The NRA in the states has not moral backbone what so ever...they are not concerned with anything more than those making arms being able to sell more and more guns and ammo....not much different than the pharmaceutical company's BS about social medicine down there. They don't care about what might be better for the majority of people...they just want to protect their profits. The states has serious social challenges (gangs etc) but these groups also play a big part in the problem.
Gun Control in US and Canada
- Thread starter tincan
- Start date
lorneparker1
Banned
Name calling. woohoo! Now we are getting somewhere. Its funny, when people dont agree, and when someone really starts to lose an argument, thats normally what they resort to. And really when you posted that video to Bowling for Columbine, you lost any crediblity you ever had.
Heres a great read on that movie.
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
When someone is so far on the left side of things being open minded isnt possible. The only thing worse is gun toting, christain right wingers. I am somewhere in the middle, and try to use reason, not emotion to make the most educated decision possible. So you are right, it is pointless. When our country institued the gun registry. It did nothing. Crime didnt go down, gun related deaths didnt go down, the info was useless to police officers, and we blew 2 billion on that brain wave, and then to top it off we abolished becuase it was so ****** and lit all the info on fire.
Lorne
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lorneparker1
Banned
Explain to me why it is absurd? Im not saying it has "no impact" im saying that never once in history has a GUN a CAR a KNIFE went to trial for murder. The person behind it has. To me, blaming in inanimate object is àbusrud`. Gun control laws that are not strict enough did not fail these families who are undergoing this very grievous period of mourning for their dead loved ones. What may have failed, even though speculative, is whatever social service system that did not intervene or pay attention to domestic issues that were occurring inside the home of the dead shooter.
Heres some more great stuff in areas with strict gun control
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/australia.html
You and kelly should both look into Virgina tech, Fort hood, and even Columbine. These were all MASS killings and shooting and terrible events that have occured in the past in `GUN FREE ZONES`within the US.
What about other areas where gun-control legislation has been implemented? Illinois has the most restrictive carry laws in the country, and Chicago has one of the toughest gun-control regulations among cities. Yet the murder rate for Illinois is above the national average, according to the FBI (5.5 per 100,000 in 2010, compared with 4.8 murders for the rest of the country), as is the state's violent crime rate (435.2 incidents per 100,000 compared with 403.6 nationally). Chicago recently lost a gun-control case at the Supreme Court (McDonald v. Chicago), but the city lost the gun-control argument years ago — considering that its murder rate is 18th among large American cities, at 15.2 per 100,000, more than three times the national average. Washington D.C., which in 2008 lost its own Supreme Court gun-control case, ranked seventh in 2010 with a 21.9 rate. For the record, Aurora's murder rate was 7.1 per 100,000 in 2010, while other Colorado cities were significantly lower: 5.0 for Colorado Springs and 3.6 for Denver.
THe facts are thre is lots of data on both sides of the coin both for and against Gun control, sifting it through it to find stuff that is real is pretty tough, because both sides feel so strongly about it. SO you kind of have to rely on common sense, which unfortunately isnt really that common obviously.
I really had no idea how many very left wing liberal fisherman were on this board.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/suicide_used_bow_and_arrow_college_Hnj3Rm9OcGr61aaD9CPAHJ
Lorne
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glad you folks have taken an interest in the huge problem we face down here. just a couple of points of clarification.
illinois just had their law struck down by another conservative court. it is not rocket science to understand that most of the guns in chicago are brought in and sold as black market items. this is sort of like believing you can shut down the drug traffic with some simple minded measures, they never work.
getting guns off of our streets is not possible. what is possible is to tighten up who is able to obtain them, without resorting to a black market deal.
walk into any weekend gun show and walk out with anything you can afford to purchase, no ifs, ands, or buts, no checking no nothing.
want high capacity magazines? no problem. how about 40 rounds for your glock. ammo in bulk? no problem 500 or 1000 round lots are available via the internet.
want a rapid fire semi-auto? no problem. the AR-15 is basically a weapon built for killing people. little to no recoil, high cap magazine, reliable, easy to slip a clip, and if you are cleaver enough you can implement full auto. in fact the parts are available via the internet.
