First Closed containment Salmon Farm pen

[tofinofish]

Off the Halibut topic but on another hot button these days - good to see this come together as the first in the world....

http://www.canada.com/First+world/4106415/story.html

 

[Dogbreath]

I saw a sample of the product used to build those walls-some sort of super strong composite-can't remember details but it wasn't cheap.

 

[firelight]

I thought that this was supposed to be a land based system. But there is no way these fish will get out, lets do those gmo coho that grow twice as fast as normal.

 

[Little Hawk]

Beat me to the punch TF! Read it earlier this morning and was stoked. It's just a matter of time now till all these Viking fishfarmers along with all of our collusive politicians they have in their pockets - get their collective asses kicked out the now 'thoroughly gaping' door!

LONG LIVE PACIFIC SALMON!

 

[cuttlefish]

Nice to see the technology moving forward in BC. Wishing them the best of luck.

 

[sockeyefry2]

A move to closed containment means no salmon farming in BC. It is simply too expensive.

This system is actually in some ways worse than a net pen. And don't think that they are escape proof.

 

[Dogbreath]

A move to closed containment means no salmon farming in BC. It is simply too expensive.

I would add-as the business is presently practiced.

This system is actually in some ways worse than a net pen. And don't think that they are escape proof.

Perhaps you'd like to share your insight with the rest of us-I'm sure the beauty is in the details.

 

[Ding Dong!]

Interesting to see this project come into fruition. While there have been many successful inland closed containment systems, perhaps this compromise will be affordable enough to change the industry in BC. While researching this project I found some interesting YouTube videos that have been put out by DFO http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/video/ACRDP-eng.htm#n6

Ding Dong!

 

[sockeyefry2]

You could say it that way Dog, which would indicate that you are anticipating some huge improvement in the cost associated with the moving of water.

Simply put fish tanks/cages/ponds/nets need the water exchanged to bring in oxygen and take away metabolic products. This exchange has to be done by something. In a net pen it is done by the tide powered by the moon and is free. In a closed con it is done by some mechanical means usually a pump powered by some form of energy which costs money.

The typical response by proponenets of closed cons to the increased costs is to grow more kgs of fish per cubic volume of tank space. They will calculate the profitable level on neat sporead sheets and prove it can be done. Big problem is they are growing paper fish. Real fish respond to being crowded by growing slowly. In addition the animal welfare people might have something to say regarding the crowded conditions required for profitabiulity in a closed con.

My "insight" comes from the management of both net pen farms and closed cons. Been doing this for over 20 years.

 

[Dogbreath]

which would indicate that you are anticipating some huge improvement in the cost associated with the moving of water.

I said no such thing why do you try and twist my words? (it won't work BTW)

Simply put fish tanks/cages/ponds/nets need the water exchanged to bring in oxygen and take away metabolic products. This exchange has to be done by something. In a net pen it is done by the tide powered by the moon and is free. In a closed con it is done by some mechanical means usually a pump powered by some form of energy which costs money.

Why do you think I don't know that?

Electricity is cheap in BC-that's one reason we have a thriving indoor marijuana industry but the Dutch for instance don't.

The typical response by proponenets of closed cons to the increased costs is to grow more kgs of fish per cubic volume of tank space. They will calculate the profitable level on neat sporead sheets and prove it can be done. Big problem is they are growing paper fish. Real fish respond to being crowded by growing slowly. In addition the animal welfare people might have something to say regarding the crowded conditions required for profitabiulity in a closed con.

My "insight" comes from the management of both net pen farms and closed cons. Been doing this for over 20 years.

Good for you-I've been an informed opponent of the industry for at least as long.

Talking down to me-or the other informed opponents here will either get you

A-ignored

B-handed your butt on a plate

If you want to participate here doing so in a spirit of good will and camaraderie will reap all kinds of benefits

Good Luck!

Carl Z
Vancouver BC

 

[sockeyefry2]

Relax Dog.

