HST or PST check out this link..too long for me to post

Oh yes. why consumption tax is better than income tax. Google it. http://www.investorguide.com/igu-article-1134-tax-basics-consumption-vs-income-tax.html

A consumption tax (also known as a cash-flow tax, expenditure tax, or consumed income tax) is levied on goods and services that are consumed. While an income tax is based upon income earned from labor or capital, a consumption tax is solely based upon
consumption. This may sound similar to a sales tax, but in its purest form a consumption tax will not become regressive as is the case with a pure sales tax. A consumption tax can be designed to be progressive if it includes the following features:

1.Exemptions
2.Graduated
3.Deductions
4.Rebates


Prior to the passage of the 16th Amendment to the Constitution, the United States primarily raised government revenues using consumption taxes. It took the passage of the 16th Amendment in 1913 to permit Congress to create income taxes because the Founding Fathers believed income taxes could be abused by persons in power.

A true consumption tax is nearly impossible to increase to excessive or punitive levels. These taxes are naturally limited because they will ultimately discourage economic activity when they become too high. Excessive consumption taxes affect the economy in three ways: by discouraging consumer spending, by decreasing business revenues and by lowering the amount of tax that can be collected when economic activity decreases.

Ideally, a consumption tax would only tax goods or services when consumed while leaving savings alone. Income tax, however, does tax savings because revenues are raised not only from labor (wages or salaries), but also from capital (interest, dividends, capital gains). So which system is superior?

Consumption vs. Income

Pure tax economists argue that a consumption tax is superior because it comes closest to attaining “temporal neutrality”. Although impossible to attain in reality, a tax would be considered to have attained temporal neutrality if it did not alter spending habits, change behavior patterns, or affect the natural allocation of resources. Because a consumption tax only taxes consumption, the good or service being consumed is largely irrelevant in reference to the allocation of resources.

An income tax, however, creates a barrier between the value of a person’s labor (how much they earn from working) and what they actually receive (money after taxes). This is a negative force on the economy because it causes people to work less and pursue more leisure activities than would otherwise be the case if income taxes did not exist. In other words, if there were no income taxes people would immediately see a real increase in purchasing power for each additional unit of time they spent working, and thus would be theoretically be more inclined to work. The barrier created by income taxes also produces less savings (because capital is taxed), reduces investment, discourages innovation, and ultimately contributes to a lower standard of living when compared to a pure consumption tax. To think of it another way, income taxes will actually cause greater consumption in the present while reducing future savings and future consumption.

A well designed consumption tax is more neutral and does not affect the allocation of resources as dramatically as an income tax. Taxes are only assessed on any income that is consumed (spent on goods, services, etc.) while not taxing savings. This eliminates any barrier to savings and actually would encourage people to save more, increase available capital, and ultimately produce a more solid, robust
 
Oh yes it does.. supply and demand that is what our social system is based on.. What do you think makes a stock or commodity go up?
More people want to buy than sell.. What makes it go down..more sellers than buyer.. You can see that every day in the realestate market. When prices go up there is inflation, due to more buyers than sellers.


Oil went down last week because the the US announced that it will tap into 60 milllion barrels of emergency oil reserve ro replace lost lybian oil production. Greater supply price goes down.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/24/business/24oil.html
Basic IMHO

I agree that supply and demand is the reason that markets go up and down, (I make my living as a financial advisor) but as far as the CPI index, a very small percentage of it is effected by supply and demand. People still need to eat, have a place to live, transportation, energy, etc. Even if people were buying less stuff, it's not because of the HST costing more than PST/GST, as 95% of the basket is the same amount of tax!

I'm not buying your argument that BC's CPI has not gone up as much as other provinces, because people stopped buying stuff.

Here's a link to StatsCan basket of goods that make up the CPI. The numbers indicate the percentage of the basket that each item contributes. http://www.statcan.gc.ca/imdb-bmdi/document/2301_D48_T9_V1-eng.htm
 
so in theory then, one does not have to consume less to pay less taxes, one only has to consume less of the things that are taxed, correct?....holmes*

I'll buy that.

However, other than the food that you prepare yourself, pretty well everything else is taxed.
 
NautiG: That was an especially well written post. Thank you, and well done. I haven't read the link you posted yet, but I will get there.