are there places to start? you bet and the very first one is once again banning killing machines. don't tell me you need a high cap magazine and and AR-15 or uzi to go hunting. don't tell me you need a street sweeper to hunt ducks. too many obvious examples to pick from. shutting down this supply will have little to no immediate impact but you have to start someplace.
and then what about mandatory sentencing of perps who use firearms. way too lax at the moment. how about a mandatory 20 years in the slam with no parole possible for starters.
and lastly, who has the balls to take on the NRA???? this is probably the biggest stumbling block to any firearm reform in my country. when power is ceded to an industry lobby group, you lose the battle before you get to saddle up. but 20 elementary children ages 5-10 had damn well better get the attention of those career pols walking around with their hands out for dollars.
this is totally disgusting and my words can not even come close to describing the discussions among family and friends. my wife a former elementary school principal was hysterical last evening, her worse nightmare not being able to nuture and protect those children. my country is a disaster lacking leadership and moral principal.
illinois just had their law struck down by another conservative court. it is not rocket science to understand that most of the guns in chicago are brought in and sold as black market items. this is sort of like believing you can shut down the drug traffic with some simple minded measures, they never work.
getting guns off of our streets is not possible. what is possible is to tighten up who is able to obtain them, without resorting to a black market deal.
walk into any weekend gun show and walk out with anything you can afford to purchase, no ifs, ands, or buts, no checking no nothing.
want high capacity magazines? no problem. how about 40 rounds for your glock. ammo in bulk? no problem 500 or 1000 round lots are available via the internet.
want a rapid fire semi-auto? no problem. the AR-15 is basically a weapon built for killing people. little to no recoil, high cap magazine, reliable, easy to slip a clip, and if you are cleaver enough you can implement full auto. in fact the parts are available via the internet.
are there places to start? you bet and the very first one is once again banning killing machines. don't tell me you need a high cap magazine and and AR-15 or uzi to go hunting. don't tell me you need a street sweeper to hunt ducks. too many obvious examples to pick from. shutting down this supply will have little to no immediate impact but you have to start someplace.
and then what about mandatory sentencing of perps who use firearms. way too lax at the moment. how about a mandatory 20 years in the slam with no parole possible for starters.
and lastly, who has the balls to take on the NRA???? this is probably the biggest stumbling block to any firearm reform in my country. when power is ceded to an industry lobby group, you lose the battle before you get to saddle up. but 20 elementary children ages 5-10 had damn well better get the attention of those career pols walking around with their hands out for dollars.
this is totally disgusting and my words can not even come close to describing the discussions among family and friends. my wife a former elementary school principal was hysterical last evening, her worse nightmare not being able to nuture and protect those children. my country is a disaster lacking leadership and moral principal.
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Cuba Libre
Well-Known Member
Thanks Reelfast for that perspective. Maybe this tragedy will get Americans to question if totally unfettered access to all weapons is REALLY what your Founding Fathers had in mind with the Second Amendment. Some how-- I dont think so..............
sir-vivor
Well-Known Member
Maybe , but then again we are not reporting a 28 death count shooting in Canada are we ?? So explain that my friend !
If you cant then who cares about the 2 billion thats spent , its a attempt and we can't learn, if we dont try
The fact is attempts have to be made and guns have no place in our lives now, we dont need to kill to eat , just go to Safeways !
A person I met yesterday (x military) told me the the first purpose for gun development , was for killing people , hunting came later ........... dont know if its true but and interesting comment isnt it
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lorneparker1
Banned
ChoveyRoller
Member
Wow.... on a fishing forum? This thread is getting crazy
lorneparker1
Banned
Its statements like this that make it impossible to have intellegent debate about hunting and guns.
fish stalker
Active Member
I had to go back I thought this was sarcastic for sure but I dont think so. This is getting crazy! Better put down your rod and head to safeway! Just also had to check something else he said just for peoples curiosity
Firearms were invented in the 12th century in China,[1] after the Chinese had invented gunpowder in the 9th century.[2][3][4] These inventions were later transmitted to the Middle East and to Europe.
