bob hooton steelhead blog

[Fishmyster]

The majority of Eulachon watersheds have decent WQ (poss exception Fraser and South). Substrate issues (i.e. clean sand or lack thereof and/or sand covered over w fines, etc) would be a more likely impact - as would diseases from fish farms (ISA and PRv).

Do you have any consistent water quality test results for Fraser or other euclachon spawning streams during the springs 1990-1995?? Good luck finding any! "more likely impact" isn't the scientific conclusion I am going for. Eulachon stock crash was coastal and happened the same time as coastal steelhead crash. Why not herring? Are herring exempt from fish farm disease and sea lice where as eulachon and steelhead are not? I'm still running with the tainted water theory. Again, just my opinion.

 

[Fishmyster]

If the hypothesis is that lower pH affects heterotrophic bacteria enough to cause nutrients to not decay from carcasses - one would need to see the limits of the bacterial decomp wrt pH, the pH in the streams, and the nutrient info.

Let me know when you find any of this stuff. It is all good info. Some reports I have read implied decomposition slowed down below ph 5.3. in lake acidification experiments. Considering heterotrophic bacteria is fed to the stream via ground water which receives its water thru the soils, a rain ph of 3.5 in 1993 might possibly shocked our soils and ground water just like bleach would shock a septic system. This is what I believe could vary well be how the algae didimo is bloomed. Just a theory of mine. I wish I had my own lab.

 

[agentaqua]

Do you have any consistent water quality test results for Fraser or other euclachon spawning streams during the springs 1990-1995?? Good luck finding any! "more likely impact" isn't the scientific conclusion I am going for. Eulachon stock crash was coastal and happened the same time as coastal steelhead crash.

pH is not as common of a WQ variable tested for and recorded annually coast-wide. Temps and conductivity are the most common variables. Eulachons are found in the larger, glacier-fed mainland streams - and there is quite a bit of info out there wrt which streams are consistent wrt Eulachon numbers. The Nass has been consistently one of the best Eulachon streams on the coast. I would be surprised if the pH of the Nass was marked different from the other 22 rivers in BC w Eulachon - or others in the US for that matter.

In addition - one would need to prove that: 1/ There has been an appreciable drop in stream pH , and 2/ that pH had an appreciable mortality on incubating Eulachon eggs.

Why not herring? Are herring exempt from fish farm disease and sea lice where as eulachon and steelhead are not? I'm still running with the tainted water theory. Again, just my opinion.

No - you are right. Herring are susceptible to particularly VHS, and poss ISA and PRv as well. Starting in 1994, there was a sudden simultaneous drop in returns to many rivers, most notably in the Fraser, Columbia and Klinaklini Rivers (Hay 1996). When did the herring crash?

 

[GLG]

Interesting subject.... here is a link that may tie a few things together.
Notice how the types of rocks play a role in pH.
http://www.ec.gc.ca/air/default.asp?lang=En&n=1F36EFBB-1&offset=13&toc=show

 

[UkeeDreamin]

Interesting subject.... here is a link that may tie a few things together.
Notice how the types of rocks play a role in pH.
http://www.ec.gc.ca/air/default.asp?lang=En&n=1F36EFBB-1&offset=13&toc=show

Geology plays a huge role - it isn't by accident that the streams flowing through the Rockies and its limestone are significantly more productive than coastal streams draining granite mountains. The Elk Valley cutthroat streams are world famous for their productivity and resulting resident stocks of trout!

Cheers!

Ukee

 

[Fishmyster]

pH is not as common of a WQ variable tested for and recorded annually coast-wide. Temps and conductivity are the most common variables. Eulachons are found in the larger, glacier-fed mainland streams - and there is quite a bit of info out there wrt which streams are consistent wrt Eulachon numbers. The Nass has been consistently one of the best Eulachon streams on the coast. I would be surprised if the pH of the Nass was marked different from the other 22 rivers in BC w Eulachon - or others in the US for that matter.

In addition - one would need to prove that: 1/ There has been an appreciable drop in stream pH , and 2/ that pH had an appreciable mortality on incubating Eulachon eggs.No - you are right. Herring are susceptible to particularly VHS, and poss ISA and PRv as well. Starting in 1994, there was a sudden simultaneous drop in returns to many rivers, most notably in the Fraser, Columbia and Klinaklini Rivers (Hay 1996). When did the herring crash?