As I don't have the background, I certainly don't intend to debate the finer points of tax theory here. But I do know more about consumption tax now. Had no idea it could be graduated.

I don't entirely buy into the idea that it would be a panacea. Once the dust settled there would be a new equilibrium between earnings, taxes and prices, and John Doe would be in about the same position. But an interesting read nonetheless.
 
This HST issue isn't really about taxes.

This HST issue isn't really about taxes. It is about something far more sinister.

A TOTAL LACK of HONESTY.

Our somewhat functional society is based on trust. We call it civilization. We are fed the myth that we live in a democracy.

Are you prepared to accept a promise for a future watered down tax scam from a government that lied to the people.

I'm not.

Eastpoint
 
Someone please find me a politician who did not stretch the truth or lie directly to please a room full of people, a province, or a country? They are generally all public glory hounds and power hungry ego maniacs weraring different jerseys. No one should kid themselves on that.

Gordo was arrogant. Check. Gordo said the HST was not on the table (YET). Check.

The truth is that BC has been on a long term plan to reduce tax to become competitive with Alberta and Ontario. Has been for a long time. People and co's were leaving BC heading east and south and there was a drain on the economy due to high tax.

Personally I got sick of it and left for Alberta in 1999 when about a dozen large corps pulled out of BC to relocate their regional/head offices to Alberta. No sales tax, cheaper houses, much lower income tax (at the time). Taxes can be the deciding factor in where people and co's locate to. I love BC, but didn't move back until I could afford to, the tax was lower, and I got a decent job. It is the prce of housing that keeps people poor in BC. I think getting rid of property transfer tax and tax on capital gains would be a better protest goal than fighting HST. I'd jump on that bandwagon.

Back to Gordo. I think all tax savings or reduction measures were always on the table, but he knew he wasn't prepared to sell the HST yet and CRA (the fed tax man) had told all the provincial governments that Ontario was going to switch to HST (all the civilized world was going there and most think tanks, accounting bodies, and business groups were all lobbying for over 5 years to switch to HST). CRA told the provinces that in order to switch Ontario to HST they would be taking on about 800 Ontario tax department staff and would be very busy doing all the PR, and system changes, so no province could switch to HST until the dust settled about 4 years later. The Fed unions were freaking out about the seniority issues of taking on all those 800 Ontario staff etc. CRA then realized that if they were going through that much change and upheaval they might as well throw in another province and take on another 250 employees, so they can use the same process to integrate and train them all at once. Change management. Bulk.

The fact that at that moment every government in the west was seeing their revenues drop like a stone was the kicker. Forestry revenue was beyond hope, and most revenue streams were going down about $10 million per month below projections. Panic....."What, you will give BC over a billion dollars to do the HST now instead of in 4 yrs. OK, sure. The public loves me. I can do no wrong and save the day with a bag of cash instead of having to slash and burn the social programs and take away the Olympics. Taking away the Olympics would be a serious tourism and PR black eye that would stain the province for years (besides I love those mittens)." Everyone has seen that before in other embarassed cities. Stroke the ego, stroke the ego. Gordo is superman. People will love him. OK Jump off the building and try to fly with that heavy bag of money. Splat goes Gordo.

He took a big political chance and failed. Everyone knows it.

That doesn't mean that HST is bad. It means he was arrogant and pushed the limits of political smarts by doing too much, too fast, without the consultation that BC demands. The government has now consulted and has proposed changes to make the HST more palatable to taxpayers. Forget Gordo.

Regardless of who is in charge, instability scares business away. Changing tax rates, tax structures, exemption rules, leaders, and governments too often makes business wary of dealing there.

There is a plan. It makes sense. Stick to it. (sorry for the pun)
 
The race to offload the tax burden on the little guy continues. It is working well to the south of us, isn't it? The trickle down model, isn't that what they call it. It must be a good thing to fire all those rotten teachers, firemen, policemen and other lazy money grubbers. The race to catch up to our cousins to the south continues.
PS Pretty hard to compete economically with Alberta as they are sitting on that huge mountain of oil, but do you really want to live there?
 
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This HST issue isn't really about taxes. It is about something far more sinister.

A TOTAL LACK of HONESTY.

Our somewhat functional society is based on trust. We call it civilization. We are fed the myth that we live in a democracy.

