Cowichan River Chinook

And that's how misinformed rumors start, some may call this fake news. There were reasons why the Cowichan hatchery smolt mortality was disproportionally high, very specific to this operation. Don't try to make a general statement out of this! The reduced rate of hatchery production is certainly NOT the reason why the Chinook stock is rebounding. I wished people would stick to what they actually know before blurting out "fluffy stuff". If you make an assumption, identify this as such and don't make it sound as if you actually know something. Dick Beamish would be very upset by taking such a statement out of context and spinning it for your agenda. Think before posting!

Agreed. There are a number a projects happening on the Cowichan between the Lake Cowichan Enhancement society, Cowichan tribes hatchery, and many others. Also I hate to tell you but Catalyst Paper also is heavily involved in the water situation. Not only with its own water situation but working with everybody so the Chinook salmon have water when they go up. I don't see this kind of coordinated effort being made in Fraser. Maybe that is where the problem lies. I.E. People in court instead of working on finding a solution. The Cowichan is working because many groups have gotten together instead of working against each other. Go down to Cowichan River and just look at the cleanup they have made in estuary. Eelgrass transplanting has been done etc,and all of the bank work along the river. Every bit helps. Quit blaming low returns on hatcheries it just gets old.
 
blindly increasing production (which every hatchery has done) does not increase returns, at best it mitigates the decline.
Wow, you must really be dedicated to this cause to have surveyed every hatchery from California to Alaska so that you could make that statement. Or are you "Trumping" us with a bit of exaggeration?
 
Quit blaming low returns on hatcheries it just gets old.
All the things going on on the Cowichan you mention are necessary, in order to get rid of the hatcheries. Maybe some of you hatchery apologists should actually read some of the science. Beamish's paper would be a good start. https://www.wildsalmoncenter.org/content/uploads/2016/02/Beamish_etal_english.pdf

Out of all the hatcheries I'm sure there is an exception or two to the rule. Of course some hatcheries can not go away like the Columbia river where a decision was made to prioritize power generation over fish. But a river like the Cowichan, with the restorative work being done at some point will not need the smolt clones. and maybe read the discussion in Beamish et al about adaptation to warming waters section. Just because hatcheries in a simplistic sense make sense to you doesn't mean they are doing any good. SO yeah, it gets old and as time goes on the science is proving it.
 
Agreed. There are a number a projects happening on the Cowichan between the Lake Cowichan Enhancement society, Cowichan tribes hatchery, and many others. Also I hate to tell you but Catalyst Paper also is heavily involved in the water situation. Not only with its own water situation but working with everybody so the Chinook salmon have water when they go up. I don't see this kind of coordinated effort being made in Fraser. Maybe that is where the problem lies. I.E. People in court instead of working on finding a solution. The Cowichan is working because many groups have gotten together instead of working against each other. Go down to Cowichan River and just look at the cleanup they have made in estuary. Eelgrass transplanting has been done etc,and all of the bank work along the river. Every bit helps. Quit blaming low returns on hatcheries it just gets old.


The Cowichan, Alberni and Gold river all have a round table process ..were all the players have to sit down and work it out face to face...this process is working...need more of these area process as there is now accountability....
 
All the things going on on the Cowichan you mention are necessary, in order to get rid of the hatcheries. Maybe some of you hatchery apologists should actually read some of the science. Beamish's paper would be a good start. https://www.wildsalmoncenter.org/content/uploads/2016/02/Beamish_etal_english.pdf

Out of all the hatcheries I'm sure there is an exception or two to the rule. Of course some hatcheries can not go away like the Columbia river where a decision was made to prioritize power generation over fish. But a river like the Cowichan, with the restorative work being done at some point will not need the smolt clones. and maybe read the discussion in Beamish et al about adaptation to warming waters section. Just because hatcheries in a simplistic sense make sense to you doesn't mean they are doing any good. SO yeah, it gets old and as time goes on the science is proving it.

I would ask u how well the " wild only steelhead policy is working in BC?" As the last 20 plus years has showed how each river has slowly died a death of a thousand cuts in BC..... that being said think there needs to be a middle of the road thinking regarding fish propagation... a tool in the tool box as need....
 
Some good work from Beamish.
Many wild creatures can easily be domesticated with the lure of food. Conventionally raised hatchery salmon that have been hand fed would have a lack of skills to forage correctly in the wild. They do not get any predetor training at hatcheries do they? Kind of like sending pets into the wild and expecting it to compare survival rates with the wild reared animals. I'm not defending hatcheries at all but commenting on the paper.
 
I would ask u how well the " wild only steelhead policy is working in BC?" As the last 20 plus years has showed how each river has slowly died a death of a thousand cuts in BC..... that being said think there needs to be a middle of the road thinking regarding fish propagation... a tool in the tool box as need....

