misspells something or a sentence goes on way to long who cares not me or i would bet most people on here, i have seen this in other post's before knocking someone about their grammar , if you were talking face to face with that person they most likely ramble on till they were done not leaving you the chance to point out they have used improper grammer, and i am not just picking on this one instance, ok i have had my 2 cents now
tks[:p]
 
"It's time for a Hats Off to Roe Bags"

for his legendary ability to extricate information to create these legendary topics wich result in numerous pages of responses, attracting over 6000 viewings in a week!
He clearly should be in categarized by our Mods, as a legendary contributer regardless of who has posted the most on SFBC, and then hold that title like Gretzky and #99. Perhaps Bags has earned the right to wear Iron Noggins Fish BC hat and do some laps at the Red Lion again? Another Classic Moment in SFBC history

This topic is dredging characters of all sorts out of the Darkest corners from all over the Rock to interupt this diplomatic approach by certain fly only user groups, to accertain a singular right to a piece of water. Definitly proving to be some interesting reading and yet another masterpiece that in time should only get even better.
 
"It's time for a Hats Off to Roe Bags"

for his legendary ability to extricate information to create these legendary topics wich result in numerous pages of responses, attracting over 6000 viewings in a week!
He clearly should be in categarized by our Mods, as a legendary contributer regardless of who has posted the most on SFBC, and then hold that title like Gretzky and #99. Perhaps Bags has earned the right to wear Iron Noggins Fish BC hat and do some laps at the Red Lion again? Another Classic Moment in SFBC history

This topic is dredging characters of all sorts out of the Darkest corners from all over the Rock to interupt this diplomatic approach by certain fly only user groups, to accertain a singular right to a piece of water. Definitly proving to be some interesting reading and yet another masterpiece that in time should only get even better.
 
...yes, Maddog - good on Bags for pushing this topic to the top. It seems that the main instigator [Mr.O] of this entire topic should also be aplauded as he has inadvertently created some very constructive conversation in relation to bettering opportunities for all anglers - I am rather disapointed that he had little more to say about the topic, such as he has so many times in the past passionately and openly writen about within the pages of IA newspaper.

I have also noticed that that [Mr.O] has rewriten his web page, removing any reference to the use of his jet boat to access fragile and remote wild steelhead streams of Vancouver Island.

in reference - original cuts as found - now newly edited and removed from the following page.
http://www.ogilvieoutfitting.com/?page_id=4

The following is what was eliminated...

Welcome to Ogilvie Outfitting!

"In this time of impersonal relationships and greed it is refreshing to find characters of genuine care and values. Ogilvie Outfitting as committed to providing only the most memorable experiences and Top Quality products in the world of Fly Fishing; Bar None! - Courtney Ogilvie"

further in...

"Come join us for that Extraordinary trip, be it from a Jet Boat trip up Ocean Access Only Rivers to Walk and Wade Adventures along our local streams that are home to beautiful Wild Steelhead in the 10lb.range or that ever elusive Coastal Cutthroat Trout."

[xx(]
 
...yes, Maddog - good on Bags for pushing this topic to the top. It seems that the main instigator [Mr.O] of this entire topic should also be aplauded as he has inadvertently created some very constructive conversation in relation to bettering opportunities for all anglers - I am rather disapointed that he had little more to say about the topic, such as he has so many times in the past passionately and openly writen about within the pages of IA newspaper.

I have also noticed that that [Mr.O] has rewriten his web page, removing any reference to the use of his jet boat to access fragile and remote wild steelhead streams of Vancouver Island.

in reference - original cuts as found - now newly edited and removed from the following page.
http://www.ogilvieoutfitting.com/?page_id=4

The following is what was eliminated...

Welcome to Ogilvie Outfitting!

"In this time of impersonal relationships and greed it is refreshing to find characters of genuine care and values. Ogilvie Outfitting as committed to providing only the most memorable experiences and Top Quality products in the world of Fly Fishing; Bar None! - Courtney Ogilvie"

further in...

"Come join us for that Extraordinary trip, be it from a Jet Boat trip up Ocean Access Only Rivers to Walk and Wade Adventures along our local streams that are home to beautiful Wild Steelhead in the 10lb.range or that ever elusive Coastal Cutthroat Trout."