Are you prepared to accept a promise for a future watered down tax scam from a government that lied to the people.

I'm not.

Eastpoint

This is about the HST! It is not about loving the government, admiring their integrity or anything about personalities!

Who do you really think you are punishing by voting down the HST? If you vote down the HST, the government still has a mandate to govern. They are fighting for their jobs and time is what they hope will make people forget. They aren't going to call an early election unless they think they can win it. The rumor is if they have a positive result on the HST that they may call an early election. That's when you make your point about lack of honesty!

If you vote down the HST, you are the one who will continue paying 12% PST/GST! Personally I want to get the tax down to 10%. They are not going to be backing down on that after what they have gone through on the HST.

If you vote down the HST, the Liberals will still go to work the next day, collect their paycheck and accumulate their pension plan, but our economy will suffer as businesses are less competitive under PST versus HST.

A democracy means the ability to elect a government. It has never meant voting on a tax policy. When was the last time you were asked whether you approved of an income tax reduction? Yet we have received several over the last number of years making our income tax rate the lowest in Canada.

If you vote down the HST, the only message you will send to the government is telling them not to hold an early election. So they will wait till enough people forget and in 3 years they will win another election. Meanwhile our economy will suffer.
 
PS Pretty hard to compete economically with Alberta as they are sitting on that huge mountain of oil, but do you really want to live there?

The problem with that train of thought is; if Alberta is a more attractive place to conduct business, the business will move to Alberta. Whether you want to live there or not becomes irrelevant when your job moves...

With the HST in place we can compete with Alberta. That's because out tax rates for businesses become equal.
 
If you vote down the HST, you are the one who will continue paying 12% PST/GST!

.
That is where you are incorrect AF. We will go back to GST/PST on some goods, not kids bikes, helmets etc.
You will only be paying 5% on...
haircut
tune up on your boat engine or car for that matter.
the plumber to fix your dripping tap
the oil change in your car
the labour to put the new roof on your house
the real estate commission to sell your house. this alone for me will save me 1400 in taxes!

This adds up to a 7% saving on most things that I consume.

As for Alberta being a better place for business.. yes they are. They allow coal mines, they allow oil mines (yes they mine oil, that is what the oilsands do) They allow refineries. In BC no one wants that. You need to see the oppostion to the coal mine south of Comox Valley, which would give this area 400 full time good paying jobs.
 
The race to offload the tax burden on the little guy continues. It is working well to the south of us, isn't it? The trickle down model, isn't that what they call it. It must be a good thing to fire all those rotten teachers, firemen, policemen and other lazy money grubbers. The race to catch up to our cousins to the south continues.
PS Pretty hard to compete economically with Alberta as they are sitting on that huge mountain of oil, but do you really want to live there?
NOT really, but with the chite weather, chite govt.,chite fishing, comes: no fee health care for everyone, no PST, higher base wages, lower income taxes and cheaper housing!!!
 
I've calculated my costs under the HST. While it will cost me more for the next year or 2, the savings under 10% HST will be significant as I plan on a house sale/purchase and a vehicle purchase in the next 3 years. However, I plan on living a lot longer than the next 3 years, so over my lifetime the 10% HST will save me a lot!!

But it's not just about me... My kids and their kids will benefit from a strong BC economy and that's more important to me than the extra few dollars it will cost me in the short term.

That is where you are incorrect AF. We will go back to GST/PST on some goods, not kids bikes, helmets etc.
You will only be paying 5% on...
haircut My barber charges me the same today as he did under PST

tune up on your boat engine or car for that matter. My shop always charged PST/GST on the full bill

the plumber to fix your dripping tap I change the washers myself, same cost for washers under PST or HST

the oil change in your car Mr. Lube has always charged PST/GST on the whole bill

the labour to put the new roof on your house I do that every 25 years, have one due in a couple years so 10% will save me $300, if i haven't sold the house.

the real estate commission to sell your house. this alone for me will save me 1400 in taxes! I've never appreciated how a realtor gets paid more than $20,000 to sell a house. If you wait a few years you can save yourself $400 under the 10% HST

This adds up to a 7% saving on most things that I consume.

If the government needs the revenue, you and I will pay higher taxes or user fees! I'd prefer that when they pick my pocket, it will have a smaller impact on the economy, like under HST.

