gold river

RalphH.....i was referring to the Elwhas summer run steelhead, not the Gold or Heber stocks in terms of functionally extinct. The two stocks of summers on the Gold are doing better than they were years ago? Have you been on the Heber lately?

As per hatchery steelhead wiping out the wilds on the Gold, we did encounter a few summer and hatchery strays over the years. To claim hatcheries wiped them out is comical.
Have you encountered lots of hatchery strays on the Gold Ralph?

Ralph, what BC rivers have done better once hatcheries have been shut down?

Wildmanyeahs,above comments completely sum up closures. Without help these systems stay dead. All the wishful thinking in the world ain't going to bring them back.
 
Can you name a relatively new steelhead enhancement project in this province? The suggestion that the province is going to spend new money on producing more hatchery steelhead is laughable.
Heck, if the stamp winter runs continue to come in at their current low numbers you may soon see that program cut.
Unfortunately steelhead are on their own, this includes the once famous gold river winter runs.
 
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Onefish hit it on the head. No one will spend money on hatcheries anymore. There is no money. There was no return on the money when there was. We have to think and act differently

RalphH.....i was referring to the Elwhas summer run steelhead,...

https://www.wildsteelheaders.org/the-elwha-files-my-oh-my-what-have-we-found/

The Elwha’s summer steelhead, which are not supplemented by a hatchery, have – almost literally – risen from the ashes like the Phoenix.

I think this suggests this could work for the Gold though I'd note a lot of work is being done there to restore habitat on the Elwha and a salmon hatchery still operates... salmon number particularly wild salmon haven't improved significantly but steelhead seem to have.

In the US some rivers that have had their hatchery programs ended or curtailed have done better. I think virtually every run where enhancement has stopped on the east coast of the Island (excepting the Cluxewe & Quatse) has at least not done worse.
 
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Onefish, you are absolutely correct. There is no money that is going to be spent on any of our steelhead fisheries. It’s easier For our government to just close rivers or areas and just let the public forget about them. Would be nice if funding went towards restoration/ hatcheries. The numbers of people that I am seeing this fall for angling is record breaking. Every single flow in the lower mainland has numbers of people that hasn’t been seen before. The pressure on any flow without hatcheries will be reaching a breaking point soon enough. With COVID and people not working it seems everyone is on the rivers these days.

Ralph, as some one fishes in the Washington and Oregon(before COVID) what rivers have done better without hatcheries? I am curious to hear about these flows that have recouped. What east coast flows of the island have you seen better numbers of fish where the hatcheries been taken out?The Cowie?
 
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WMY - the dam was removed in 2011. Counts of summer steelhead have risen since 2016. The time lag indicates those fish are not trout flushed from the reservoir as has happened in the Alouette. The same river surveys have found dramatic increases in the number of rainbow trout in the Elwha as well as increased #s of Bull Trout:

Snorkelers counted 15,000 rainbow trout in September, more than double the 7,300 that were counted in 2007.“One real success story has been the bull trout,” Brenkman said. “We’ve seen some really neat changes in their population.”
He said 262 federally threatened bull trout were counted during the survey, a number that is up 22 percent from the 2007 survey and is more than double the 2008 count.
https://www.peninsuladailynews.com/news/scientists-optimistic-about-return-of-chinook-to-elwha/

Buck - The Smith (the state hatchery was destroyed in a flood though a small hatchery still operates on a tributary) and the Rogue have benefited more from stream enhancements including dam removal than from hatcheries. https://deeply.thenewhumanitarian.o...in-oregons-rogue-river-dam-removal-may-be-why


While some anglers may "do better" (whatever that means) thanks to hatcheries, the rivers and the steelhead do not. For many hatchery operations on EC VanIsle they are lucky to get the same number of hatchery fish back for expenditure of brood stock - that is why all those rivers collapsed. Survival rates for wild fish is better.

Do they raise hatchery steelhead for release on the Cowichan? Nothing is listed. Even the Alouette got more benefits from improved water release than from hatchery production. I catch more wild fish there than hatchery by 3 or more to 1.
 