Herring didn't crash. That was my point. I have already posted a DFO population graph. This just one of the factors that helps link the productivity to freshwaters issues.

Along with the crash in eulachon was a crash in S/h, coho and stream invertebrates coast wide. Alkalinity and DOC has played a big factor in protection in very few streams but most coastal streams have very low buffering abillity.

I ask you, what forces could cause a coast wide blanket change in stream productivity including invertebrate elimination and algae changes through out??? All this dates to start in 1993. If you consider any oceanic variables please explain how could they not effect herring equally?

 

[agentaqua]

Well - I'm sure you already know this - but unlike streams - the ocean has a carbonate buffering system....

 

[Fishmyster]

Well - I'm sure you already know this - but unlike streams - the ocean had a carbonate buffering system....

How does this explain a blanket fresh water algae change, invertebrate elimination and fish productivity crash chronologicaly matching to 1993?

 

[Fishmyster]

Well - I'm sure you already know this - but unlike streams - the ocean had a carbonate buffering system....

This is another topic that opens op some more chemistry questions of mine including the movement of elements. Contaminated low ph stream water mixing with higher ph ocean water causes contaminants to precipitate where? A rust stain from sunken machinery in the chuck doesn't move far over fourty years. Things that make you go hmmm.

 

[agentaqua]

How does this explain a blanket fresh water algae change, invertebrate elimination and fish productivity crash chronologicaly matching to 1993?

It's not supposed to explain it FM (kinda my point - and why I queried the date of the herring "crash") - just that what happens wrt pH changes and other WQ issues are very different in the ocean than in the FW - and there are many potential pressures on herring numbers besides any pH-related ones.

In other words - freshwater would be expected to NOT have the carbonate buffering system that the ocean has - so that if there was any large scale pH drop in FW habitats - one would not necessarily expect the same changes and results in the ocean - so that what is happening wrt herring (as an example) - might not be affected like fish in FW (as far as WQ changes - however, maybe simultaneous for things like diseases).

In other words - I would not expect herring stock trajectories to be a valid stressor response variable to use to track pH changes in the FW... or at least reacting in the same time frame to match changes in the FW - it would be both delayed and buffered, or so I would expect.

For ocean pH info see:

http://meopar.ca/uploads/Pepin-et-al-MEOPAR-Presentation-19-Feb-2015-9AM.pdf
http://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2016/mpo-dfo/Fs97-4-3070-eng.pdf
https://marineecologistmusings.word...d-in-ocean-acidification-research-and-action/

 

[agentaqua]

This is another topic that opens op some more chemistry questions of mine including the movement of elements. Contaminated low ph stream water mixing with higher ph ocean water causes contaminants to precipitate where? A rust stain from sunken machinery in the chuck doesn't move far over fourty years. Things that make you go hmmm.

Well it is complicated - for sure. However, coast-wide riverine/estuarine effects on the marine nearshore are known at a large scale - somewhat. There are also a number of researchers using isotopic analysis and laser ablation on otoliths in determining large-scale marine residence and timing on salmonids.

 

[Fishmyster]

It's not supposed to explain it FM (kinda my point - and why I queried the date of the herring "crash") - just that what happens wrt pH changes and other WQ issues are very different in the ocean than in the FW - and there are many potential pressures on herring numbers besides any pH-related ones.

In other words - freshwater would be expected to NOT have the carbonate buffering system that the ocean has - so that if there was any large scale pH drop in FW habitats - one would not necessarily expect the same changes and results in the ocean - so that what is happening wrt herring (as an example) - might not be affected like fish in FW (as far as WQ changes - however, maybe simultaneous for things like diseases).

In other words - I would not expect herring stock trajectories to be a valid stressor response variable to use to track pH changes in the FW... or at least reacting in the same time frame to match changes in the FW - it would be both delayed and buffered, or so I would expect.

For ocean pH info see:

http://meopar.ca/uploads/Pepin-et-al-MEOPAR-Presentation-19-Feb-2015-9AM.pdf
http://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2016/mpo-dfo/Fs97-4-3070-eng.pdf
https://marineecologistmusings.word...d-in-ocean-acidification-research-and-action/

The reference to herring stocks is to isolate the drop on west coast steelhead and salmon stocks to fresh water

 

[Fishmyster]

The reference to herring stocks is to isolate the drop on west coast steelhead and salmon stocks to fresh water

Well it is complicated - for sure. However, coast-wide riverine/estuarine effects on the marine nearshore are known at a large scale - somewhat. There are also a number of researchers using isotopic analysis and laser ablation on otoliths in determining large-scale marine residence and timing on salmonids.

