Check out how DFO is handling Thompson River Steelhead consultation.

[OldBlackDog]

https://www.facebook.com/…/a.22391514778…/1027189154120172/…

This was passed along from an old friend . I re-post it here as a signal to those who may be involved in the federal government's process around listing Interior Fraser Steelhead (principally Thompson and Chilcotin stocks) as endangered under Canada's Species At Risk Act.

If ever you wondered where DFO is coming from on the consultation agenda they've developed to address the Committee on the Status of Endangered Wildlife in Canada's recommendation that those steelhead be listed as endangered, wonder no more. For DFO staff to cite data known to grossly underestimate the real commercial fishery steelhead catches in Johnstone Strait and everywhere else up and down the coast for First Nations interests to exploit in their, by invitation only, private sessions with DFO is criminal. The listed conclusions from "DFO South Coast (Johnstone Strait) staff are outrageous. Heads should roll for such blatant evidence of bias.



Island Marine Aquatic Working Group
Yesterday at 11:56 AM ·
Steelhead (SARA Listing) Consultations: November 2 and 15
IMPORTANT POINTS FOR ATTENDING!

If listed, 60 day window closures will be implemented in:
• Strait of Georgia (including Areas 14-18, Area 28 and 29),
• Johnston Strait (Area 11-13 and Area 111),
• Strait of Juan de Fuca (Area 19 and 20),
• Fraser River
• West Coast of Vancouver Island (Area 21, 121-127, Area 26-27).

Conclusions from DFO South Coast (Johnston Strait) staff:
• “Even when steelhead abundance was high and fishery effort was at it’s peak, there were little encounters”.
• Encounters occur primarily July through September NOT October
• No DNA to determine if fish encountered are Interior Fraser or Vancouver Island stocks.
• Area 12 test fishery (Round Island) 30 years of data, only encountered a total of 190 steelhead
• Over 50 years, purse seine test fishery in Johnston Strait encountered a total of 497 steelhead.
• Area 12 seine average CPUE from 1990 through 2017 have been 0.015 steelhead.
• TWO (2) steelhead caught in historic guide look book data from Area 111 and 127.
• Sale slip data from period when steelhead were allowed to be retained indicates an average of 1300 steelhead encountered.

These closures, if steelhead are listed, will impact and restrict Section 35.1 and other fisheries. We highly encourage you to attend and put forward your wisdom, knowledge, experience and concerns.

IMAWG can provide you will data materials if needed.

November 2, Coast Discovery Inn, Campbell River 9:00am to 3:00pm
November 15, Vancouver Island Conference Center, Nanaimo 9:00am to 3:00pm

RSVP the SARA program at sara.xpac@dfo-mpo.gc.ca or call 250 -720-4445.

 

[agentaqua]

I think you would benefit from an understanding of fisheries management, OBD.

The Crown (i.e. DFO and any other Federal Department) has a fiduciary duty to consult and accommodate FN when their (harvesting) rights and/or Title may be infringed. This is done on a bi-lateral level with any potentially-infringed FN - and has been done for many years - and where they haven't done it - often been taken to court about it - and most often been directed by the courts to discharge their fiduciary duty. You can browse those decisions and the rationale for those decisions at: https://www.canlii.org/en/#search/j...e&text=Aboriginal harvest rights consultation

This is commonly called a Tier II (government to government) consultation verses a Tier III consultation (all user groups). IMAWG is a collective administration of FNs that facilitates those consultations.

 

[OldBlackDog]

I understand that. I am sure Bob does as well, having his background.


I think the point is “ For DFO staff to cite data known to grossly underestimate the real commercial fishery steelhead catches in Johnstone Strait and everywhere else up and down the coast .
That becomes the question.

Is the Cost to save the Thompson River Steelhead just to much?
Has DFO or Ottawa decided to kill the listing?

Since they the Government have done nothing in regards to other salmon listed, one wonders if this is just so much window dressing.

I think you would benefit from an understanding of fisheries management, OBD.