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I actually agree with you in regards to how brood stock from wild fish is a killer on systems. Have been pushing hard for brood to be taken on the hatchery stock on the Ally and Vedder. The broodstockers have completely decimated the wild population on the ditch here in maple ridge. There is other factors but taking 20+ fish from a small system is very short sighted.
 
Of course 30+ years ago when marine survival rates were approaching 10% and more, every hatchery program was a runaway success! Not so much today when rate are 2% or less:(
 
30 years ago we didn't have the Pinniped problem that we do today.
The Cowichan hatchery demise was a political decision that had nothing to do with the effectiveness of the Hatchery Program.
The Ministry of environment looked for a reason to close down the program. They ran a flawed creel survey to justify the decision.
For 3 years they conducted an onsite survey of fish caught and wild vs hatch. They came to the conclusion that less than 20 hatchery fish were being caught per year and that didn't justify the 30 wilds per year taken for brood stock.
The flaw was that they only canvassed the mid-river bank spots that were easy to cover and did not survey the drift boat fishermen. the survey ran from January to the end of February each year. There were a significant number of guides and private people running drift boats on the Cowichan at the time, who caught a large number of fish on a daily basis from mid-November to mid April.
Was the hatchery program Perfect? No it wasn't!
It needed more funding than the Band could provide and didn't seem to get enough technical oversight and assistance from DFO.
The truth of the matter is the MOE and DFO do not support Steelhead. On the Island they have dismantled most of the Steelhead programs that existed. Look at the Cowichan , look at the cancellation of the Oyster River Program.
Steelhead are not deemed by the governments to have any commercial value . The finacial spinoffs from fishing tourism, guide fees, equipment sales and license fees do not factor as commercial value for them.
 
We need to preserve what habitat is left and restore as much of the watershed as possible. Hatcheries have been proven that they are not the solution and funds should be redirected to restoring and saving wild salmon and steelhead habitat.
 
I am so sick and tired of hearing steelhead, and especially upper Fraser chinook, can be saved by habitat restoration. In the vast majority of cases the habitat is just fine ... the problem is a lack of spawners compounded by extremely poor ocean survivals.
Your comment on habitat is simply wrong. That being said while ocean survival is currently poor that is largely out of our control. What we can do is protect the fish once they reach our own waters and preserve existing habitat and restore the rest. I don't know a stream on Vancouver Island that hasn't been ravaged by logging including the Gold so to say the habitat is just fine is off the mark.
 
I am saying the habitat we have now is more than adequate for the few spawners left after all the fisheries and predators. True, I'm not familiar with Van isle streams, but I have considerable knowledge of the habitat available on the Fraser and its tribs.
 
WMY - the dam was removed in 2011. Counts of summer steelhead have risen since 2016. The time lag indicates those fish are not trout flushed from the reservoir as has happened in the Alouette. The same river surveys have found dramatic increases in the number of rainbow trout in the Elwha as well as increased #s of Bull Trout:

https://www.peninsuladailynews.com/news/scientists-optimistic-about-return-of-chinook-to-elwha/

Buck - The Smith (the state hatchery was destroyed in a flood though a small hatchery still operates on a tributary) and the Rogue have benefited more from stream enhancements including dam removal than from hatcheries. https://deeply.thenewhumanitarian.o...in-oregons-rogue-river-dam-removal-may-be-why


While some anglers may "do better" (whatever that means) thanks to hatcheries, the rivers and the steelhead do not. For many hatchery operations on EC VanIsle they are lucky to get the same number of hatchery fish back for expenditure of brood stock - that is why all those rivers collapsed. Survival rates for wild fish is better.

Do they raise hatchery steelhead for release on the Cowichan? Nothing is listed. Even the Alouette got more benefits from improved water release than from hatchery production. I catch more wild fish there than hatchery by 3 or more to 1.
Interesting read on the rogue river. Good to see they don't seem to be too detrimentally affected by Climate Change down there in Oregon State. I wonder what else they don't have to deal with down there?
 
