Halibut! What do you want?

I'm still baffled by those who assert that there's somehow an "open door" to further movement on the quota allocation or that the 3% shift is the first of many steps to more and more quota reallocated to the rec sector. I've been thinking a lot about this and have asked a few times on my various posts if anyone can point to any precedents within DFO's recent management regime or more importantly Mr. Harper's Conservative majority government. Thus far no response or examples. So, instead, what if we apply some simple logic to the issue: To start, I'll ask these questions, is no one curious at all about 1) why DFO has not shown where the 3% quota reallocation came from or 2) why the commercial sector has been absolutely quiet about this whole thing - wouldn't we expect at least a little fuss raised if quota was taken from them as a group or a sub-set of the slipper skippers?

Those conspicuously unanswered questions combined with the fact 3% so neatly fits within both the acceptable catch estimation error and the annual variation in Canada's performance in regard to our IPHC TAC has me convinced that the 3% was chosen as it's a painless fudge factor with no "cost" to the commercial sector. The same can't be expected for any future movement and thus the "open door" or "many small steps" theories defy simple logic. Consider these simple economic facts - World population has passed 6 billion people and is on the way to 8 billion by 2050, which means a massive increase in global demand for protein. Global fish stocks are universally declining, with increased population we can only expect that to worsen. Best case scenario is for a well managed Pacific Halibut fishery that maintains it's abundance. So, massive increase in demand and decreasing supply, or static at best = massive increase in value. Do you really think the commercial sector is going to give any of that up without a fight? We all know the resources at the disposal of the likes of Jimmie P when that fight happens. How much do you think they'd love to have the recs show that they can sacrifice and make 85/15 work to have in their quiver for that fight?

Now lets apply the same logic to the rec sector - while BC's population is not going to rise as fast as the world at large, our population is going to increase and our new immigration policies will ensure the new folks are either rich or skilled enough to make money, which equates to being able to afford to join the ranks of salt chuck fishermen. Thus, the same stats apply - increasing demand or pressure on the resource, a decreasing or static supply (barring scratching out a percent here or there) and all we have to do is look south of the border to see what kind of access you have when you have lots of fishermen for limited available fish.

I've stated many times I'm a pessimist, but none of this is a stretch of facts or logic. This is why I'm adamant that making an ITQ system work is the wrong approach. The rec sector started out this halibut fight unified around the principle that getting rid of the ITQ/slipper skipper system and guaranteeing access for Canadian citizens was what we wanted. I'm a firm believer that such an approach is the only resolution that will guarantee our access isn't continually whittled down as angler and stock numbers change.

Competent Politicians wouldn't hurt either.
 
You ask some good questions...most cannot be answered on a open forum, as it could possiable tip the hands of thoses involved in the process. The gerneral public has to " believe" that thoses that are involved in the process do have your have your backs and for every door opened or closes a new direction comes and is acted on.... This is not a simple or easy process and there are dozens good folks that have invest 1000's of hrs in the process to get it were we are now.....as a sport fisherman myself and having many great friends in the sportfishing industry we all need to stand together ...15% and working on more...... ;)
 
You ask some good questions...most cannot be answered on a open forum, as it could possiable tip the hands of thoses involved in the process. The gerneral public has to " believe" that thoses that are involved in the process do have your have your backs and for every door opened or closes a new direction comes and is acted on.... This is not a simple or easy process and there are dozens good folks that have invest 1000's of hrs in the process to get it were we are now.....as a sport fisherman myself and having many great friends in the sportfishing industry we all need to stand together ...15% and working on more...... ;)

Deryk,

I think you've missed the point of his post. We didnt get anything . The 15% means SFA. ITs smoke and mirrors and you know it.

Respectfully, I heard the "we cant discuss this on an open forum" from you or someone in that group last year. And well here we are. (not from a lack of trying i am fully aware)

Now we've had another one of these "private meetings" between guides and lodges, and your recommendations are to give in to the current TAC and make it work with slot limits and a lowerd catch rate which is unacceptable IMO and is trying to pose BS limitations to extend the season a bit so guides and lodges can book more trips.