The Crown (i.e. DFO and any other Federal Department) has a fiduciary duty to consult and accommodate FN when their (harvesting) rights and/or Title may be infringed. This is done on a bi-lateral level with any potentially-infringed FN - and has been done for many years - and where they haven't done it - often been taken to court about it - and most often been directed by the courts to discharge their fiduciary duty. You can browse those decisions and the rationale for those decisions at: https://www.canlii.org/en/#search/jId=ca,bc&sort=decisionDate&text=Aboriginal harvest rights consultation

This is commonly called a Tier II (government to government) consultation verses a Tier III consultation (all user groups). IMAWG is a collective administration of FNs that facilitates those consultations.

 

[agentaqua]

I understand that...

ok - if you say so..

...First Nations interests to exploit in their, by invitation only, private sessions with DFO is criminal...

I agree with your other points.

 

[OldBlackDog]

Once again you do not address the post.
You purposely add what you want to argue about.

Please do so with Bob on his site if you do not like his opinion.

I note nowhere do you defend or care what happens to the Thompson stock.

ok - if you say so..
I agree with your other points.

 

[agentaqua]

Once again you do not address the post. You purposely add what you want to argue about. Please do so with Bob on his site if you do not like his opinion. I note nowhere do you defend or care what happens to the Thompson stock.

If you re-read what I wrote:

ok - if you say so..I agree with your other points.

Instead - I am holding you accountable for your post:

...First Nations interests to exploit in their, by invitation only, private sessions with DFO is criminal...

and providing a correction to your invalid statements about FN consultation by providing factual, defensible and a legal narrative instead of yours (or Bob's - or maybe it is the same person) - for the benefit of others on this forum. If it was Bob's "opinion" or post - that just confirms what we have been saying all along about how Bob's posts are inflammatory and erroneous - and maybe just a bit racist - as well.

 

[wildmanyeah]

They wont be listed for all the same reasons cultus lake sockeye and other endangered salmon stocks receive a do not list recommendation.

Social and economic reasons.

The economy is more important then these fish. A 60 day total finfish closure is totally laughable. Just be happy ENGO groups are not pushing for it.

 

[searun]

Pay close attention to the CSAS paper when it comes out...some of those quotes likely came from that paper....so a spoiler alert. And, as was stated previously the Fed's have a duty to consult and we have seen precisely this approach (DFO - FN's) many times on other issues, so no conspiracy.

 

[OldBlackDog]

They wont be listed for all the same reasons cultus lake sockeye and other endangered salmon stocks receive a do not list recommendation.

Social and economic reasons.

The economy is more important then these fish. A 60 day total finfish closure is totally laughable. Just be happy ENGO groups are not pushing for it.

And that is the point isn’t it. Soon there will be no fish to worry about.

 

[browningmirage]

Curious, as I'm new here. How are DFOs catch reports for steelhead underestimating the total steelhead catch in the mentioned fisheries?

 

[searun]

I would ask the expert who made those claims of false or under-reported catches....Bob over to you?

 

[Dave]

I would ask the expert who made those claims of false or under-reported catches....Bob over to you?

I have some background to that claim .. for several summers back in the 70's I was employed by the IPSFC and based out of Tofino . My job was to visit fish buying stations in Tofino and Ucluelet, sampling troll caught sockeye for scales to determine the origin of stock passing by the west coast. I was also to tally numbers of sockeye caught by collecting and tabulating the numbers caught. I saw each boats total tally of all species and often dug through totes of iced fish for my daily quota (240) of scales. All though I often saw steelhead in these totes, they were not listed on the tally slips ( there was not even a space on the tally slip for steelhead ) and was told by the buyers they were purchased as coho. Also, many fishermen simply kept steelhead for there own use. During my time there I saw about 20 unlisted steelhead, and I can say I have eaten at least one of these "coho. So yeah, it happened then and I have no reason to think it doesn't happen now.

Hooton's first book, "Skeena Steelhead", documents this non reporting of steelhead catches as well.

 

[agentaqua]

I would ask the expert who made those claims of false or under-reported catches....Bob over to you?

Thanks searun. Gave me my morning chuckle....

 

[agentaqua]

Hooton's first book, "Skeena Steelhead", documents this non reporting of steelhead catches as well.