Yes-- Does this ring a bell Derby ?? Not necessarily hatcheries, but hatcheries where necessary .
 
I would ask u how well the " wild only steelhead policy is working in BC?" As the last 20 plus years has showed how each river has slowly died a death of a thousand cuts in BC..... that being said think there needs to be a middle of the road thinking regarding fish propagation... a tool in the tool box as need....

Yeah its been working great in Cowichan its really thinning out steelhead anglers not having a hatchery.
 
All the things going on on the Cowichan you mention are necessary, in order to get rid of the hatcheries. Maybe some of you hatchery apologists should actually read some of the science. Beamish's paper would be a good start. https://www.wildsalmoncenter.org/content/uploads/2016/02/Beamish_etal_english.pdf

Out of all the hatcheries I'm sure there is an exception or two to the rule. Of course some hatcheries can not go away like the Columbia river where a decision was made to prioritize power generation over fish. But a river like the Cowichan, with the restorative work being done at some point will not need the smolt clones. and maybe read the discussion in Beamish et al about adaptation to warming waters section. Just because hatcheries in a simplistic sense make sense to you doesn't mean they are doing any good. SO yeah, it gets old and as time goes on the science is proving it.

Your not even in our area to be honest? Do you understand our watershed?

I have to say I find this laughable. I disagree with you from actually working at some of them with boots on that ground and not theory//forum. They do work, but also need stream restoration as well as monitoring. You cant just put fish in. As for wild debate. What do you honestly think we have lots of wild fish? Do you think because one is unmarked it didn't come from a hatchery? Come on most of them are raised by hatchery and a lot of us dont clip them. So what you think is wild really isn't. I am sorry but you live in a fantasy world if you think we can rebuild wild stocks at same levels as we used too. DFO even knows that.

If we shut off our hatcheries on Vancouver Island alone we wouldn't have a fishery. Same goes in US. These forums sometimes!
 
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Your not even in our area to be honest? Do you understand our watershed?

How do you know where I'm from and what I know? Not that I need to justify it to you, but I'm from West Vancouver, spent decades fishing lower mainland and Vancouver Island rivers, including Cowichan and Stamp, on north Island Keogh, Cluxewe, Nahwiti. I did a biology degree at UBC focusing on fisheries, although I decided not to do a masters, many of my friends did working under guys like Carl Walters. I worked at the Capilano Hatchery for a time. At one time I did believe in hatcheries, but the body of evidence is so large now questioning their effectiveness I would like to see them mothballed where possible.
As an FYI its "You're not even from...", not "Your not even from......"

I have to say I find this laughable. I disagree with you from actually working at some of them with boots on that ground and not theory//forum. As for wild debate. What do you honestly think we have lots of wild fish? Do you think because one is unmarked it didn't come from a hatchery? Come on most of them are raised by hatchery and a lot of us dont clip them. So what you think is wild really isn't. I am sorry but you live in a fantasy world if you think we can rebuild wild stocks at same levels as we used too. DFO even knows that. If we shut off our hatcheries on Vancouver Island alone we wouldn't have a fishery. Same goes in US. These forums sometimes!

I guess I'd have to question who is living in the fantasy world. You have a ambitious, thorough study that looked specifically at the Cowichan river and whats happening in the estuary and even beyond. They sampled throughout the SOG. Its not extrapolating data from another system. It was done in the Cowichan, although likely relevant to other systems! the basic finding is that hatchery smolts have such low survival that there is little difference between the number of progeny returning from a pair of Chinook used as broodstock or if they were just left to spawn naturally. Its all from the study, not made up - read it. So essentially millions of $ are spent to feed the seals, mergansers, gulls and herons, and many of the smolts likely die of disease once their antibiotics are removed. So because you have worked with the people there (whom I'm sure are well intentioned and dedicated) and have seen all the smolts being raised that, "Trumps" the actual science? That's like the climate deniers knowing warming is not real because it was a cold last year in their area and the science is not real.

Not covered in the study, but it certainly could be speculated that wild fish survival is negatively impacted by the annual bonanza of plump hatchery clones being flushed into the estuary. The congregation of predators for the unnatural flooding of the estuary with smolts probably means some wild smolts get eaten that otherwise may not have. Wild smolts do not all migrate to the estuary at the same time, studies have shown they vary in age from 1 month to 17 months. There is considerable concern about Atlantic diseases being spread to pacific salmon, seems even more possible that hatchery smolts, which are more prone to disease could spread it to wild members of their own species. You can call this paragraph fantasy if you like, as its not from the study.