[xx(]
 
Dave H.
I would have replyed erlier but my internet service was down.
I think I’ve might have stirred a hornet’s nest again!
My CR guide quote the other night was uncalled and I am sorry again. The angler group that you were a part of back then represented and stood up for many great things that involved this resource, I’m sure to much more extent than my knowledge. The pristine setting and true wild steelhead fishing opportunity that the Gold has was invaluable to you guys and you did what it took to keep it the way. Your club fought passionately and deserves recognition. I want to commend you people for the good that you all have done to protect many fisheries. I honestly wish there was some way for me to burry the hatchet on this past situation. I was hoping this mater was now water under the bridge.
My rezones for operating on the Gold at the time were also the great experience it provided. The setting of the village is breathtaking. All facilities being hotels, fuel, restaurants, pub, were all available there the Gold River was a perfect place to set up shop. There were quite a few guys that were against jets there. These guys expressed that the jet boat took away the pristine ambiance of the setting. They did not want to see this river end up like the Stamp. I always felt that compared to pulp mill, chip trucks, logging camp and gas stations my small jet wasn’t all that bad. We all see things from different angles. Has the big ugly stain up the side of the mountain above the mill site gone away yet?

You reference to a “sacrificial river” kind of hit me a little too. In my travels around b.c. chasing fish and game I notice lots of these types of rivers. Some rivers boast historic angling glory and now are lonely for fish propagation. It seems while some streams were very sensitive to logging others are quite resilient when the land from witch they drain is destroyed. I observe components like stream gradient, geological factors, lakes or not, debris flows ect…, and try to pay attention to the complex details, I have still so much to learn. My favorite place to be is an untouched, unlogged and unexploited river valley. Most people never see or experience such places due to lack of logging road access and they can be difficult reach. These places are very rare nowadays and extra special to me. I look for the river under every bridge I cross while driving around. It’s always disappointed when I see a set of train tracks. It is a pitty that some of the greatest fresh habitat has been altered [sacrificed] by other forms of industry and may never produce the same again.
There’s a lot of controversy between bait usage, gear and fly fishing these days. I personally feel that bigger factors than catch and release fishing contribute to fish stocks inconsistencies. Factors like ocean climate, global warming, and fresh water climate habitat potential are by far the biggest factors with predation [birds, otters, seals, whale, and sea lice ect…] following respectfully behind. Catch and release, its way down there. All this jibber jabber over tackle preferences and who’s allowed what where and when is not going to save the species. Bait bans and flyfishihg only is not an efective conservation tool if a fish stock is indeed in trouble. I don’t thing c&r with any type of tackle is hardly a bump on the log when looking at the big picture from a biolodgical stand point, but this is just my opinion.
Mr. H you have struck my curiosity by mentioning the past and how you turned Gold river council against me. When in the area I had circulated a petition to all the bussnesses in the village and only one bussness did not support me in defending the power boat issue. The owner of the hardware store stated that the river should be fished from the bank by fly only. My most unprofessional action in that area that comes too mined is an exchange of words between my self and a C.R. guide and you must know who. This man was polite to me when spoken to in town one on one but always yelled at me when I and my guests passed by on the river. He would state that I was breaking the law even though the restriction had not been passed yet. On one day we both said things that were not true and should not have been said. I believe he had provoked me and his words were equally as harsh as mine. Maybe you were there? Mr. H I have always taken pride in being accountable for my actions. If I have done a deed so dastardly that it helped you turn Gold river council against me then I accept responsibility and probably deserve the consequences. I have no problem confronting any skeleton in my closet trying to rattle my chain. I give full consent for you to expose any letter or dirt on me that you may be concealing if you wish.
I hope your baby birds are doing well.


I've also included a copy of my river survey from Jan.
I also have decided not to post any of the email correspondence between ministry myself and ministry staff.


