Canadian Tax Dollars going to good use...fish farm bailouts...

You guys haven't changed a bit.

You could always just give up and just say you don't like it, instead of trying to sound like you have a rational reason behind your opinion...

Taken for GLG's Post above: "There are a few pro-industry studies that try to dispute how bad it actually is - which is okay and all part of science - but there is not a single example world-wide where native wild stocks have cohabitated w/o any impact over the longer term. Not one. because if there were - you know the industry would be tripping all over itself to prove the critics wrong."

So CK prove us wrong. Show us some studies that prove conclusively that salmon net pen feedlots don't cause any long term negative impact to native wild stocks or the surrounding environment. Please provide the studies. You don't need to reply any other way.

If you can't or won't, then you are the pot calling the kettle black and you should follow your own advice and "just give up and say that you like it, instead of trying to sound like you have a rational reason behind your opinion..."
 
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Taken for GLG's Post above: "There are a few pro-industry studies that try to dispute how bad it actually is - which is okay and all part of science - but there is not a single example world-wide where native wild stocks have cohabitated w/o any impact over the longer term. Not one. because if there were - you know the industry would be tripping all over itself to prove the critics wrong."

So CK prove us wrong. Show us some studies that prove conclusively that salmon net pen feedlots don't cause any long term negative impact to native wild stocks or the surrounding environment. Please provide the studies. You don't need to reply any other way.

If you can't or won't, then you are the pot calling the kettle black and you should follow your own advice and "just give up and say that you like it, instead of trying to sound like you have a rational reason behind your opinion..."

You can't prove a negative.

It's a double-edged sword.

The reason you guys don't have conclusive proof that farms harm wild populations is the same for there being no conclusive proof they do not.

There are too many variables, some of which can be easily quantified, some not - and many of those are in direct human control, so the idea of stopping an activity without measurable impact is ridiculous.

The much evoked "Precautionary Principle" is also double-edged, as one could easily say that farming is a precaution to over-fishing and that after more than three decades without evidence of harm, it might not really fit...

So, here we are, with an opinion against based on little more than speculation and a high perception of risk (with a health dose of hypocrisy), and an opinion for based on more than 30 years of co-existence in the complete abscence of even a correlative relationship between the presence of aquaculture and the decline in wild salmon stocks.

I'm sure there are a whole pack of PhD students out there who would love to find something Justice Cohen missed... (Because we all know there was no harm shown from farms and the "primary factor" was poor ocean conditions)

Only time will tell.
 
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https://twitter.com/ClayoquotKid

It must be pretty draining having your job being focused on defending this industry. You spend so much time bad mouthing people. I'm surprised you haven't been sued the same way that your industry sues people speak their mind about your industry. Doesn't that eat at you? Well, the job title itself is a bit of an oxymoron; Sustainability Officer of an unsustainable industry. Seems like a losing proposition...

Anyways since this is your JOB....you still haven't clarified the FACTs about how much money your company has received in either subsidies or bailouts for your diseased 'product'. Never going to? Are the facts true then?
 
https://twitter.com/ClayoquotKid

It must be pretty draining having your job being focused on defending this industry. You spend so much time bad mouthing people. I'm surprised you haven't been sued the same way that your industry sues people speak their mind about your industry. Doesn't that eat at you? Well, the job title itself is a bit of an oxymoron; Sustainability Officer of an unsustainable industry. Seems like a losing proposition...

Anyways since this is your JOB....you still haven't clarified the FACTs about how much money your company has received in either subsidies or bailouts for your diseased 'product'. Never going to? Are the facts true then?

Well put!!! I totally agree!
However ClayoquotKid is just trying to remain employed and feed his family.
Hopefully he will be able to find meaningful employment when his industry collapses as he does a pretty good job defending the un defendable .
Perhaps he will become a Politician.
Sorry to sound so cynical.
 
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You can't prove a negative.
Oh - you mean like there is no ISAv in BC? hmm, I seem to remember DFO/CFIA/industry claiming there is no ISAv in BC.
The reason you guys don't have conclusive proof that farms harm wild populations is the same for there being no conclusive proof they do not.
OR - it is correlative; OR that the farms have been successful in affecting siting criteria so that we cannot tell; OR industry pundits have ignored the available models; OR industry pundits shoot the messenger rather than debating the available science; OR industry pundits shift the argument away from the science; OR industry pundits ignore the available science; OR...OR...OR...
There are too many variables, some of which can be easily quantified, some not - and many of those are in direct human control, so the idea of stopping an activity without measurable impact is ridiculous.
Many variables I agree - but the precautionary approach (developed by scientists and risk managers world-wide) is very clear and states (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle):

1/"in the absence of scientific consensus that the action or policy is harmful, the burden of proof that it is not harmful falls on those taking an action."; and
2/ "...lack of full scientific certainty shall not be used as a reason for postponing cost-effective measures to prevent environmental degradation."