The direct ancestor of the firearm is the fire lance, a blackpowder-filled tube attached to the end of a spear and used as a flamethrower; shrapnel was sometimes placed in the barrel so that it would fly out together with the flames.[4][5] The earliest depiction of a gunpowder weapon is the illustration of a fire-lance on a mid-10th century silk banner from Dunhuang.[6] The De'an Shoucheng Lu, an account of the siege of De'an in 1132, records that Song forces used fire-lances against the Jurchens.[7]
In due course, the proportion of saltpeter in the propellant was increased to maximise its explosive power.[5] To better withstand that explosive power, the paper and bamboo of which fire-lance barrels were originally made came to be replaced by metal.[4] And to take full advantage of that power, the shrapnel came to be replaced by projectiles whose size and shape filled the barrel more closely.[5] With this, we have the three basic features of the gun: a barrel made of metal, high-nitrate gunpowder, and a projectile which totally occludes the muzzle so that the powder charge exerts its full potential in propellant effect.[8]
The earliest depiction of a gun is a sculpture from a cave in Sichuan dating to the 12th century of a figure carrying a vase-shaped bombard with flames and a cannonball coming out of it.[1][9] The oldest surviving gun, made of bronze, has been dated to 1288 because it was discovered at a site in modern-day Acheng District where the Yuan Shi records that battles were fought at that time; Li Ting, a military commander of Jurchen descent, led foot-soldiers armed with guns—including a Korean brigade—in battle to suppress the rebellion of the Christian Mongol prince Nayan.[10]
Not sure how I feel about gun control. I think canada has it mostly right. I do think its unfair that certain guns cant be passed on and must deactivated or destroyed. I know the states is crazy. Went down to Cabelas and people pointing guns at each other all over the place. Bullets 10ft away on a shelf. **** could go wrong fast with phycos around. I thought your should never point a gun at someone if think its empty. Defeneitly think background checks and metal means test should be givin.
IronNoggin
Well-Known Member
Agree more than a little with ol' Sam on this one
The Tragedy yesterday was indeed that, and a rather Serious one. Takes an awfully sick & twisted mind to do what this Eh-H did.
My heart goes out to those effected by this madman's actions.
And... No Surprise the bleeding hearts immediately jumped back on the gun control bandwagon as The Root Of All Evils. They constantly look for any method to bring their message to bear, and this atrocious act played right into their hands.
Read this entire thread, and all I can say to those who seized the opportunity to cry for further firearm restrictions on this forum is: be Goddamn Glad you live in Canada! A place where is there actually NO need for restrictions above and beyond what we already have in place. And, unfortunately a place where the saying "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" gets played out on nearly a monthly basis.
Handguns have been under extremely tight control for many decades here. And "assault" type weapons have been under even more extreme control for several decades now. To me, a firearm owner, these restrictions are beyond "comfortable", for I sincerely do not wish to see our streets bear witness to the High Noon debacles that are increasingly far too common south of the line.
That said, anyone who thinks Canadian Firearm Restrictions negatively effect criminal actions better give their head a Serious SHAKE! The ONLY people effected are those that choose to follow The Rules. Honest Citizens.
Criminals have well proven incredible inventiveness in procuring the exact type of firearms these restrictions are designed to keep off our streets. Unfortunately they always will. Even more unfortunately, our so-called Justice System routinely treats violations of our Firearms Regulations with a mere slap on the wrist offering little or no deterrent to those who choose to flaunt them. Further restrictions here Will NOT change nor effect that in any way shape or form. Any that think otherwise are simply deluding themselves. You want change? Then get on with the ONLY thing that will bring about any positive changes - that being making the ownership and use of illegal weapons accountable under our System of Justice. Make the penalty Fit The Crime! No more kiddy gloves when it comes to these types offenses! Twenty year minimums for their ownership, Thirty year minimums for their use! Ahhhhh.... but that takes serious concerted effort to impart, and serious commitment to see it through. Far easier I guess to jump on the bandwagon and cry for more restrictions on the Honest Owners. An abject lesson in futility.