Ocean survival rates are largely related to ocean temperatures. Over the last 30 years there has been continual long cycles of warm el ninos and warm water blob events. Right now we've supposedly entered a La Nina cool cycle. I have noticed and have others the first runs of coho appear much larger than the previous few years. While Fraser River habitat may be fine the question is can ocean bound smolts and returning adults get where they have to go in the face of warmer in river summer water temperatures. There is supposedly still a large % of former habitat inaccessible above sub standard road culverts. These issues cascade through all species in most of the watershed.

Over close to 60 years of fishing I have spent more time fishing for cutthroat in the FV than salmon or steelhead. Cutthroat enhancement for BC streams was recently terminated. The last program still underway in on the Oyster River. Many are waiting to see how the stocks fare. This winter I saw a nice return of wild trout on the Fraser between Chilliwack and Hope. One of my favorite streams had it's own cutthroat stocking program cancelled close to 30 years ago. Despite the watershed containing the subdivisions and malls of some of Canada's fastest growing communities these fish seem to be doing astonishing well given the challenges of habitat degradation.

Likewise the hatchery programs for summer steelhead on the Coquihalla and Silverhope were terminated some decades ago. While there has been some periods of very low numbers plus a loss of habitat, ie the Coquihalla Highway and yet another pipeline coming through the valley, this stock of wild fish still persists. Interception of returning fish in commercial and FN net fisheries probably accounts for the greatest loss of returning adults.

Wild fish populations can survive despite loss of habitat and development growth - if we give them a chance to do what they are naturally equipped to do.
 
Your comment on habitat is simply wrong. That being said while ocean survival is currently poor that is largely out of our control. What we can do is protect the fish once they reach our own waters and preserve existing habitat and restore the rest. I don't know a stream on Vancouver Island that hasn't been ravaged by logging including the Gold so to say the habitat is just fine is off the mark.
You need to read this, https://www.sportfishingbc.com/foru...lmon-oncorhynchus-tshawyt.84052/#post-1025426
 
Ocean survival rates are largely related to ocean temperatures. Over the last 30 years there has been continual long cycles of warm el ninos and warm water blob events. Right now we've supposedly entered a La Nina cool cycle. I have noticed and have others the first runs of coho appear much larger than the previous few years. While Fraser River habitat may be fine the question is can ocean bound smolts and returning adults get where they have to go in the face of warmer in river summer water temperatures. There is supposedly still a large % of former habitat inaccessible above sub standard road culverts. These issues cascade through all species in most of the watershed.

Over close to 60 years of fishing I have spent more time fishing for cutthroat in the FV than salmon or steelhead. Cutthroat enhancement for BC streams was recently terminated. The last program still underway in on the Oyster River. Many are waiting to see how the stocks fare. This winter I saw a nice return of wild trout on the Fraser between Chilliwack and Hope. One of my favorite streams had it's own cutthroat stocking program cancelled close to 30 years ago. Despite the watershed containing the subdivisions and malls of some of Canada's fastest growing communities these fish seem to be doing astonishing well given the challenges of habitat degradation.

Likewise the hatchery programs for summer steelhead on the Coquihalla and Silverhope were terminated some decades ago. While there has been some periods of very low numbers plus a loss of habitat, ie the Coquihalla Highway and yet another pipeline coming through the valley, this stock of wild fish still persists. Interception of returning fish in commercial and FN net fisheries probably accounts for the greatest loss of returning adults.

Wild fish populations can survive despite loss of habitat and development growth - if we give them a chance to do what they’re y are naturally equipped to do.
You also need to read this,https://www.sportfishingbc.com/foru...lmon-oncorhynchus-tshawyt.84052/#post-1025426
 
The rumour is out that a group is proposing paying for a hatchery to stock the Gold.
Will be be interesting to see if the province will allow this. Also if not them what will be their excuse to say no.
 
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