The 2,400 scientists and risk managers in the Rio Conference, or "Earth Summit" in 1992, did not consider these recommendations to be "ridiculous", CK. Nor did the delegates in the 1998 Wingspread Conference on the Precautionary Principle - nor did the Commission of the European Communities. February 2, 2000 http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/health_consumer/library/pub/pub07_en.pdf - nor does the law of the European Union - nor did the delegates in the January 29, 2000 Cartagena Protocol on Biosafety.

In Fact NOBODY but industry pundits like yourself feel the Precautionary Principle is "ridiculous", CK. The only thing that is "ridiculous" is your arrogant dismissal of recommendations developed by many thousands of experienced professionals and legislators.
more than 30 years of co-existence in the complete abscence of even a correlative relationship between the presence of aquaculture and the decline in wild salmon stocks.
Here's just one of a number of journalled science articles that you just claimed do not exist:
http://www.lenfestocean.org/sites/default/files/fordmyersloprs2.08.pdf
http://www.plosbiology.org/article/....1371/journal.pbio.0060033&representation=PDF
 
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Oh - you mean like there is no ISAv in BC? hmm, I seem to remember DFO/CFIA/industry claiming there is no ISAv in BC.
OR - it is correlative; OR that the farms have been successful in affecting siting criteria so that we cannot tell; OR industry pundits have ignored the available models; OR industry pundits shoot the messenger rather than debating the available science; OR industry pundits shift the argument away from the science; OR industry pundits ignore the available science; OR...OR...OR...
Many variables I agree - but the precautionary approach (developed by scientists and risk managers world-wide) is very clear and states (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle):

1/"in the absence of scientific consensus that the action or policy is harmful, the burden of proof that it is not harmful falls on those taking an action."; and
2/ "...lack of full scientific certainty shall not be used as a reason for postponing cost-effective measures to prevent environmental degradation."
Here's just one of a number of journalled science articles that you just claimed do not exist:
http://www.lenfestocean.org/sites/default/files/fordmyersloprs2.08.pdf
http://www.plosbiology.org/article/....1371/journal.pbio.0060033&representation=PDF

So, nothing new?
 
https://twitter.com/ClayoquotKid

It must be pretty draining having your job being focused on defending this industry. You spend so much time bad mouthing people. I'm surprised you haven't been sued the same way that your industry sues people speak their mind about your industry. Doesn't that eat at you? Well, the job title itself is a bit of an oxymoron; Sustainability Officer of an unsustainable industry. Seems like a losing proposition...

Anyways since this is your JOB....you still haven't clarified the FACTs about how much money your company has received in either subsidies or bailouts for your diseased 'product'. Never going to? Are the facts true then?

Thanks for posting the link to my profile Andrew - if I wasn't already comfortable standing behind my words and views I might consider that a bit of a bully tactic...

I suppose I'm OK coming on here and debating with obnoxious anonymous posters now and again - keeps it interesting.

As for the compensation figures - I don't have them. No idea. Don't think many people would in any company dealing with CFIA or DFO - and there are lots of them.

Maybe you should ask the commercial guys how much they get paid not to fish?

See how far that gets you.

*cue the "Deflection" rant...

Have a good one.
 
Ok I effed up... I reported that...

Thanks for the link. Here is another from your side that is worth a read.
http://www.aquaculture.ca/files/docu...per-Feb-14.pdf

We can all agree that when industry gets money from the government (my tax dollars) this is a bad thing.
According to your report your industry get around 6 million a year and growing.
Sorry folks that number should be 48 million a year and growing (2009 data)
See Table 5 in the PDF
How much for BC... I do not know.... but we can use a number that was supplied in this report.
Over the 2003 to 2009 period, subsidies to aquaculture have stayed relatively constant, at around 6% of the total value of production.
All we need is to find out what that "total value of production" is here in BC and we will have our number.
Something to consider is that we are giving our tax money to the benefit of the share holders of another country.
The question should be .... why can't they "suck the hind tete" of their own tax payers.
 
Why should any industry including oil get subsidies or guarantees to make money of something that hasn't been proved viable or necessary. If the thing can't survive without government subsidies then we do not really need it.
 
Why have a public twitter account if you are worried someone will see it?

Most of us post pics of ourselves fishing, or holding a fish or something. We aren't as hidden as you suggest.
 
Why have a public twitter account if you are worried someone will see it?

Most of us post pics of ourselves fishing, or holding a fish or something. We aren't as hidden as you suggest.

Sure, "rockdog", that is the same thing as having your name, job title and company posted.

I don't really mind, but it sure seems like there's a lot of this going on:

internet-tough-guy.jpg

That's fine though, I just chalk it up as:

haters-gonna-hate.jpg
 
So, nothing new?

So once again CK we get a short snippety answer which tries to be “oh so clever” but completely avoids the science, as usual. Agent has posted two scientific journal articles from the many that exist and once again you ignore them. Just as you have with all the links to the science that myself , Agent and Charlie have posted in the past.

You should be a politician. Your would be brilliant because you never answer anything factually. Instead you characterise everyone on here as a “hater” and paint yourself as a victim and your industry as benign and honest.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The “bully” here is your industry which risks the entire BC coastal ecosystem for its own gain and holds hostage all other interests and concerns. It runs it own propaganda machine which ignores and tries to discredit the huge amount of science and evidence that documents the impact of your industry without offering any science of its own to refute or in any way prove incorrect the papers quoted by Agent and others.