As for Alberta being a better place for business.. yes they are. They allow coal mines, they allow oil mines (yes they mine oil, that is what the oilsands do) They allow refineries. In BC no one wants that. You need to see the oppostion to the coal mine south of Comox Valley, which would give this area 400 full time good paying jobs.
 
The Federal government has been collecting personal income taxes on behalf of BC since the beginning of time... I've never heard the province complain that the cheques are late. Why would I worry about them suddenly mismanaging the HST. It's exactly the same department (CRA) that collects both income taxes and HST....

You will pay LESS under the 10% HST. Here's a little video to help with the calculations: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5bWFlBClBM
 
$20,000 used truck

12% HST - $2400

10% HST - $2000

12% PST/GST - $1400

Do you want some more math???
This is why, if i buy a 20,000 used truck, I will write down $12,000. I also ask any contractor for the CASH price, thus avoiding HST. Most times, they take it. This is what is referred to as 'driving the economy underground'. Its very easy to do.
Like everyone else, i look after number 1 first!

Another point - If it gets too good for big companies, what do you think will happen to our already stressed environment. More mines, more IPP's, more salmon farms etc.......
 
$20,000 used truck

12% HST - $2400

10% HST - $2000

12% PST/GST - $1400

Maybe this is why the anti-HST crowd is voting against the HST..... they don't own a calculator!! :D :D


Do you want some more math???
This is why, if i buy a 20,000 used truck, I will write down $12,000. I also ask any contractor for the CASH price, thus avoiding HST. Most times, they take it. This is what is referred to as 'driving the economy underground'. Its very easy to do.
Like everyone else, i look after number 1 first!

Isn't there something in the forum rules against promoting illegal activities?
 
As much as I have seen excellent arguements for and against the HST I have flashbacks of the GST debate when that was brought out. We all were led to believe that it was going to be good for the economy and produce many jobs and trickle down effects. The jury is still out on that one. At my age I have been fed so many sales pitches that I have to remain sceptical. I was planning on moving to BC and will admit that this is not the sole reason for not moving but it was one of the things that concerned me.
I do hope that all works out for the good of the people of BC as they definitely need some good news.
 
As much as I have seen excellent arguements for and against the HST I have flashbacks of the GST debate when that was brought out. We all were led to believe that it was going to be good for the economy and produce many jobs and trickle down effects. The jury is still out on that one. At my age I have been fed so many sales pitches that I have to remain sceptical. I was planning on moving to BC and will admit that this is not the sole reason for not moving but it was one of the things that concerned me.
I do hope that all works out for the good of the people of BC as they definitely need some good news.

Most economists will tell you that the implementation of the GST and free trade are 2 of the biggest reasons why Canada as an economy is doing so well. The GST was a replacement for the FST which added as much as 13% to the cost of every product produced in Canada. The FST like the PST was not refundable. Our export levels are at record levels partly because our products can be sold more competitively.

The Federal Conservatives sacrificed their political careers when they introduced the GST. The Federal Liberals campaigned on the fact the GST was terrible for the economy and they promised to eliminate the GST when elected. We know how that turned out! Apparently the Federal Liberals knew all along that the GST was a good tax but "lied" about that, so they could get elected... and then once elected kept the tax knowing people would lose their distaste for the GST in 4 years.

This was posted by NautiGirl and it is a worthwhile read on the GST/HST. http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/LOP/researchpublications/prb0705-e.pdf
 
"Maybe this is why the anti-HST crowd is voting against the HST..... they don't own a calculator!!"

My point is, that with a 12% GST/PST, i still only pay 7% tax on a 20,000 truck. You cant argue that, it is FACT.


"Isn't there something in the forum rules against promoting illegal activities? "

I wasn't promoting any illegal activities at all. Just merely making a point, but I guess you pro-HST guys don't like that argument. My guess is because 1- its true and you know it, and 2 - there is no defense to that, so you would rather not have it posted.
I find it kind of amusing that as soon as valid, real life points are brought up, you have nothing except for "HST is good for us."

How about this...... I am going to sell you my boat. It's worth $5000 dollars, not a penny more. I would like you to buy it off me for $5700, because if you did, that would be good for me! Does that make any sense? Why would you go for that?
That's my point. Why would I vote for HST, its the same thing.
 
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