SO based on that, as that is the only thing i can, the "we got your backs" statement doesnt fly with me. How is lowering 300,000 anglers limit half way through and telling us what size fish we can catch so that G/O can bank a few more bucks "having our backs"? I know you are trying, and im not taking away from all the effort put forth so far. Dont get me wrong. But this is a HUGE step in the wrong direction my friend and frankly is a slap in the face. I understand I am a big mouth and not helping the cause I get that. And im sorry but i call it as i see it. So pm me or email me or something with a real plan or "the big picture" cause me and many others are missing it obviously.
 
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Cool. Well good luck with everything I will be at my local sfab meeting flipping out about how ******** this is and how we have been "had" and working towards "real" solutions that have EVERYONES best interest in mind.
And i challenge any other rec guy to do the same. Enough of this towing the line ********. Get out there and BE HEARD.

What a crock of ****.


Lorne

And if it isnt obvious why i am so livid about this. The current allocation is 85/15. Out of that 15 roughly 70% is caught by guides and lodges. leaving 300,000 anglers with 4.5% of the total allocation. Which is obviously getting the shaft, but not my reason for raging.

My reason for raging is Now you are going to tell me that in that small percentage you are purposing that we go to a slot and a 1 to 1 later so you can (guides and lodges) further extend into OUR 4.5%. Open your eyes boys.......

For fack sakes some one step up and shut me up and tell me how we arent getting screwed here!.

We are all waiting@!
 
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Lorne, get involved in the process. You will get an education for sure. This isn't as simple as you feel it is. Derby is 100% correct, and there are many folks working long hours on your behalf to do exactly what you suggest - but it must be done tactfully....and yes, most has to be done behind the scenes. But, please get involved in the process...democracy is decided by those who show up.

There are two things we need to focus upon for the immediate term. First as I have put out there is we need to find a solution for this season that allows us to work within what we know today. All the brave words, protests etc are not going to change it one little bit in time for your hali season. Think back at how long it took to get this far - if you can even call the 3% a win. Change happens S L O W L Y when it comes to fish politics. Don't take my word on it, ask around to those who have been in the game even longer than I. If we fish the 1 and 2 we will use up our quota by August some time and every one of the recreational anglers will lose the best month for fishing and weather. For many anglers they book time in August because it offers a lot in terms of overall experience and opportunity. The opportunity to catch a hali will be gone sadly if we do not work together now while we have time to make regulations changes. That window will be gone in 2 weeks.

As for second part - yes we need to ramp up all efforts to address the whole ITQ issue. It will be a long battle. We have to be very careful as to which options we exercise and when...up to and including litigation. Litigation as I have stated needs to be a final tool in the tool kit for reasons I have stated previously - but we should never rule it out - its like having a nuke and making sure you weigh out the ramifications of using it prior to launching the birds. I fully support a number of the long term ideas that have been bandied about here - we just need to deal with the immediate issues this season challenges us with.

One day if you have enough beers and time we can talk all about it - I certainly can't do the situation justice on an open forum.
 
Cool. Well good luck with everything I will be at my local sfab meeting flipping out about how ******** this is and how we have been "had" and working towards "real" solutions that have EVERYONES best interest in mind.
And i challenge any other rec guy to do the same. Enough of this towing the line ********. Get out there and BE HEARD.

What a crock of ****.


Lorne

And if it isnt obvious why i am so livid about this. The current allocation is 85/15. Out of that 15 roughly 70% is caught by guides and lodges. leaving 300,000 anglers with 4.5% of the total allocation. Which is obviously getting the shaft, but not my reason for raging.

My reason for raging is Now you are going to tell me that in that small percentage you are purposing that we go to a slot and a 1 to 1 later so you can (guides and lodges) further extend into OUR 4.5%. Open your eyes boys.......

For fack sakes some one step up and shut me up and tell me how we arent getting screwed here!.

We are all waiting@!

Lorne I appreciate your passion I think you need to direct it efficiently to have any effect. Showing up to SFAB meetings to stomp your feet and make noise is actually really counter productive. Time after time these types of meetings deteriorate because they turn into big ***** fests. I understand people want action NOW but its not how the system works.

And don't let this become a guide/lodge versus average joe angler issue, that just makes us divided and you know how the old saying goes. I don't have the answers either, so maybe its a bit hypocritical to say anything but I do know you won't reinvent the political wheel. There's a system in place and you HAVE to play by their rules.
 