I repeat you make victims of us all and for you to paint yourself as some sort of martyr is laughable!
 
So once again CK we get a short snippety answer which tries to be “oh so clever” but completely avoids the science, as usual. Agent has posted two scientific journal articles from the many that exist and once again you ignore them. Just as you have with all the links to the science that myself , Agent and Charlie have posted in the past.

You should be a politician. Your would be brilliant because you never answer anything factually. Instead you characterise everyone on here as a “hater” and paint yourself as a victim and your industry as benign and honest.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The “bully” here is your industry which risks the entire BC coastal ecosystem for its own gain and holds hostage all other interests and concerns. It runs it own propaganda machine which ignores and tries to discredit the huge amount of science and evidence that documents the impact of your industry without offering any science of its own to refute or in any way prove incorrect the papers quoted by Agent and others.

I repeat you make victims of us all and for you to paint yourself as some sort of martyr is laughable!

Great points Englishman! So CK will you read the posted scientific links and consider what they say? Will you stand behind your 'sustainable and non-harmful industry' that you purport and provide intelligent, science/fact based rebuttal and perhaps back it up with some scientific peer reviewed research that supports your industry? Or will you just provide another short, cute, trying to be clever attempt to deflect or brush off what others are asking and questioning you about. Please show some data, facts, peer reviewed research and show us where we are wrong! Surprise us, we are waiting....
 
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Ever wonder why your "peer reviewed research" doesn't get the level of respect from regulators you think it deserves?

It is not because it is some great conspiracy to protect the interests of salmon farmers, it is because it is shoddy, unsupported, thoroughly flawed and based on biased assumptions.

Science is not about massaging data and collecting support for a hypothesis, it is about looking for things to invalidate it.

If any of the speculative, fill in the blanks pseudoscience created by the likes of Morton and Krkosek (and his wonderfully predictive models) actually mirrored what was happening in reality - it would certainly be a different story.

Fortunately, there is no evidence to be found looking at any number of historical returns which shows a negative impact which could be even remotely linked to the presence of farms.

The majority of people need not go further than this simple truth, but some, like you guys, seek to gather any type of material which supports your idea that farms are bad.

By constantly ignoring, or suppressing evidence which runs counter to the hypothesis of farms doing harm, opponents of aquaculture fail in not only scientific methodology - but logic as well.

There will most likely never be a paper written that definitively proves farms have no impact, because it is quite plain to see.

Just imagine the rest of the country looking at this scenario:

- Some fishermen are mad at salmon farmers because they think that the farms are killing the wild salmon they want to catch and kill,

- The fish keep returning in varying numbers all over the coast - regardless of the presence of farms,

- When the runs are low the fishermen get even madder at the farms, but don't stop fishing

- When the runs are high the fishermen shrug and say it must be ocean conditions, and keep fishing

If you guys can't see the hypocrisy and oh so delicious irony here, I can't help you.

So, there you go - I do like salmon farming, and that is my rational reason for it.
 
Ever wonder why your "peer reviewed research" doesn't get the level of respect from regulators you think it deserves?

It is not because it is some great conspiracy to protect the interests of salmon farmers, it is because it is shoddy, unsupported, thoroughly flawed and based on biased assumptions.

Science is not about massaging data and collecting support for a hypothesis, it is about looking for things to invalidate it.

If any of the speculative, fill in the blanks pseudoscience created by the likes of Morton and Krkosek (and his wonderfully predictive models) actually mirrored what was happening in reality - it would certainly be a different story.

Fortunately, there is no evidence to be found looking at any number of historical returns which shows a negative impact which could be even remotely linked to the presence of farms.

The majority of people need not go further than this simple truth, but some, like you guys, seek to gather any type of material which supports your idea that farms are bad.

By constantly ignoring, or suppressing evidence which runs counter to the hypothesis of farms doing harm, opponents of aquaculture fail in not only scientific methodology - but logic as well.

There will most likely never be a paper written that definitively proves farms have no impact, because it is quite plain to see.

Just imagine the rest of the country looking at this scenario:

- Some fishermen are mad at salmon farmers because they think that the farms are killing the wild salmon they want to catch and kill,

- The fish keep returning in varying numbers all over the coast - regardless of the presence of farms,

- When the runs are low the fishermen get even madder at the farms, but don't stop fishing

- When the runs are high the fishermen shrug and say it must be ocean conditions, and keep fishing

If you guys can't see the hypocrisy and oh so delicious irony here, I can't help you.

So, there you go - I do like salmon farming, and that is my rational reason for it.
I guess there is only one thing I can say to this... BULLSH!t !!!!!
 
Agreed......... With Charlie.

I agree with Charlie as well
Would add that I think the best thing to do with ClayoquotKid is let him talk to himself.
He seems to be the only one, with a very few exceptions, who can find any credibility in what he says
 
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