Why would I be ignored or handed my butt?

I am not threatening you so I would asppreciate some courtesy.

I am merely pointing out some undeniable facts for you to consider. One that it costs more money to pump water through a tank than it does to let the tide do it through a netpen and two a tank system has a higher initial capital cost than a net system which means you have a higher debt service.

I think you are getting confused with my agenda. I am not trying to convince you that CC's are bad so the industry can keep the nets. I am trying to prevent the colossal mistake of forcing the industry into a non viable alternative on which a lot of government money will be wasted on the transition, with the ultimate result of the demise of the BC salmon industry.

The question you have to ask is Does BC want netpen aquaculture? If yes then where and how? Determine where and how it can be done so that the companies remain viable and the impacts on the environment are minimized.

If No, then pay a severance to the companies and shut it down. Spend money to retrain the employees. It'll be less than the cost of putting the entire production on land in tanks.

 

[searun]

Relax Dog.

Why would I be ignored or handed my butt?

I am not threatening you so I would asppreciate some courtesy.

I am merely pointing out some undeniable facts for you to consider. One that it costs more money to pump water through a tank than it does to let the tide do it through a netpen and two a tank system has a higher initial capital cost than a net system which means you have a higher debt service.

I think you are getting confused with my agenda. I am not trying to convince you that CC's are bad so the industry can keep the nets. I am trying to prevent the colossal mistake of forcing the industry into a non viable alternative on which a lot of government money will be wasted on the transition, with the ultimate result of the demise of the BC salmon industry.

The question you have to ask is Does BC want netpen aquaculture? If yes then where and how? Determine where and how it can be done so that the companies remain viable and the impacts on the environment are minimized.

If No, then pay a severance to the companies and shut it down. Spend money to retrain the employees. It'll be less than the cost of putting the entire production on land in tanks.

I believe the general public are coming to the conclusion that there are good reasons why many countries have banned open net pens. Why on earth would the salmon farming industry spend $$ millions for advertising. They realize the battle is now at a tipping point. So, in answer to your question, most of the public would say NO. The next step is to determine how to fairly assist the industry to switch over to land based CC systems.

 

[GLG]

Same company new issue.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/0...over-chinese-fish-farm-using-b-c-salmon-eggs/

 

[wolf]

So if im reading it right you would need a CC pen on land You would need a pump and some water?????? HHHHHMMMM ok ill bite how about the ABONDONED log site at EVE river?? you could probablly put ALL fish farms in that area on that tarmack as that dryland is huge you got good water coming in, pump it up feed the pens FILTER it and send back into the water CLEAN.

Then you have room to clean up the tanks put all the unused food and all the CRAP they produce and haul it a way, hey how about use it as a by product for the farms??? because if its good enough to let dump into the ocean untreated its apperentlly not harmfull????????HMMMM ill get back to you on that one.....

Think of all the money you would SAVE not having to use boats for transportation from hauling supplies and product back and forth,,, Im am almost certain that would far exceed the money spend on generators and pumps. way quicker too for getting the product a truck just has to come down pick it and be gone. which result in way less man hours and in turn more money(profit)

Sounds good so far, My personall feeling is YES we do need aquaculture BUT and this is a big BUT not at the cost of destroying the environment to do it. it can be done but they just dont give a shiat and either does the government because there pockets get stuffed with money from the owners for there political parties.


Wolf

 

[cuttlefish]

Good one, Wolf. Another option is the old mine site at Coal Harbour already wired up with a huge electrical power supply and just a 15 minute drive by road to the existing fish processing plant in Port Hardy. Another might be the now idled Elk River pulp mill site outside Campbell River. Apparently Catalyst isn't going to restart that one any time soon.

I hear the Namgis from Alert Bay are going to build a project next to the hatchery on the Nimpkish River and Port Alice asked a closed containment engineer to assess their community as a possible site.

It's happening and the net pen operators know that. Ergo big bucks on insulting ads.