Outside of depending on Bob's already proven bias and inaccuracies - I think all sectors - including the rec sporty sector - have some steelhead mortalities - sometimes as either targeted catch, bycatch or catch and release mortalities.

As previously mentioned - the Fraser is arguably the most complex and difficult wrt managed mixed-stock fisheries AND issues around global warming impacts to instream temperatures and those effects on water quality including oxygen, stress, disease triggers, and associated effects.

 

[wildmanyeah]

Outside of depending on Bob's already proven bias and inaccuracies - I think all sectors - including the rec sporty sector - have some steelhead mortalities - sometimes as either targeted catch, bycatch or catch and release mortalities.

As previously mentioned - the Fraser is arguably the most complex and difficult wrt managed mixed-stock fisheries AND issues around global warming impacts to instream temperatures and those effects on water quality including oxygen, stress, disease triggers, and associated effects.

That's not really what we are discussing what were are discussing is the accuracy of catch reporting and if this fish are important enough to stop fishing to save.

Using historic catch data from when steelhead were abundant is problematic because they were counted as coho if, counted at all. That's consistent with retired fisheries officers who I have talk to.

The catch data now is probably pretty accurate wrt to commercial fishing. Altho I am sure they will do with Steelhead with what they have done with cultus lake sockeye, The odds of intercepting one is a fishery is low because there simply is not that many. I believe Cultus lake sockeye about 20% get intercepted in sockeye fisheries is what they try to limit to and most of that logic is dependant on the fact that their is just so few of them. It's a statistical game, That's assuming they don't all migrate together and there's perfect spacing of them throughout their historic window.

 

[Dave]

Outside of depending on Bob's already proven bias and inaccuracies - I think all sectors - including the rec sporty sector - have some steelhead mortalities - sometimes as either targeted catch, bycatch or catch and release mortalities.

As previously mentioned - the Fraser is arguably the most complex and difficult wrt managed mixed-stock fisheries AND issues around global warming impacts to instream temperatures and those effects on water quality including oxygen, stress, disease triggers, and associated effects.

Hmmm, looks like another masterful deflection by aa. Perhaps you might want to read Bob's book regarding the lack of steelhead reporting by commercial fishers. I believe he also has pictures so it isn't all bias on his part.

 

[wildmanyeah]

I do find it interesting now compared to last year. Where it sure seems like now that people have seen the 60 day closure window suddenly these fish are not worth saving...

It sure seems like people want business as usual and just hope that ocean survival rates increase.

 

[agentaqua]

That's not really what we are discussing what were are discussing is the accuracy of catch reporting and if this fish are important enough to stop fishing to save.

Using historic catch data from when steelhead were abundant is problematic because they were counted as coho if, counted at all. That's consistent with retired fisheries officers who I have talk to.

The catch data now is probably pretty accurate wrt to commercial fishing. Altho I am sure they will do with Steelhead with what they have done with cultus lake sockeye, The odds of intercepting one is a fishery is low because there simply is not that many. I believe Cultus lake sockeye about 20% get intercepted in sockeye fisheries is what they try to limit to and most of that logic is dependant on the fact that their is just so few of them. It's a statistical game, That's assuming they don't all migrate together and there's perfect spacing of them throughout their historic window.

Agree w your comments. Catch monitoring and reporting is important - as is enforcement.

However - what "reporting" does the rec fleet do - either on the salt chuck or in the FW? How do they figure-out a TAC for the rec fleet on the salt chuck and the FW?

 

[Whitebuck]

**** load of FN netting on lower Fraser again. Guess this will mop up the last of our chum and coho for the season and any late returning steelhead.
Pretty sweet this is timed perfectly with a lot of peak of the coho returns for a lot of our lower Fraser tribs.
Buddy is down below Port Mann and the seals and sea lions are lined up behind the boats feasting on the bycatch being thrown overboard. We wonder why we have so many seals in our rivers?
Would love to know how much time AA actually has spent on any river system within the Skeena or Fraser over the last 25 years. It’s really odd that the people who are on the water continuously over the years are coming up with the same conclusions. Must be a conspiracy...

 

[agentaqua]

speaking of "deflection"...