Point taken but the article as a whole stressed the impact on the local economy.
Tourism is a very important industry and most places don't have anything close to what we have.
I don't have the numbers in front of me but there was a study taken on the value of each pound of halibut.
Commercials was 6 to 8 bucks a pound
Recreational was 30 or 40 bucks a pound.
(If someone remembers the numbers please post)
You tell me who has a greater impact on the local economy.
GLG

GLG we really going down this road. How do you put a value on the rec caught fish when you have no idea how much is being taken. Also why does the rec fish include hotels, flights, blah blah but you take the vessel price for the commercial side? Put apples to apples. Last I looked it is close to $25/lb for commercial fish in the store and over $50/lb in some restaurants.
 
Lorne, get involved in the process. You will get an education for sure. This isn't as simple as you feel it is. Derby is 100% correct, and there are many folks working long hours on your behalf to do exactly what you suggest - but it must be done tactfully....and yes, most has to be done behind the scenes. But, please get involved in the process...democracy is decided by those who show up.

There are two things we need to focus upon for the immediate term. First as I have put out there is we need to find a solution for this season that allows us to work within what we know today. All the brave words, protests etc are not going to change it one little bit in time for your hali season. Think back at how long it took to get this far - if you can even call the 3% a win. Change happens S L O W L Y when it comes to fish politics. Don't take my word on it, ask around to those who have been in the game even longer than I. If we fish the 1 and 2 we will use up our quota by August some time and every one of the recreational anglers will lose the best month for fishing and weather. For many anglers they book time in August because it offers a lot in terms of overall experience and opportunity. The opportunity to catch a hali will be gone sadly if we do not work together now while we have time to make regulations changes. That window will be gone in 2 weeks.

As for second part - yes we need to ramp up all efforts to address the whole ITQ issue. It will be a long battle. We have to be very careful as to which options we exercise and when...up to and including litigation. Litigation as I have stated needs to be a final tool in the tool kit for reasons I have stated previously - but we should never rule it out - its like having a nuke and making sure you weigh out the ramifications of using it prior to launching the birds. I fully support a number of the long term ideas that have been bandied about here - we just need to deal with the immediate issues this season challenges us with.

One day if you have enough beers and time we can talk all about it - I certainly can't do the situation justice on an open forum.

I get it guys! I understand it takes along time. AS usual my emotion might be clouding the way i convey my message. It took us a few YEARS to get this small change to 15%, But my making these concessions of the slot and the 1 and 1 how on earth does that benefit the long term? there is no way you can spin it to make beleive that for the LONG TERM that you keep referring to this is a good thing. What this will do (and if it doesnt ill eat my words) is sets a precedence that we are happy with the 15% and we will make it work. If you do this. we can talk all we want about how we need more. then the DFO ottawa will say no you dont you guys made it work with slot and the 1 to 1. So you know what, 2013 will be the same 85/15 but now it will be normal that we have the slot and 1 to 1.

P.s ITQ is here to stay.I think its BS but it is what it is. IMO its alot easier to focus on the structure the of the system then the whole system itself. Dont reinvent the wheel i guess is the way to put it. We need to focus on getting more of the ITQ because they arent ditching the system anytime soon that i can see.

Why would the DFO want to give us more if we can make th 15% work by making concessions? This isnt rocket science that you make it out to be. By doing this LONG TERM we are going to get the screws put to us.

I am a bit more calmer now after a few vodka's

Lorne
 
GLG we really going down this road. How do you put a value on the rec caught fish when you have no idea how much is being taken. Also why does the rec fish include hotels, flights, blah blah but you take the vessel price for the commercial side? Put apples to apples. Last I looked it is close to $25/lb for commercial fish in the store and over $50/lb in some restaurants.

I see it as nearly impossible to put apples to apples on this issue, firstly because there are no real numbers that are used to account for the amounts of fish caught per season by the recreational anglers for halibut. But more importantly is the two fisheries are completely different, the only things that are similar in the two is that boats are used in both and the fish are the same.

