HST or PST check out this link..too long for me to post
- Thread starter Islandgirl
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alwaysfishn
Member
Maybe that's why the guys on HuntingBC.ca are a lot easier on me..... 
Public Affairs Lacky. Im sure you can find another more appropriate forum for your Bovine Excriment! It aint always about you !
Steelhead S2
Active Member
I'm still scratching my head here. I thought one of the best parts of the HST promise was job creation. Now that that promise has fallen apart it's about GDP. This moving target is starting to feel a bit like WMD in Iraq! Maybe it really is all about a tax shift. I'm not really buying the "it's good for you, just trust us" arguments.
If it's not about jobs, and it is about shifting taxes from business to families, then why should I, as a family man and not a business man, support the HST? Sounds like it's bad for me.
Truly, still undecided.
If it's not about jobs, and it is about shifting taxes from business to families, then why should I, as a family man and not a business man, support the HST? Sounds like it's bad for me.
Truly, still undecided.
TenMile
Well-Known Member
Well, job creation and provincial economic fortunes are impacted by many variables, not just the HST. Job creation is directly tied to GDP growth over the long run. Any economic factors that lowers the cost of sales for a business, makes them more competitive, increases their profits and investment and allows them to invest in growth and hire more workers.
That said, there are outside mitigating factors (such as massive unemployment in the US, global credit market meltdowns etc...) that also have a substantial impact on the GDP of BC and Canada. These outside factors are beyond our control as a province. The HST however is a taxation policy that we can directly control, that lowers the cost of doing business in BC (by eliminating compound taxation of business inputs) and in the long run, has a net positive benefit for the province -- just like over the long term, the GST have provided Canada with a net positive benefit.
It's meaningless to relate short term job growth, or job loss to the HST as there are so many factors that impact whether our economy expands or contracts. As a citizen of the province, I want to see every measure in place to boost our economic fortunes and I am convinced that eliminating our antiquated PST taxation system and replacing it with the HST helps in this regard.
So to answer your question -- as a family man in BC -- you might pay higher taxes under the HST. Will it amount to much -- in some situations yes, in most situations no, and for some people they will pay less. On the average, the hard dollars you pay will be about the same. For the province, it means a more competitive business environment over the long run, which should lead to growth in the number of jobs, an increase in consumption of goods and services and increased taxation revenues to fund healthcare, education, roads, etc.... which you as a family man use today.
That said, there are outside mitigating factors (such as massive unemployment in the US, global credit market meltdowns etc...) that also have a substantial impact on the GDP of BC and Canada. These outside factors are beyond our control as a province. The HST however is a taxation policy that we can directly control, that lowers the cost of doing business in BC (by eliminating compound taxation of business inputs) and in the long run, has a net positive benefit for the province -- just like over the long term, the GST have provided Canada with a net positive benefit.
It's meaningless to relate short term job growth, or job loss to the HST as there are so many factors that impact whether our economy expands or contracts. As a citizen of the province, I want to see every measure in place to boost our economic fortunes and I am convinced that eliminating our antiquated PST taxation system and replacing it with the HST helps in this regard.
So to answer your question -- as a family man in BC -- you might pay higher taxes under the HST. Will it amount to much -- in some situations yes, in most situations no, and for some people they will pay less. On the average, the hard dollars you pay will be about the same. For the province, it means a more competitive business environment over the long run, which should lead to growth in the number of jobs, an increase in consumption of goods and services and increased taxation revenues to fund healthcare, education, roads, etc.... which you as a family man use today.
alwaysfishn
Member
I'm not sure why you suggest that HST isn't about jobs.... Even if you bought what the Federation of Labor is saying about job losses in June, you need to question how you can take a tax policy that has been in effect for 1 year and look at job numbers for only 1 month. Wouldn't it make more sense to look at job numbers over the same year period? You also need to compare job creation in the other provinces over that same period to give it perspective.
The HST doesn't shift the tax burden over to the consumer. The consumer has always paid all of the tax burden. Think about it... If the consumer didn't have to pay any tax at the till, then the businesses would have to pay all the tax. If the businesses had to pay all the tax, they would just raise their prices to include the cost of the tax. In the end the consumer would be paying the same price.
But if that was the case, our businesses wouldn't be able to sell product anywhere but in BC because their products wouldn't be competitive outside of the province.
Ultimately government tries to balance the taxes business pays with taxes the consumer pays so that the consumer isn't overwhelmed, yet so BC businesses can competitively sell our products outside of BC.
I believe that people that vote for the HST will do so because they want businesses in BC to be successful in spite of the fact it will cost us a bit more in tax. (Less when it is lowered to 10%)
The people that vote against HST will do so because they are concerned about the extra tax they will be paying, and either don't know or don't care about the negative effect PST/GST has on BC business.
Good luck with your decision.
R
rico
Guest
Looks to me like businesses were successfull before the HST.
Quote "If the consumer didn't have to pay any tax at the till, then the businesses would have to pay all the tax."
That's exactly it. The businesses are paying less tax, and the consumer will be paying more tax. It is a shift of taxes from business to consumers. I am taxed enough as it is. The businesses aren't going to hire more people, in some cases they might. The owners are going to have more money in their accounts, and i will have less. I want to be more competitive with the funds i have available to me, and i dont care about making some other dude rich with my money.