Now if the powers that be could just figure out that a 54% Return on Investment in 3 years (a figure from a DFO economic analysis of an open net pen and a closed tank operation) is grossly excessive in today's reality. If they began to tax the open net pen industry for all the costs that are currently being off-loaded to the environment i.e. wastes carried away by the currents, sea lice discharge, escapes, possible disease transference, by-catch of other species the playing field could be leveled. No more free rides for net-pen!

 

[sockeyefry2]

Guys,

I'm not saying keep net pens. I don't care if the whole BC industry is shut down tomorrow, won't affect me. But I do know that CC's don't work. It takes alot of water flowing in tanks to grow salmon. It takes alot of electricity to pump that water. Even if the power was free, the debt service and depreciation on the capital would make it not feasible. You also need large areas of flat land next to the ocean, and they need to be close to the grid for power, and cheap. I've seen quite a few start and go bankrupt. I can't think of one that is currently in operation.

Cuttle, the DFO analysis was flawed. It made assumptions such as 15 degree water year round but did not include costs for heating the water, and being able to grow a market salmon in 12 months (it takes atleast 16 at 15 degrees). Check out the assumptions on which the model was based.

Net pen farming is far from problem free as you are aware. It is difficult to predict nature and costly to overcome environmental conditions in BC. CC's do offer the ability to control the rearing environment, which makes harvests more predictable. If the costs of production were the same then it would be a no brainer and the farms would all be on land. But they aren't and that's why net pens are used.

I would suggest retaining the current net pen systems, but examine where and how they operate and mitigate impacts. At least that way you will still have a salmon farming industry albeit smaller. Sorry to rain on your parade but CC's, while appearing to be a solution on the surface is the wrong move.

BTW Searun which countries have banned net pens? I can only think of a state Alaska.

 

[wolf]

Well if you need that much power get big generators it can be done then if the cost is high let the consumer pay for it how much more I bet you as (im a betting man) an extra 50 cents a lb would work maybe who knows????I used to work in knoight inlet for close to 20 yrs and the destruction that occured there especially at sargeaunts pass was sickening, the only reason they wont go to CC pens is one reason and one reason only >>>>>>>>and you know it then there admit FAULT and we cant let that happen......


Wolf

 

[cuttlefish]

Sockeyefry2, Glad we agree on a couple of things; 1. Net pen farming is far from problem free. 2. If costs of production were the same, it would be a no-brainer and the farms would all be on land.

My point is bringing the net pen industry to account for the eco-system services it now enjoys for free. That will help level the cost of production playing field. That is my opinion of how net pens should operate. My opinion about where is they should only operate where they have minimal impact so that there would need to be minimal mitigation. Just because the industry operates in places where there are no wild salmon anymore, or they get a free ride on eco-system services and regulations are lower elsewhere doesn't mean that we give the industry a free ride here so that the industry here can remain competitive. That is the downward spiral to the lowest common denominator that plagues us in the age of globalization and it is wrong (IMHO).

I still hope to see the Middle Bay project become a successful operation in the future. I wish them all the best. I give them high marks for keeping trying.

And finally, I cannot accept the say-so of someone posting to this thread without something like a reference for back-up. If you can do that, then we all get educated. I'm not saying you're not telling the truth, you may have a ton of CC experience. I'm just saying I have no way to know that what you say is anything more than your opinion, informed or not.

 

[wolf]

Just because the industry operates in places where there are no wild salmon anymore,

Thats cause the sea lice killed them all........
Wolf

 

[fishingbc]

I believe the general public are coming to the conclusion that there are good reasons why many countries have banned open net pens. Why on earth would the salmon farming industry spend $$ millions for advertising. They realize the battle is now at a tipping point. So, in answer to your question, most of the public would say NO. The next step is to determine how to fairly assist the industry to switch over to land based CC systems.

ya notice when they are running their adds.....only during peak viewing time .....canucks games,,,,