What forces do you think exterminated all of the larger stream inverts in coastal streams during the 1990's? Do you think the arrival of didimo during the same era is just a coincidence?

 

[agentaqua]

What forces do you think exterminated all of the larger stream inverts in coastal streams during the 1990's? Do you think the arrival of didimo during the same era is just a coincidence?

You may well be onto something wrt FW impacts, Fishmyster. Would be interesting to put didimo in a tank and change pH levels and see what happens.

If you pattern the historic productivity trends with logging activity, temperature trends or excessive rain fall events there is no noticeable matches. I have patterned the region 1 productivity trends with rain chemistry and found the match! There has been a blanket kill off in productivity dating to 1993.

What scale(s) were you dealing with FM? riffle/pool - reach - upper/lower watershed - watershed - regional grouping? What taxonomic groupings? Did you examine pH -sensitive spp?

...Contaminated low ph stream water mixing with higher ph ocean water causes contaminants to precipitate where?

Well, there is a progression of interactions that precipitate various constituents at different times/areas along the continuum of an estaury/fjord. 1st thing that drops-out is the fines/silts (flocculation) - which are re-suspended at the river bottom - called the TMZ - or turbidity Maximum Zone. Along with the fines are attached ions on the fines, and detritus. In older estuaries with older rivers - that can often build-up as shoals and baymouth bars - if it is shallow enough. Then eventually - where the other nutrients are still suspended (e.g. carbon, phosphates, iron, and nitrates, esp.) and the fines have dropped-out allowing light penetration - there is a estuarine plankton bloom - year-round which may small fish such as smolts and herring take advantage of. The salt water entrains underneath this surface freshwater plume and slowly mixes in as the less saline surface layers thin out. The size of the river watershed determines the discharge plume size and extent - and changes seasonally with the hydrograph. Along the way - it slowly becomes more marine and less estuarine. Typically, near the coast in BC - the water is cool and less salty than farther offshore like offshore Haida Gwaii - and wind becomes more important in determining upwelling/downwelling events which markedly change marine WQ. Marine plankton also goes through succession - as nutrients become available, and then are used up - thereby changing the WQ further. That's the big picture, anyways.

 

[agentaqua]

Not sure how sensitive Eulachon eggs are to drops in pH - and whether or not the pH has dropped enough to be a contender for an explanation for Eulachon numbers. I would definitely look at the pH in the Nass - which has maintained reasonably high numbers of Eulachon numbers - unlike the other rivers in BC. My money is more on door-boat shrimp trawls, and PRv and ISAv.

 

[Bear]

You two need to get a room.You have hijacked this thread. If you were as knowledgeable as Bob Hooton you may have some intelligent information to contribute.

 

[Dave]

Dave, reaching for the popcorn ....

 

[Fishmyster]

Not sure how sensitive Eulachon eggs are to drops in pH - and whether or not the pH has dropped enough to be a contender for an explanation for Eulachon numbers. I would definitely look at the pH in the Nass - which has maintained reasonably high numbers of Eulachon numbers - unlike the other rivers in BC. My money is more on door-boat shrimp trawls, and PRv and ISAv.

Sorry for getting back to you so late. I was away hunting.

I'm glad to hear your money is on door boats and disease. I too like to put my money where my mouth is. So let's make a bet! I bet you $1000 that I can come up with more convincing scientific data linking the eulachon crash of the 1990's to acid rain than you can proving your other three options. I'm good for the money and a man of my word so don't worry about me backing out. In fact, because this thread is all about Bob Hooton, He is invited too. I know your out there Bob. Big opportunity for you to make me look like a fool! Let's have a science show down!!!

 

[Dave]

I'm a big fan of Bob Hooton ... right up there with David Anderson, imo. Imagine, an advocate for fish, not fishing ....
This debate will be interesting, whether or not Bob responds.

 

[Whitebuck]

Once again....first hand knowledge and people who are actually on the flows wins. The armchair computer biologists won't take Kennys easy money. Just like most of the other problems our fisheries are facing, the few that speak , are only out to hear their own voices heard. These multimedia heroes are killing our fisheries....luckily a few of us that actually put time on the rivers are trying to to change that!!!!