January 19, 2007

Dear Randy,

I am sending you input for the new regulations that are being proposed for the Stamp River. I conducted a survey January 15 and 16/07, while on the Stamp River fishing for brood stock, with the Ministry’s Mike McCoulgh. For this survey, I approached anglers in my jet boat and asked their opinions on the use of bait and jet boats above the bucket. Here are the results:

Jan.15th, 2007
• ?... ?....., 724-….. The evening of Jan 14th, David Murphy notified me to drop off a fish tube to ?... in the morning at Al Daniluc's, as ?... is fishing there every morning. ?... was in favor of the use of bait in the said area and was in favor of the boat reg. He said that he had his own boat suitable for the river but preferred to walk and fish from the shore. This he told us as he was standing in Al Daniluc's boat. ?... also stated that the one user he would like to see removed from the river was C……. O…... He expressed much dislike for this individual.
• In the Beaver Creek area, ?..... ?.?.... 724-….. ?..... was fly fishing up stream of the rifle range. He was against the use of bait, but is for the use of boats. He said you don't need roe to catch steelhead. He also said charter boats take a lot of less able people and other people who would not have normally gone steelhead fishing. He also said he could not understand how anyone could enjoy playing a fish while floating down the river in a boat anyway. A 20 pounder might as well be a four pounder because there is no drag from the current.
• ?.. ?......., (250) 339-….. ?.. was for the use of bait and did not have an opinion on boat fishing. He said he was not here enough to form an opinion on the boats.
• ?.... ?......, surrendered no phone number and was for the bait ban in that area. He felt that used with class, boat fishing was ok with him.
• ?. ?........, (604)985-….. He didn't have an opinion on the bait issue and said yes to boat fishing.
• In the Slide pool area, ?... ?.... 724-….. ?... said yes to bait use and yes to boat fishing. ?... started saying no to boat fishing and then, in mid sentence, figured the boat guys would be on land beside him and changed his mind.
• ?.... ?...... 701-….. Said yes to bait use and yes to boat use.
• ?... ?.... said yes to lifting the bait ban and yes to boat fishing. I believe ?.... and ?.... are from Vancouver. They are hard core fishing fanatics from way back. These last three also helped us catch a fair number of the fish we retained at the Slide pool.
• ?... ?...., no phone number. He fishes the falls pool and is in favor of bait use. He said yes to boat use, but would like to see if one pool could be jet boat free, so when he hikes down the hill he knows the pool is not being fished. He says, “I have watched people row to the island to where nobody could approach them and then slam em, on roe.” He felt that because the bait ban really is not enforceable, that everybody should be able to use roe. He also wants local guide ?... ?....., to not hover and fish in front of him or call him a bait flinger.

• ?... ?.., 250-758-….. ?... said he would like to see bait opened. He expressed that boats and guides are great, but ethical use and common courtesy goes a long way. ?... asked for my card because he had some family coming to the area and is hoping to show them some exceptional fishing.

• ?... ?...., 604-783-….. ?... and I had a fairly lengthy conversation. He was all for the use of bait and claimed he kept only a couple of steelhead per year to acquire roe. He was all for boats and guides and fully supported my cause. He also said that I would never win my quest because there is always going to be complaining. He says there is no amount of material or evidence proving common sense that can change these peoples minds and that when there through with me that they will just find another cause to fight.

