Anti -Hatchery or anti angler?

Derby

Crew Member
Anti-Hatchery or Anti-Angler?

by Carmen Macdonald

I've always been a pretty good reader. I consider my reading comprehension to be pretty solid. As I read over the history of our greater Columbia basin salmon and steelhead runs, the story laid out is pretty straightforward.



Euro-man came to region. Euro-man harvested the hell out of trees and salmon. Euro-man needed food and electricity also, so Euro-man placed over 200 dams within the basin. At the time, Euro-man understood that the dams, agriculture and growth would eliminate much of the productivity of the region's salmon, but that was cool because cheap power, irrigation, flood control and harvest of other natural resources would make the region actually livable. To replace the natural productivity of salmon that would be destroyed, man would construct hatcheries.



I clearly understand that there are some dramatic examples of over-harvest, a couple world wars and several injustices to fish alongside this concise history, but still, that's the snapshot.



Yet in the modern day, history is morphing. It's being rewritten. On the pages of Ifish, the declarations are specific. It wasn't the fact that we dammed the rivers, cut off access to a massive percentage of the spawning habitat, radically altered the temperature and flow regimes of the rivers and diked, rip rapped and built in the flood plains that created today's salmon situation. Nope, quite clearly it is proclaimed that it was the addition of hatchery fish that caused the decline of our great fish.

The law protects freedom of religion and the religion of wild fish is no different I suppose. But where this revisionist history is much more troubling is in the courtroom. The Native Fish Society, as well as the McKenzie Flyfishers have either launched lawsuits or filed notice of intent to sue the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife over hatchery fish. Their beef? That hatchery fish are impeding the recovery of wild fish.



They cite studies authored by Katryn Kostow and many others that show suppression to productivity based on the mixed spawning of hatchery and wild fish. In two such studies, one on the Clackamas and one on the Siletz, Kostow outlines "estimated carrying capacities" of wild fish in these rivers with the removal of hatchery fish. In these instances, the hatchery fish in question were removed, and now 15 or so years later, the wild fish have failed to respond. In each case, the reality of the wild population proves to be about half of Kostow's estimates.*







Looking at this graph of Siletz, what has been gained? I see a run that's the same as it was in the 1970's that's gone through a severe El Nino and bounced back to what it was. I also see a successful fishery that is now gone.





Unfortunately, reality doesn't seem to trump a good theory and these studies are regularly utilized as the basis for continued removal of hatchery fish throughout the region.



Political science was a passion of mine at Oregon State University. The key point of learning over four years in the subject was that you can understand any political move by understanding "who benefits." Because the political work of these groups include fish, I might also add, "what benefits" because surely the fish ought to be on the receiving end of some good stuff if we're going to court.

You can probably guess at this point that I believe these lawsuits are frivolous at best and extremely destructive at worst. Here's why.



In the late 1800's there was a collapse of Columbia River fish runs based on massive over-harvest. This time period is often documented in the literature. What is less documented is that the habitat, being intact, was flexible to the injustice and delivered two more harvest booms. This fact is important because the first hatcheries went in during the very late 1800's and more were added throughout the next 40 years, the period leading to the wartime harvest of 1941.*








It's too tough to post screen shots of the whole document, but here's a key excerpt (yellow).






By 1941, the dam building era was well underway, but it would not come to an end for 30 more years. Over a period of nearly 50 years, the Columbia Basin would be transformed from a salmonid ecotopia, to a modern industrial environment.



Harvest graphs from the period clearly outline the ramifications of dam building as harvest plummeted. It's important to note here, that the dramatic decline in harvest rates would have been even worse if it were not for hatchery production. Clearly, we cut off the productivity of the wild populations.



As we built dams throughout the region, we destroyed not only the elasticity of the populations to support high harvest rates, but the ability of the populations to sustain themselves at all.*


 


At the time, power, flood control, irrigation…they all made sense. I'd take a guess that put to a popular vote today, these projects still would, and do, command the approval of residents, by a landslide. The collective "we" made choices, conscious decisions, over these decades. Portland wanted water…the Bull Run complex was built and the watershed dammed. The Willamette and its tributaries were summarily dammed, most without fish passage. The Columbia and it's tributaries…all the same.



Power, flood control, irrigation and logging made this region livable.



Dams are a big deal. When someone wants to build one there are hoops, more hoops and then probably legal action to contend with prior to construction. Within these processes, "mitigation" for known destruction included the production of hatchery fish. There was clarity. When you cut off more than 10,000 miles of spawning habitat completely and change the temperatures and flows of the rivers that remain, you end up with remnant runs of wild fish in the small niches of habitat that persist.



Meanwhile, we zoned most of the remaining land for forestry, farming, industrial, residential and more. In smaller chunks the habitat was changed, altered… converted. Of course there were not environmental impact statements when, by little bits and pieces, flood plains were plowed under and planted, a parking lot was paved and hillsides logged. Many thousands of small injustices to the fish, none remarkable on their own, but in combination massive, removed the refuges and added to sediment and pollution loads.