Perhaps the most concerning aspect of relying on hatchery smolts (in any river system) is the future. The SOG has warmed 1 degree in the last 50 years, its likely to do the same over the next 50. From the study: "Thus, it is possible to consider that the population structure in fresh water is an evolution of adaptation to conditions in the ocean in the immediate area of the ocean adjacent to the river. The concern is that as the Strait of Georgia continues to warm, it may be the evolved resiliency of the wild fish that are best able to adapt to the variability associated with the changing nearshore environment." This of course is not new, it has been known since Darwin theorized about it - Natural selection DOES matter.

I get it that the hatchery and and wild stocks mix on the spawning ground and there are no truly wild fish on the river anymore after decades and tens of millions of factory smolts being produced , and that's really a reason that hatcheries can cause significant damage to the gene pool because you can't separate them, and just another compelling argument against hatcheries, but that's not the subject of this paper . Substitute "naturally spawned" for anytime I mention "wild'.
 
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How do you know where I'm from and what I know? Not that I need to justify it to you, but I'm from West Vancouver, spent decades fishing lower mainland and Vancouver Island rivers, including Cowichan and Stamp, on north Island Keogh, Cluxewe, Nahwiti. I did a biology degree at UBC focusing on fisheries, although I decided not to do a masters, many of my friends did working under guys like Carl Walters. I worked at the Capilano Hatchery for a time. At one time I did believe in hatcheries, but the body of evidence is so large now questioning their effectiveness I would like to see them mothballed where possible.
As an FYI its "You're not even from...", not "Your not even from......"



I guess I'd have to question who is living in the fantasy world. You have a ambitious, thorough study that looked specifically at the Cowichan river and whats happening in the estuary and even beyond. They sampled throughout the SOG. Its not extrapolating data from another system. It was done in the Cowichan, although likely relevant to other systems! the basic finding is that hatchery smolts have such low survival that there is little difference between the number of progeny returning from a pair of Chinook used as broodstock or if they were just left to spawn naturally. Its all from the study, not made up - read it. So essentially millions of $ are spent to feed the seals, mergansers, gulls and herons, and many of the smolts likely die of disease once their antibiotics are removed. So because you have worked with the people there (whom I'm sure are well intentioned and dedicated) and have seen all the smolts being raised that, "Trumps" the actual science? That's like the climate deniers knowing warming is not real because it was a cold last year in their area and the science is not real.

Not covered in the study, but it certainly could be speculated that wild fish survival is negatively impacted by the annual bonanza of plump hatchery clones being flushed into the estuary. The congregation of predators for the unnatural flooding of the estuary with smolts probably means some wild smolts get eaten that otherwise may not have. Wild smolts do not all migrate to the estuary at the same time, studies have shown they vary in age from 1 month to 17 months. There is considerable concern about Atlantic diseases being spread to pacific salmon, seems even more possible that hatchery smolts, which are more prone to disease could spread it to wild members of their own species. You can call this paragraph fantasy if you like, as its not from the study.

Perhaps the most concerning aspect of relying on hatchery smolts (in any river system) is the future. The SOG has warmed 1 degree in the last 50 years, its likely to do the same over the next 50. From the study: "Thus, it is possible to consider that the population structure in fresh water is an evolution of adaptation to conditions in the ocean in the immediate area of the ocean adjacent to the river. The concern is that as the Strait of Georgia continues to warm, it may be the evolved resiliency of the wild fish that are best able to adapt to the variability associated with the changing nearshore environment." This of course is not new, it has been known since Darwin theorized about it - Natural selection DOES matter.

I get it that the hatchery and and wild stocks mix on the spawning ground and there are no truly wild fish on the river anymore after decades and tens of millions of factory smolts being produced , and that's really a reason that hatcheries can cause significant damage to the gene pool because you can't separate them, and just another compelling argument against hatcheries, but that's not the subject of this paper . Substitute "naturally spawned" for anytime I mention "wild'.

You and your anti fishing buddies like Watershed watch and others are determined with studies armed and attending meetings to get our hatcheries/fisheries closed. Like I said your dreaming in theory it is all theoretical. If you mothball hatcheries were done. Thanks guys I am out of this discussion.
 
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You and your anti fishing buddies like Watershed watch and others are determined with studies armed and attending meetings to get our hatcheries/fisheries closed. I am out. Like I said your dreaming in theory. If you mothball hatcheries were done.
How do you lump California in with "anti fishing buddies" ? I thought he made some good points for discussion.
 