Jan.17th, 2007,

• At the Slide Pool, ?.. ?....., 250-723-….. He wanted the bait ban lifted and figured boats fishing up top was not a big deal. Jim has been here fishing longer than me, (25+ years) and says yes, there have been a few shows where boat operators have pulled real boners and annoyed him, but nothing too severe.
• ?... ?...., 723-….. He was all for the use of roe and may have been the owner of the tub of it that was on the shore. He was in favor of the boat fishing regulation, expressing that there was enough water down below the bucket for the guides. Dan also has been fishing here as long as I have.
• At the Island, ?..-?.., 250-390-….. He is for bait and had no problem with boats.
• ?... ?...., 250-390-….. He is in favor of bait use and in favor of boat use.
• Falls pool, ?... ?.?...., 250-248-….. He was all for bait use and charter boats. He used to hire Jess Cowan who no longer guides any more. ?... after talking a while asked for my card and told me he might hire next week. For some reason he asked us if we knew C……. O….. and implied dislike for him.
• ?.. ?......, ?.. is a friend of ?...’s, I think, from Alberta. He was for the use of roe and o.k. with boat usage. What happened next was one of the most embarrassing boating experiences of my life. While leaving, Mike was trying to pull my stuck anchor and I had given a little gas so we could pull from an up stream angle. After hearing some squawking behind us I realized my engine was on tilt and I had just hosed down one of the guys I just interviewed! This was horrible. I begged for forgiveness. He should have made me pull out my survey book so he could change his opinion but didn’t. ?... called me later and booked me for a charter my next available day. He also told me he flipped his pontoon boat in the bucket after we were gone and went for a good ride.
• ?... ?......... was all for bait use and fine with boat fishing. I was already sure of this because ?... is a local guy and we’ve talked frequently in the past. ?... also brought up, at the gas station that morning, a real dislike for C……. O…...
• ?... ?....... says he would like to use bait here and has no problem with the charter boats. He saw me hose down ?... and said ?... kind of walked in behind me when I wasn’t looking. I agreed instantly of course.
• ?.... ?..., 250-751-….. He was for the bait ban in that area and all for charter boats. He felt charter boats are important to Port Alberni’s economy. He stated that charter boats, while creating a job, are assisting the public to access the fish that are hatchery raised for them to catch. In his opinion, bait was not needed to catch steelhead. ?.... has hired me a few times to take him and his son fishing for salmon and halibut in Ucluelet. He also instructed me in a first aid course 15 years ago. It was good to talk to him again.
• A few other anglers were seen but not spoken to on the river. ?.... ?......... was fishing at Swanson’s pool and is an employee of Nitinat hatchery. I spoke with ?. later that day and he was for the use of bait and charter boats above the bucket.
• ?... ?...... & friend, were fishing across from Beaver creek. ?... stands for the boats and no roe above the bucket. He told me that boat fishing helps free up shore spots and the lower areas are already crowded with other boats. His feelings about bait were sympathetic to the fish that ends up with a pin cushion mouth.
• ?... from Gone Fishing Outfitters, was with some friends at the ledge run. ?... has already put his name in favor of bait on my survey at the tackle store and says yes to boat fishing. Four other anglers were observed but not surveyed because we were transporting fish.

My findings were that 17 out of 20 people interviewed on the river were ok with boats above the bucket. Only 2 were against boats and 1 was undecided. As for bait usage, only 4 people interviewed were for the bait ban in this area, 16 anglers wanted the bait ban lifted. This clearly shows that 85% were in favor for boat usage and 80% want the bait ban lifted. These findings that were acquired in the field conflict with the M.O.E.’s internet survey findings. I told these people that I was a guide and I was defending my livelihood and they heard my side. Mike was there and able to present the ministry’s view. I assure you this survey was not staged.

Randy, this is the first river survey I have ever conducted. It was a great time talking to all the shore anglers and an excellent enlightenment of their views. My hat comes off to Mike McCoulgh. Although sporting different views, he always conversed in a professional manner. The ministry could have done a lot worse.

I had a blast fishing with Mike these days and I look forward to doing it again. I hope to and think I can improve the relationship between the ministry and the angling guides.

Sincerely, Ken Myers



Ken Myers



Dear Randy,

I have been putting some material together that may give you a different view towards the recent regulation changes.
A survey has been conducted in a few tackle stores. These surveys ask anglers about the new regulations in question. The stores chosen were ones that I figured would best expose this matter and reach a large amount of Stamp River anglers.
Bait use from the falls to the bucket surveys were placed in Gone fishing tackle Port Alberni and Nanaimo stores. So far 104 people responded. 82 anglers were in favor of bait usage. 22 anglers prefer the regs stay as they are.
Sea Run Tackle interviewed anglers on both subjects. So far 27 out of 32 want bait and 30 out of 32 were in favor of boat usage.
The river survey with the ministry’s own Mike McCullough resulted in similar findings, 17 out of 20 were ok with boat use and 16 out of the 20 wanted to see the bait ban lifted.
A total of 156 individual anglers input so far have resulted in: 125 out of 156 want the bait ban lifted. Out of 52 anglers asked about boats 46 of them were fine with boat usage. These findings show so far that 80% of the angler public are in favor of lifting the bait ban and 90% were in favor of boats above the bucket. The Gone fishing surveys did not ask about boat usage but I expect similar outcome.