The recreational fisher goes out in a boat that typically holds 2 - 6 people ( i know about the "Puker Boats", but how many times do they come back with all on board catching fish???? not very often), the typical boat of anglers goes out there and if they are really sucessful and limit out they will be coming back with 32# to 100# of Halibut based on the average size fish for the 2011 IPHC AREA 2B Survey being 16# per fish (actually 16.18lbs).

The average commercial boat goes out there and if the skipper is worth his salt, they will haul in literally 1000's of pounds of fish per day, they have perfected the methods of fishing to make it as efficient as possible to capture as many pounds as possible with the least amount of effort and as quickly as possible.

So the impact on the fish stocks and also the impact on the local economies is completely and absolutely different, you would be comparing apples to peaches.

I believe that if we had true and real numbers for the amount of Halibut really caught by the recreational fishery and related those numbers to the amount of monies spent by residents and visitors to target Halibut, I think that you would find that per pound of halibut brought to the dock, the recreational fishery would definately contribute way more dollars and stability to the economy because of the broad diversity of the numbers of people and numbers of boats trying to catch those fish, and the pure inefficiency of the effort to catch ratio of the recreational sector.

But today we don't "really Know" the real numbers because,,,, THERE ARE NO REAL NUMBERS TO DATE! - THEY ARE ALL JUST GUESTIMATES!!!!!!
 
I have a feeling that goes along the lines as Ukee put it. And therefore I am upset with this 85/15 deal. It's a shady decision in a screwed up system. There is really nothing positive in it for us. And I do NOT agree with any restrictions to make this BS work "this year". I then rather quit in August. I do realize that this is easier for me than others.

And Clipper, I unfortunately cannot name you any competent politicians off top of my head, but there have got to be some somewhere!? One thing I know though, keep voting for the ones we know are incompetent is NOT very smart and helpful!
 
i believe nathan cullen is a good guy, but i havent met him personally yet....catherine bell was a great politician mp for van isle north, i believe jack layton was a good guy....i will sy it again, how can we as the rec sector be so greedy and disrespectful to our fellow rec anglers that dont get to fish for hali until mid august because thats the only time they could get a booking for either a charter or accomodations or both, or thats the only time they could take time off work?, im sorry but i think its kind of selfish to say that you wont curtail your catch because you dont want to deal with what we have to work with, cmon man, not dealing with what we have a saying screw it hurts your fellow canadians and other visiting rec anglers by denying them the opportunity to come and enjoy our wonderful coast, its not only about guides and lodges, look at the bigger picture....do i like it?..HELL NO...its crap, but ive been thinking about it the last few days, and for us to garner more support for the long term goals, we need these ppl to come and experience the fishery and get hooked on it and we will build numbers for the cause, if they cancel their trips because there isnt any halibut available because the rest of us were greedy, would do more harm than good....think about it.....holmes*

Cam, guides and lodges usually dont have a tough time filling there schedules in mid august. Any guide thats worth his salt is busy starting in june. How is making this concession good for anything LONGTERM. It is the complete opposite of that. This partial solution is so short sighted that is going to have un real snowball effects longterm., and that is what inferiates me! Wanna talk about selfish. How bout limiting the catch for MOST of the rec anglers so a select few can make more money. Cause the truth of the matter is all of us ( rec boys) will go fill our freezers in before august with the current allocation.Then we can protest fish, keep writing letters and flipping out. it got us 15% lets keep the ball rolling! Sure there will be some people that cant fish, because they only get one week off a year yada yada. However that is very minimal in comparison to the possible lost revenue to G/O. And i feel for you guys i really do. But putting the screws to the guys that write your cheques is not the answer. I have 2 charters booked with 2 seperate outfits on this board. Both of which have recieved $1500 deposits from me. IF i foudn out that they publicly supported this, that would be last my booking i can guarentee you. The reason for installing the slot. it is to book more trips. The little guy was not involved and is not be considered by that decision. You dont have to look very far but it is not the joe angler in the tin boat. By doing this slot and lower limit, it might get us to september, maybe, but maybe not as there is no real accountability for our catch so the dfo can say whatever they want and shut us down whenever they want because we dont have a leg to stand on. What if they shut us down in June hypothetically? how can we prove them wrong that we havent fished our quota? we cant. And they like it that way. If it stays open till sept its because they wanted it too. It would have zero to do with a slot or anything.