SV..come on we all know that stopping fishing is the answer...look at how in 20 years of no coho retention the Thompson River Coho stocks are at all time....oh sorry no change. Well then look at the fabulous rebound of Fraser River Sockeye stocks since all commercial and recreational fishing closed...I mean their numbers are...opps in the tank. Ok but look at how much money this effort has saved the Canadian tax payer...not a dime spent on fixing the problem....hooray!!! Applying this methodology to Chinook should work because good things happen on a third attempt...don't they? BUT SERIOUSLY...what is the definition of insanity???? ummm ....repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. BTW..we all know that if not for US hatchery fish many of us would not be fishing because the local waters would be wet desserts void of life...and our resident killer whales would all be long gone by now.
 
Whoever thinks that our near-urban watersheds can sustain abundant wild-only salmon stocks is a foolish dreamer. There are many streams in southern BC and the lower 48 that had once thriving salmon populations but no more. They'd be happy to have hatchery clones over the no salmon as is.
 
SV..come on we all know that stopping fishing is the answer...look at how in 20 years of no coho retention the Thompson River Coho stocks are at all time....oh sorry no change. Well then look at the fabulous rebound of Fraser River Sockeye stocks since all commercial and recreational fishing closed...I mean their numbers are...opps in the tank. Ok but look at how much money this effort has saved the Canadian tax payer...not a dime spent on fixing the problem....hooray!!! Applying this methodology to Chinook should work because good things happen on a third attempt...don't they? BUT SERIOUSLY...what is the definition of insanity???? ummm ....repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. BTW..we all know that if not for US hatchery fish many of us would not be fishing because the local waters would be wet desserts void of life...and our resident killer whales would all be long gone by now.
The Columbia and other US hatchery fish primarily migrate up the West Coast of the Island and come back the same way. If they were to migrate as smolts up through the Broughton past the Fish Farms they would meet the onslaught of deadly Sea Lice and disease that awaits the Thompson Coho and Fraser River Sockeye smolts. That to me is the true definition of insanity allowing this to continue year after year hoping they can make it past the wall of death alive and well. Are you suggesting we need Fraser Sockeye hatcheries?
 
Whoever thinks that our near-urban watersheds can sustain abundant wild-only salmon stocks is a foolish dreamer. There are many streams in southern BC and the lower 48 that had once thriving salmon populations but no more. They'd be happy to have hatchery clones over the no salmon as is.
I agree Chris. That is going to be the choice going forward. I personally would prefer to catch clones then no Salmon at all
 
BUT SERIOUSLY...what is the definition of insanity???? ummm ....repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. B

Absolutely agree, doing exactly the same thing at close to now 150 hatcheries in BC, large and small. Pumping out more and more over-fed, disease prone smolts over and over and over again- for close to 50 years now, and seeing returns decline constantly IS the definition of insanity. As Dr Beamish says" Continuing to do what we are doing and hoping that the next year will be better makes little sense."

Each system has its own issues. I don't advocate shutting US hatcheries on the Columbia, its their business and they made a decision to replace the wild runs with hatcheries and utilize their rivers for hydroelectric power. That is a done deal, those facilities can not be shut down as the habitat cant be rehabilitated. The Capilano and Seymour would have no fish without hatcheries, those rivers have been sacrificed for water supplies for the GVRD. The Vedder was diked and channeled and its rearing habitat sacrificed for agricultural land, it cant be returned to a fully functioning ecosystem .

But this thread was titled the Cowichan River Chinook, where a huge amount of research has been done, and has shown much higher mortalities for hatchery clones, so much so that they are contributing almost nothing incremental to the run. Natural escapement is at or above target levels. Great habitat and water quality work has been done. If there is a Chinook run (the coho run is not so well studied) anywhere in the SOG that is a candidate to pull back on production, and maybe in the not too distant future eliminate the hatchery Chinook production, this appears to be the one since the chinook hatchery operation is doing little except feeding predators anyhow. As the climate changes, and our waters warm, we are going to need bastions of naturally spawning fish populations as the ones supported by hatchery clones may be unable to adapt.
 
Terrin, no not implying sockeye hatchery production, only stating that simply stopping all ocean fishing isn't the solution to their recovery. Obviously far more importance should be given to make sure returning adults that enter fresh water are allowed to proceed to the spawning grounds unimpeded, that the spawning beds and water flows are restored/maintained to allow the maximum success of their spawning efforts and that juveniles are not exposed to toxins, viruses and human caused sea lice populations. Hatcheries (Chinook & Coho) on specific systems that have little or no impact on wild populations are necessary to provide stability while the wild fish recover over the long term. As DFO is presently doing nothing or very little for the recovery of wild fish I have declining faith that I will see much improvement on wild fish populations in my lifetime. My kids will only hear about how many salmon used to be in the streams each fall. The Cowichan is one of too few good news stories, we need more of them.
 
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