In three weeks I have received input from 156 anglers so far. I expect much more soon and will keep you updated of the results.

I think if you would have asked for input in the winter, when users are fishing the river, your results would have showed the same as the feed back I have been getting.
Looking for feed back in the late spring and summer was probably not the best time to get comments on regulation change. It may be a good idea to have another look at this regulation. I don’t think it is too late for all of us to be on the same page.

This may be just one example of the ministry not working together. The province is spending huge dollars to promote and get more people fishing and the area managers are doing there best to slow down fishing growth. The Stamp would be a perfect example of this. There may not be a better example in the province where the public and commercial interests interact as well. We need to keep this river and the town we live in thriving. The 1000 people that are guided on this river every year is a huge revenue stream for the province and the city of Port Alberni. Also, remember that most of the people we guide are from British Columbia and we are catching are hatchery fish.

I look forward to as much dialogue on this subject as possible.

Kind regards,

Ken Myers
Licensed Guide
 
Quote; I also have decided not to post any of the email correspondence between ministry myself and ministry staff.

I ment to say email responses between myself and ministry staff. I do not wish to slander these people.


Dear Bob,

In response to your email last week. I do not understand how you find my river survey bias? You state that people surveyed on a river that had frequent boat usage would have a likely acceptance to them. If that was the case, how come the people surveyed angling in a river that had a large section with a bait ban in majority preferred the bait ban lifted? Your explanation of bias would lead me to believe that most of those people would accept the bait ban and agree with its application and this was not the case.
If the Ministry offers to the shore based public [ie.tax payer] a chance to eliminate a major source of competition for them [ie.fishing guides guiding tax payers] I would expect a similar outcome to the ministry's internet survey that was conducted and I am surprised that there was only 35 letters for this proposal.
Your survey last summer did not account for the years of happy customers fishing from boats who do not monitor the web for regulation change. It also doesn't take in to consideration less able bodied anglers that guides assist in accessing the fishing grounds. Do you think that these anglers that appose fishing from boats will like the guides more if we stand with our guests on the shore beside them and crowed the best shore areas?
In your email you stated that the falls to the bucket was a small portion of the river. In total kilometers this may be, but email confirmation from Mike McCullough informed me that 95% of the fish observed during 2007 snorkel survey were observed from the falls to the bucket. Mike McCullough also stated that a significant amount of hatchery fish was figured to run the Sproat River. Base on catch results I would assume that approximately 25% of the total hatchery return to the area runs up the Sproat River. Of the maybe 12 pieces of fish holding water in the Sproat only 2 are not reachable from shore but 5 are not reachable by boats the rest are shared by both groups. This area shows to have better or at least equal opportunity for the shore based anglers.
The Ministry has expressed rezoning of tax payer raised fish being harvested dominantly by guides in power boats. The shore based anglers [ie.tax payers] I've talked to, have had no problem filling out there punch card this year. Lots of them report of releasing many more hatchery fish than they are allowed to retain. Most of my guests [98% BC residents and tax payers] commonly fish only two to four days per year with me. They might keep their limit but usually don't. These people pay the same hefty fee for a license and stamp as the shore guys but use the resource way less. How do you figure that these boat based anglers are getting an unfair amount of the fish? The guide’s aren’t the ones getting all of the fish. The guide drives the boat and the guests catch the fish. The reasoning to these regulations does not make sense to me or any one I know outside of the ministry office. I personally feel that regulations should be made for reasons of economics, biology, and threatened stock protection and not please small user groups with social issues.
In my travels the majority of the anglers I see on shore smile and wave. They do not show any more opposition from my boat usage than if I walk past them on the shore. The high % of opposition to boats indicated in your survey is not a reality in the field.
I've herd ministry personnel refer to the Stamp guide fleet as the "Murphy jet boat rat race". Have you been to the Cowichan river drift boat rat race? Have you been to Stamp falls pool parking lot at first light? When you arrive there, anglers are waiting in there warm cars ready to jump out at the sign of another angler. They run down the hill hell bent to get the best rock to stand on. On the Gold River, it is the same thing. All around, in the real world, anglers are hustling around trying to increase there opportunities. It's seems to be the human nature.
My power boat enables me to, after 8-oclock, casually deal with what's left over after the morning rush. I do not fish in other angler’s drifts and I do not obstruct any other angler’s activities. My boat is my portable fishing spot. All of the refuse amounted throughout my day is contained and brought home with me. Many shore spots are littered with fishing junk and beverage containers. I would prefer to not expose my guests to this disrespect of our resource. Have you been to the Falls Pool parking lot? It's a mess!!! Mike McCullough took many pictures while fishing with me and I'm sure you know of this issue. Do you think the people that appose guide boats, park and use these spots frequently?
This regulation will eliminate successful guiding in this area and I'm afraid that this is the real intent of it.
After getting chewed out on the phone by you and the tone of your last email gives me the impression that you personally are against the Jet boat guide service on the Stamp River. There seems to be resentment that a guide has been found exempt from the 10hp restriction while defending, in a court of law, his ability to operate safely. If the person responsible for making regulation proposals is personally seeking these regulations, how can that be fair?
In respect to the two days Mike McCullough accompanied me on my river survey. Mike openly accepted the publics input at that time. How can you consider a ministry representative witnessing me collect public input inappropriate?
I can not understand why the Ministry will not accept my public input? It would seem that Bob Hooten is lord and what Bob wants he gets. How do I stand a chance? A simple letter to the guides prior to your input deadline would have at least given me a chance to defend my livelihood.
If my research proved to me that the majority of the public disapproved of my charter service I would not continue.