I know you saw this already but i thought it was pretty relevant

395571_10150815301796562_603656561_12326983_1164198839_n.jpg


Ive asked this question on 3 different threads now and yet to get an answer.

How is installing a slot limit and a lowered catch rate for this season beneficial to our long term fight?
 
I alos wanted to add, that i wish no bad will against guides and outffiters. There are quite a few in the industry i would call friends. And i truly feel for you. This is your lively hood at stake and if the shoe was on the other foot I maybe able to see it a bit differently. I am not sure if that was clear. But we have to stand together. However biting the hand to that feeds you is not the answer.

I feel as i was mislead this entire time supporting something that was in the best interest of everyone, fighting for the greater cause, Only to find out with these recent actions IMO that was not the case. And no one has stepped up to prove me wrong. This is my issue.

Lorne
 
What I Want ??

i wanna get on the ferry today , get the gear set for tmrw am , drop the hook , and beat the livin crap n be jeeeezuzzz outta
my first Hali (s) of the season with my best friends !!!! , Guess what ? thats what ima gonna do !!

all this crap is drivin me nuts man !!!

just get out there and fish man !!! HOLY $hit.....

: )

FD
 
What I Want ??

i wanna get on the ferry today , get the gear set for tmrw am , drop the hook , and beat the livin crap n be jeeeezuzzz outta
my first Hali (s) of the season with my best friends !!!! , Guess what ? thats what ima gonna do !!

all this crap is drivin me nuts man !!!

just get out there and fish man !!! HOLY $hit.....

: )

FD


Yes ..Let's get out and enjoy our fishery.... :)
 
Holmes, I wish I could share your optimism. But just like GST or income tax or barbless hooks or many more as "temporary" announced measures, I believe whatever we concede this year is here to stay for good. As Ukee stated, the plus 3% we got is very suspiciously conceived and probably not a real gain but rather a cheap paper trick at the cost of conservation. I have a bad feeling about this.
 
i really have no answer to your question Lorne, because i agree that dfo really has no accurate idea of what we are catching, computer models and formulas are a bunch of BS IMO, i am placing my trust in the friends and aquaintances that i know who are working behind the scenes on ours and the entire rec sectors behalf, if they screw us over then i will cross that bridge when when and if we come to it and act accordingly, at this point it's exactly what you stated, we have to stick together, the whole slot and redused thing is a bunch of crap as far as im concerned, but if it works in the short term for the greater good then so be it, i too am VERY worried about the precedent it sets, but its a gamble that that ppl that have more experience than you or i feel is in the best interest for the greater good, albeit only for this season, and the short term sure, so i am cautiously and hesitantly considering it, this is weighing on my mind like you would not believe and is causing me great stress, and i DO NOT take it lightly, its going against my instincts and my gut feeling to be honest, but i really do not feel that they are out to screw us, and having said that, it is NOT a long term solution, the long term goals have NOT changed, sometimes some small concessions and sacrifices have to made along the way in order to reach the final goal, im trying to ratioalize it the best i can somehow because it truely does go against my better judgement, but we cant be going rogue now, we have to stick together as a sector, and weve made it this far and i dont feel like fracturing the sector now, if this goes sideways, well, we will do whatever necesssary to rectify that if we have to, as for now, go with flow my friend..i assure you you were surely NOT misled, its a decision that had to made on the fly if you will.....and to be honest i really dont think it would be shut down before sept 1st even if these restrictions were not adopted, i really dont, but is it really worth the risk?, its a gamble either way, and im not a gambler, so i think i have to go with the odds, i really am torn, but i think that there are others that have more experience and knowledge than i do, so i have to trust they are making the right decision on this one.....holmes*

If they want to extend the season, starting later as I mentioned earlier would be a better solution then this. Say May 1 for example. Although i would not support that as it is still making concessions, at least it make a bit of sense of EVERYONES best interest, as the amount of sporties fishing hali before May 1 is minimal especially in comparison to august and i may be able to be talked into supporting that. But this decision as its painfully obvious really isnt about us sporties is it. Not a chance. . Not only do i not support the current recommendations. It enrages me.(if that wasn't obvious) Do not set a precedent to a 1 and 1 and a slot. That will be the status quo and we are facked.
 
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