The situation across the line is entirely different. There, the opinion that God, Gun's and Guts made America What It Is still very much rules the day. And given the Power of the NRA and the like, substantial change is likely a long ways off. Until the current mindset that a gun in every pocket can be swayed, their situation is entirely unlikely to change.
Methinks reelfast had a few good starting points:
And while I tend to agree with what he said, again, such changes aren't overly likely in the immediate future.
Why? Well once again reelfast hit the nail right on the head:
aYup. And changing that particular situation is much akin to Mission Impossible. That said, we can Hope that it doesn't take many more of such atrocities as we witnessed yesterday to start the ball rolling...
As for Canada, methinks we already have enough "control" already on the books. The only thing that could improve upon that would be if our Justice System starts to take violations thereof as seriously as they should be.
Cheers,
Nog - An Honest Firearm Owner and Proud Of It!
fish stalker
Active Member
Well you better just go to a hunting website where all the 'intelligent' people are.
I dont think mandatory jail time will stop anybody from doing things like this. They alway kill themselves after. Same with locks or metal detectors on schools there not going to stop when the beep goes off. And this kid yesterday would have got in has he would be recognized and let in.
I dont think mandatory jail time will stop anybody from doing things like this. They alway kill themselves after. Same with locks or metal detectors on schools there not going to stop when the beep goes off. And this kid yesterday would have got in has he would be recognized and let in.
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lorneparker1
Banned
Agree more than a little with ol' Sam on this one
The Tragedy yesterday was indeed that, and a rather Serious one. Takes an awfully sick & twisted mind to do what this Eh-H did.
My heart goes out to those effected by this madman's actions.
And... No Surprise the bleeding hearts immediately jumped back on the gun control bandwagon as The Root Of All Evils. They constantly look for any method to bring their message to bear, and this atrocious act played right into their hands.
Read this entire thread, and all I can say to those who seized the opportunity to cry for further firearm restrictions on this forum is: be Goddamn Glad you live in Canada! A place where is there actually NO need for restrictions above and beyond what we already have in place. And, unfortunately a place where the saying "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" gets played out on nearly a monthly basis.
Handguns have been under extremely tight control for many decades here. And "assault" type weapons have been under even more extreme control for several decades now. To me, a firearm owner, these restrictions are beyond "comfortable", for I sincerely do not wish to see our streets bear witness to the High Noon debacles that are increasingly far too common south of the line.
That said, anyone who thinks Canadian Firearm Restrictions negatively effect criminal actions better give their head a Serious SHAKE! The ONLY people effected are those that choose to follow The Rules. Honest Citizens.
Criminals have well proven incredible inventiveness in procuring the exact type of firearms these restrictions are designed to keep off our streets. Unfortunately they always will. Even more unfortunately, our so-called Justice System routinely treats violations of our Firearms Regulations with a mere slap on the wrist offering little or no deterrent to those who choose to flaunt them. Further restrictions here Will NOT change nor effect that in any way shape or form. Any that think otherwise are simply deluding themselves. You want change? Then get on with the ONLY thing that will bring about any positive changes - that being making the ownership and use of illegal weapons accountable under our System of Justice. Make the penalty Fit The Crime! No more kiddy gloves when it comes to these types offenses! Twenty year minimums for their ownership, Thirty year minimums for their use! Ahhhhh.... but that takes serious concerted effort to impart, and serious commitment to see it through. Far easier I guess to jump on the bandwagon and cry for more restrictions on the Honest Owners. An abject lesson in futility.
The situation across the line is entirely different. There, the opinion that God, Gun's and Guts made America What It Is still very much rules the day. And given the Power of the NRA and the like, substantial change is likely a long ways off. Until the current mindset that a gun in every pocket can be swayed, their situation is entirely unlikely to change.
Methinks reelfast had a few good starting points:
And while I tend to agree with what he said, again, such changes aren't overly likely in the immediate future.
Why? Well once again reelfast hit the nail right on the head:
aYup. And changing that particular situation is much akin to Mission Impossible. That said, we can Hope that it doesn't take many more of such atrocities as we witnessed yesterday to start the ball rolling...