I request no reply to this email from you.

Sincerely,

Ken Myers
 
This is some of the stuff that a guide has to deel with to keep his job. The ministry responses have been removed.


Dear …..
You answered my last email with a … …… pep talk.
Could you please just answer the questions that I asked.

1. How does the Ministry calculate that the boat based tax payers are
getting a larger cut of the resource than the shore based tax payers?

2. Who is next in the chain of command as to witch I discuss this mater
further?

Sincerly, Ken Myers







Dear …..
….., I've now found the proposal that you displayed on the internet last summer.
As discussed on the phone you said that my river survey was bias because of the way I presented it.
I have included your proposal to this note.
30.
Stamp River
A dominant feature of the Stamp/Somass sport fishery is the extensive use of jet boats and drift boats. The Ministry has been besieged with complaints about the differential
application of motor restrictions and the competitive advantage afforded licensed angling guides. The application of a court ruling which exempted licensed angling guides from the horsepower restriction which formerly prevailed is the origin of the problem. Those anglers who do not qualify for the motor size exemption or don’t have boats complain bitterly about being squeezed into fewer and fewer areas and forced to contend with boats fishing mid-stream in some preferred locations. The only tools available to deal with fishing from boats under federal fisheries legislation
is “no fishing from a boat” or “no fishing from a power boat.” Motor size and speed restrictions and powerboat prohibitions are under the jurisdiction of Transport Canada and outside any direct Provincial fisheries influence. Given the Ministry’s objective of
restoring a level of fairness among all parties with an interest in angling the Stamp/Somass system it is proposed to eliminate angling from boats in the popular bank access area from the fishing boundary signs at Stamp Falls Park downstream to “Girl Guide Falls”. To increase access to and promote the harvest of surplus hatchery fish it isalso proposed to remove the bait fishing prohibition presently in place between Stamp Falls and “Girl Guide Falls

While reading this proposal I notice that you imply there is a problem. You state that the court has made things unfair and the only thing that is in your power to make things fair is to apply this regulation. You plead your case using phrases like, extensive use of jet boats, been besieged with complaints, advantage afforded licensed angling guides and restoring a level of fairness.
If that doesn,t creat a bias, before asking for input, than I do not understand that words meaning.
You also have said to me that you may make it a condition of the guide licence to not fish this area. If so than why is the ministry so against guiding in this area?
….. you told me on the phone that you are done answering my emails. I do not think it is fair that you turn your back on me and this situation. You area the area represenative that I have to supply input to. … …… stated that it is your task to accomidate the intrests of all anglers. I and my guests fit into this all catigory. Would, turning your back to us, not be a refusal to do your govt. appointed duties.
Please answer my emails.
Thank you, Ken Myers





Dear …..,



In regards to the proposed new regulations.