Quote "If the consumer didn't have to pay any tax at the till, then the businesses would have to pay all the tax."
That's exactly it. The businesses are paying less tax, and the consumer will be paying more tax. It is a shift of taxes from business to consumers. I am taxed enough as it is. The businesses aren't going to hire more people, in some cases they might. The owners are going to have more money in their accounts, and i will have less. I want to be more competitive with the funds i have available to me, and i dont care about making some other dude rich with my money.
alwaysfishn
Member
Re-read my post. When the businesses pay less tax they pass that saving on to the consumer because it results in more sales for the business. So you will save on the cost of the product.
As far as the argument that businesses are not going to pass on the savings and the business will not be successful if it doesn't pass on the savings.... Basic rules of economics dictate they will pass on the savings. Have you ever bought a new car? If you are like most consumers you check with different dealers and end up buying from the dealer that offers the best deal. Why do all the gas stations lower their prices to match the lowest gas price on the block? Successful Businesses will always cut their prices to get the sale yet make a reasonable profit so they can pay the employees and keep the business running. If they don't some other business will get the sale. The owners that pocket the extra money will stop getting sales and eventually go out of business.
PST adds cost to the business's products which effects the competitiveness of their product when they sell it out of the province. HST does not add to the cost of the products, allowing them to sell them for less. They will then sell more product and hire more employees to produce that product. Whether you choose to believe it or not, that's how economics works.
Just like in the earlier post. Gravity always works in the same way, whether you choose to believe it or not.
Ignoring the negative effect of the PST on businesses could jeopardize your job.
R
rico
Guest
Once the 'tax shift' idea was not well received bt the public, it has shifted to fear mongering now by saying that if i dont accept the hst, i may lose my job. My job was just fine under the pst, and now i may lose it if i dont vote for the hst?
The gov't sold it as a tax shift from business, to families. That's how i look at it. Both sides have decent points, and i'm not sure that both sides are being fully truthful. I have to look at it from a standpoint of 'how does it affect me and my family?' If i look at it that way, it's a no brainer. I dont want to pay more.
The gov't sold it as a tax shift from business, to families. That's how i look at it. Both sides have decent points, and i'm not sure that both sides are being fully truthful. I have to look at it from a standpoint of 'how does it affect me and my family?' If i look at it that way, it's a no brainer. I dont want to pay more.
trendsetter
Active Member
The whole problem with this HST debate is that there is a debate at all. The only problem here is how it was introduced by the Liberals, not the fact that it was introduced at all.
Not to sound condescending but since when does the general public have the required skills and eduction to determine economic policies for a multi-billion dollar enterprise such as the province of BC? The majority of people do not. That is why we elect people to manage the finances and make these sorts of economic decision for us.
Should we have a province wide vote for every taxation or funding change the government makes? Guess how much money that would cost the taxpayers and guess how effective that would be....
Trying to explain the economic benefits that all british columbians get from harmonized tax is pointless. It's a complex process involving many, many, layers of the economy and is not as simple as "I pay more for a haircut". Most people don't care and all they here is people say "you will have to pay more tax".
Given the choice, pretty much everybody would choose to pay less tax in the short term. It's the long term benefits, jobs, lower personal tax rates and economic output that will suffer if we go back to the PST/GST system.
But we are where we are; if you want to "pay less tax" when you purchase items...choose to keep the HST because it will be reduced to 10%. The alternative is to go back to what we had before, forfeit all the benefits of the HST and pay the same 12% we already paid on the majority of items.
Anyhow...I'd rather be fishing....
Not to sound condescending but since when does the general public have the required skills and eduction to determine economic policies for a multi-billion dollar enterprise such as the province of BC? The majority of people do not. That is why we elect people to manage the finances and make these sorts of economic decision for us.
Should we have a province wide vote for every taxation or funding change the government makes? Guess how much money that would cost the taxpayers and guess how effective that would be....
Trying to explain the economic benefits that all british columbians get from harmonized tax is pointless. It's a complex process involving many, many, layers of the economy and is not as simple as "I pay more for a haircut". Most people don't care and all they here is people say "you will have to pay more tax".
Given the choice, pretty much everybody would choose to pay less tax in the short term. It's the long term benefits, jobs, lower personal tax rates and economic output that will suffer if we go back to the PST/GST system.
But we are where we are; if you want to "pay less tax" when you purchase items...choose to keep the HST because it will be reduced to 10%. The alternative is to go back to what we had before, forfeit all the benefits of the HST and pay the same 12% we already paid on the majority of items.
Anyhow...I'd rather be fishing....
R
rico
Guest
That was very well written. I agree, the average Joe shouldn't have to be the one to decide economic policies for the province. I am an average Joe, and believe me, regardless of which way I vote, it doesnt mean that i actually knew what i was doing. I'm just a resident of BC, and that entitled me to one vote, for something I understand nothing about.
Alwaysfishn brought some very good points forward in favour of the HST, and some good points were brought against the HST as well.
I must admit, almost all that I know about the HST I learned from this thread. I definately think the BC government screwed this up in the biggest way possible. I'm sure we can all agree on that.
Alwaysfishn brought some very good points forward in favour of the HST, and some good points were brought against the HST as well.
I must admit, almost all that I know about the HST I learned from this thread. I definately think the BC government screwed this up in the biggest way possible. I'm sure we can all agree on that.
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