Wild fish are incredibly adept at filling suitable habitat. That is exactly what they do today, and exist in numbers commensurate with the habitat that is left.



So who benefits by the revisionist history?



1. The preservation groups. A political entity is only as good as its latest campaign. Hatchery fish as the cause for the decline of wild fish is easy, actionable and sellable to membership.

2. Dam operators. In development of the watersheds and destruction of the habitat, funding for hatchery fish are the ongoing responsibility of power and utility companies. Get rid of the hatchery fish and these entities run the river and alleviate themselves of ongoing costs and grow profits. Even the City of Portland who pays for hatchery fish on the Sandy because the Bull Run complex has no fish passage sent in their letter stating "…the City believes that the current hatchery programs for spring Chinook are having a significant impact on the integrity of the natural origin fish." It's perfect logic. You have a mitigation responsibility with costs tied to hatchery fish. Instead of balking at costs, just get on the anti-hatchery bandwagon.



3. People who are anti-angler. In conversation with anglers who are fish preservationists, there is a common trend. Deep down, they loathe other anglers. Oftentimes it's due to differences in fishing techniques. Sometimes they just can't stand a crowd. But it seems that their goals of eliminating hatchery fish are really based upon eliminate the hatchery fish angler…and have the water to themselves.



Who loses?



1. Anglers. Fishermen have always been the push over in the middle of this debate. For the most part, we're realists. We're thankful the region was developed to advance our quality of life. We also like our fish. But with each hatchery cut, we lose opportunity, directly losing fish.

Those with solid experience and history here have witnessed fisheries become shadows of their former selves, with no tangible response from wild populations. Promises have been broken by the hundreds.



If you started steelhead fishing after 1992, I can't say that you've ever seen a really good steelhead fishery.



2. Communities. Hatchery fish create arteries through which dollars flow from urban to rural areas. With each program cut, the dollars stop flowing. The little tackle shop disappears, the burger joint goes away and the town constricts.



3. The fish. In the modern world, if resources cannot rally a mountain of support for their existence, they're eradicated. I love to fish. I'm not necessarily in love with fish. I think they're beautiful, amazing and inspiring creatures, but my connection with them is through a rod and reel, not on an emotional level. We're losing anglers with every fishery reduction. In losing anglers, we're losing the base of support that is truly the only way to ensure the species' ongoing survival.



What makes an actual difference for salmonids?



This whole debate started in the mid-1990's. I remember it clearly. El Nino crippled stocks throughout the region. EVERYBODY wanted answers. At the time, I worked at Frank Amato Publications. Obviously, our office was extremely concerned. Marty Sherman, then editor of FlyFishing magazine, laid out a fantastic argument that fingered hatchery fish as the cause: genetic drift, inferior genetics, feedlot type breeding. This was the case championed by Oregon Trout at the time.



I was 100% on board with Marty and the Oregon Trout mantra.



Even remember arguing with Nick Amato, editor of Salmon Trout Steelheader about it. Nick was incredibly calm. Growing up with Frank Amato as a father delivers an extremely tight relationship to these fish. Nick had the history to understand that runs cycle, based upon ocean conditions.



A flurry of management actions followed the massive El Nino of the mid 1990's. Removal of hatchery fish, downsizing of programs, changes in broodstock. I've paid attention to it all and while all the runs rebounded from the El Nino, only two examples fall outside the curve.

1. Oregon Coastal Coho. In the 1970's and 1980's it was Coho rather than Chinook salmon that commanded participation in ocean fisheries. As a participant who remembers the fisheries, they were amazing, world-class events. Within these monster fisheries, however, wild fish protection was weak. As we harvested masses of hatchery fish, we harvested wild fish right alongside them. Total exploitation rates ranged as high as 90% of the spawning population. It was egregious.



When the El Nino crippled the availability of fish, harvest was dramatically cut back. Maintaining lower exploitation rates of 10- to 15% since, the populations have once again expanded greatly. The anti-hatchery folks will say the expansion is due to the removal of hatchery fish. I urge anyone with a simple understanding of bar graphs to draw their own conclusions from the chart below.*






Did we save coho by removing hatchery fish, or simply by not harvesting 80% of the adults every year?



2. Columbia River Spring and Summer Chinook. In the winter of 1996, Mother Nature took control of the Columbia River migration corridor for salmon. Massive flooding overwhelmed the ability of the hydropower system to "control" river flow. Salmon smolts went over spillways and rode massive flows to an ocean that had rebounded from the El Nino. Following that year, federal judge James Redden ordered hydropower operators to meet flow and spill requirements for the benefit of migrating salmon.



The result of changes to the hydropower system was exponential growth in Spring Chinook and Summer Chinook runs. Fisheries that had been closed for 24 years were reopened. Quickly, we've come to take these fisheries for granted. New anglers know nothing different. Know nothing of the history.