The ministry has expressed you would like to reallocate the number of
fish that are being caught on the Stamp. Less for the Jet boat guides and more for the shore based guys. These fish are raised and paid for by federal and provincial tax dollars. My customers are primarily BC residents and
they
should have just as much right to these fish as everyone else. They
contribute a hell of allot more and take less from resource than the guy standing on the shore.
The shore based anglers [also tax payers] I've talked to have had no
problem filling out there punch card this year. Many of them report they have been releasing many more hatchery fish than they are allowed to retain. Most of my guests [also taxpayers] commonly fish only two to four days per year with
me. They might keep their limit but usually don't. As I see it, my
guided tax payers pay the same hefty fee for a fishing license and a Steelhead stamp as the shore guys but use the resource way less.

Can you explain to me, for the record, how the Ministry calculates and figures that the boat based tax payers are getting an unfair or higher cut of the fish?

Can you also inform me who the next up in the chain of command is so
that I discuss this matter a little further?



Sincerely,



Ken Myers





Hi …..
A quick reminder of my last emails. If you are busy an answer from
….
or … would be acceptable.
1. ….. can you please explain to me what you seen last week that
convinced you that the guided tax payers are getting an unfair amount of the resource? How does the motor restriction create un fair allocation? Please explain.
2. Who assigned you the task of reallocating the resource? Perhapsthey have a form of calculation that would help me understand why my charter service is being restricted?
Once again, my apologies for such prying questions. I am defending my livelihood.These ongoing regulations continue to erode at my charter service
and I only wish to understand the rezoning in them.
Ken Myers




Dear, .....

..... I am still trying to understand your allocation theory. As you do not have any formal calculation for this method of deciding who is getting their fair share, I have done some calculations for you.

Yesterday, I took Mr. Robert Bertolas and Mrs. Suzanne Couchman fishing on the Stamp River. Robert is the man running across Canada to raise money for the Multiple Sclerosis Foundation you may have seen him on the news.

These two nonresident anglers informed me that they paid a total of $169.60 in required license fees for their afternoon outing. During this trip they managed to harvest one hatchery steelhead. This is the only opportunity that they will have to fish freshwater in B.C. this year.

If it cost $2 for the provincial government to raise a steelhead smolt and with an ocean survival rate 10% (in a perfect world), correct me if I'm wrong, they have paid for at least 8 steelhead. If they only harvested one fish this means they haven't received their fair share of the resource.

Furthermore, if I pay $450 above and beyond the regular taxpayers for a guide license, this fee should allot my guide business 22 hatchery Steelhead. This should not count for my guest’s fish. They have paid for their own resource allotment. Personally I've harvested 7.

I do know if my numbers are not correct. I aim to clarify this issue for the future with your help.

..... I need help filling in the blanks in this allocation issue. How many fish are the shore based anglers allotted as per fees received? How many fish do these shore based anglers harvest per year and where did they harvest them? What rivers are all the shore based anglers fishing? What if an angler fishes with a guide one day? What if an angler uses a boat for a few days to catch some fish? How many days per year do all these different anglers fish? Where does catch and release fit in to this formula? What about boats in other rivers? I do have many more questions that need to be answered. Randy, this is a very confusing subject for me and I need input from you to understand.

If you don't have any formal calculation for this allocation idea, than what are some of the criteria’s for eye balling it? Where does allocation get debated and how does any of this fit in with the provinces plan to get more anglers on the water. I don’t think my customers that fished with me yesterday would be walking trails or even buying a license in BC if it wasn’t for my service.
If you are to remove my guide service from the fishing grounds, I feel I deserve some form of accountability for it.
Sincerly, Ken Myers
 
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