As for Canada, methinks we already have enough "control" already on the books. The only thing that could improve upon that would be if our Justice System starts to take violations thereof as seriously as they should be.
Cheers,
Nog - An Honest Firearm Owner and Proud Of It!
One thing that would help IMO is if the media would stop glorfiying these people. These people are INSANE, and most love the idea of going out like this. They shouldnt report on the killer at all, and he should be buried with an unnamed tombstone.
Lorne
Dave S
Active Member
Thanks for that Noggin. This "bleeding heart" is going to agree with the top comment on this picture. I am a bleeding heart right now because so many innocent children lost their lives yesterday. To just throw up our arms and say "oh well, nothing we can change to fix this problem" is not how some believe. Forgive us for being so naive in thinking that we can actually make a difference.
Less guns, less gun related murders. This isn't about taking away the rights of responsible gun owners or hunters. I think that the more guns per capita, the more the general public feel the need to have a gun in their home to protect themselves. Big problem!
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Dave S
Active Member
Wow! To say that more gun control would not have prevented these children from being killed is ridiculous.....But disagreeing with you Lorne means I'm uneducated and a complete idiot so......oh, I'm also a left wing liberal right?
Further discussions with you is pointless.....
IronNoggin
Well-Known Member
Then indeed, you also "fit" the bottom comment.
I tend to believe we are all shocked and dismayed by the loss of these innocents. How could one not be?
That said, you say you desire change. Then as I noted above, get on with something Positive to effect that! Ranting and screaming for more firearm "control" simply isn't going to address that. It's been tried here, and was more than a dismal failure. You are not naive thinking you may be able to impose positive change, you are simply focused in the wrong direction. We have sufficient firearm control Legislation in Canada. If you really want to impart positive change, start pushing those you elected to force the Criminal Justice System to enforce the maximum penalties for firearm violations. Change your focus to what WILL Work, and I am ALL IN!
Less ILLEGAL guns and I concur. Creating yet more "control" Legislation here certainly IS about "taking away the rights of responsible gun owners or hunters" and WILL NOT effect Criminal Activity. Focus your Angst and Action on what will, and I believe you will have the full support of the vast majority of responsible owners and hunters. Myself included.
Cheers,
Nog
lorneparker1
Banned
Correct. We do agree finally. If you truly belive more gun control would have prevented this horrible thing, arguing with me is pointless.
Ftr I never said anyone was a complete idiot. But if banning guns would have prevented this, then maybe we should ban illegal narcotics like cocaine and heroin, because these ruin far more lives and kill far more people then guns ever will. Oh wait....
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fish stalker
Active Member
I have to agree with Dave to say that if criminals will obey guns laws is not the point. The point I think he and others are trying to say if guns wernt sold to any Joe Dick and Crazy, gun related killings would go down because it would be harder for criminals or mentally unstable people to get there hands on them. Mabey these ideas only come to them and are a reality because there are so easily accessible. Like just asking your mom to go buy them for you. There are estimated to be 200 million privately owned firearms in the US closer is 3.5 if you take into account law officer s etc. In Canada 7 million guns. You think there is no correlation between those stats and gun related violence? Comparing our gun registry is totally not comparable to trying anything more then what they have already in the states.
People are set in they train of thought and those who cant think it will not effect gun crimes and to what I and many others think no matter if you state your thoughts as facts dosnt make it true. I think we will all have to agree to disagree.
People are set in they train of thought and those who cant think it will not effect gun crimes and to what I and many others think no matter if you state your thoughts as facts dosnt make it true. I think we will all have to agree to disagree.
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pescador
Well-Known Member
Here's what I know. Countries with more restrictive gun laws have less horrific events, like yesterdays, than those that don't. You do not see the frequency of these events the same in the uk, canada, spain or other countries I'm familiar with. They all have more restrictive rules around acquistion of firearms. That being said, the US does not have the will to make the required changes. Any changes they make would not be close to the way other countries view as sufficiently material to influence real behavioral/cultural change. Its another polarizing US political topic that most politicians don't want to address.
T
tortuga
Guest
At least the people who die from drugs had a say in the matter