On the contrary, we've now approaching twenty years of reductions to hatchery plants or complete elimination of hatchery runs. We have examples of rivers that have not been stocked with hatchery fish for a much longer timeline.



What are the results? From my perspective, the results are pretty obvious.

1. We've eliminated tons of fisheries, the economics that accompany them and the connection between tens of thousands of anglers and the resource.



2. The wild fish populations have persisted as they did in the presence of hatchery fish. They rise and fall bases on outmigration conditions and the fertility of the ocean on a given year. Nothing more, nothing less.



Why are wild fish, steelhead in particular, not responding to the reduction and/or elimination of hatchery fish? Why are results similar to the Columbia not being seen after 15 years?



My answer is cause and effect. Hatchery fish did not cause the decline of wild fish, therefor it seems a little absurd to believe that removing hatchery fish would create a rebound. This is what seriously chaps my hide. As these "suppression" studies roll out, no one is going back to quantify any results, or at least any meaningful results.



On January 27, 2011, Kathryn Kostow of ODFW delivered an update to her Clackamas River study and sent it out directly to wild fish groups. Within it, she cited a wild winter steelhead run numbering 3,100 adults as proof of the expansion of the population since the removal of hatchery summer steelhead. They only problem is, the wild fish numbering 3,100 did not exist. The actual number was 2,100, per PGE's direct fish count of wild fish ascending the dam. The actual run size of 2,100 and the 2010 run size of 2,200 are exactly similar to run sizes that existed when the hatchery summer steelhead were present.*


 

Notice the winter steelhead counts now, versus the 1980's. I challenge anyone to show a difference in the wild population.


*

And here's what we've given up for an increase of nothing in the wild population. A thriving summer steelhead fishery.*







Within Kostow's update, there was this gigantic out clause: "The population appears to be able to grow again, which should increase the chance for recovery of this ESA-listed species. Two factors, population grow rate and basin carrying capacity, will determine how rapid the population abundance will increase and how big it can become. Recent modeling results (still in progress) suggest that population growth could take as long [as] 5 or 6 generations and will continue to be influenced by external factors that influence smolt-to-adult survival, such as migration survival, ocean productivity cycles, and harvest rates.

"

In other words, there's a whole bunch of other factors that are much more important to wild fish survival than the presence of hatchery fish and Kostow has inserted her placeholder for the very real probability that no expansion of the wild run takes place.



What's been accomplished on the Clackamas and other rivers has not been an expansion of the wild runs, but destruction of the hatchery run and the promises made to anglers during the era of dam building.



At what point will we go back and test the hypothesis about wild and hatchery fish interactions on actual populations? We now have abundant case studies, yet the preservation groups ask for no validation.



I can only wonder if they're anti-hatchery fish for the sake of the resource or just simply anti-angler, anti-hatchery –fish-angler specifically. Given the lack of measurable success to date associated with the removal of hatchery fish, I can only believe the latter.*
 
This is about BC as well as the same no hatchery agenda was and is what the province sold.
 
unfortunately for the author of this piece, the evidence that hatchery fish suppress wild fish recovery is pretty rock solid. yes, lots of variables involved but controlling hatchery production is perhaps the only thing that we can reverse in this day and age. of course those who only are interested in their personal bag limits and season lengths, this author, are going to argue that more hatchery stocking, not less, is in order. we have been doing exactly that for decades now and we can not point to a single run of anadramous fish that have been recovered using that strategy, not a one. time for some fresh thinking and hatchery reform, i.e. fewer zombies released, has promise. will everything turn on a dime? of course not and that is where this authors aruguement breaks down. it took well over a hundred years to screw things up so looking backward on 5 or 10 years of effort is not likely to display astonishing results.

but then again, the anadramous fish have already returned to the Elwha, on their own. WDFW is probably quaking in its collective boots on that result as it is a direct blow to the hatchery mindset that is so common.
 
We are running this experiment right now here in BC.
Still a little early to tell and I have not read any papers here to say if it's working or not.
It does seem that the wild ones are doing better then the hatchery ones from my experience with coho.
That's just one river and each system may be different.
There is without a doubt that some hatchery are having great returns for all their runs.
It's seems to me that geneticist plays a role on how your returns do with the changing temps and parasite loads.
It may be best to let mother nature change the fish to suite the changing conditions.
I have heard of an experiment in letting the fish pair up and then using that knowledge to breed them.
Sure hope we have some people left in DFO to give us advice on this subject.
 
Perhaps a dumb statement.....but....I read that they only use wild stock for the hatchery stock and won't use clipped fish to keep the genetic integrity. Is this true?!

Also, with only around 5% of hatchery fish actually clipped.....how is it possible to really determine the effect either way?
In BC DFO hatcheries, all steelhead used for broodstock are wild, meaning adipose fin present, and all hatchery steelhead and coho are adipose clipped before release.
 
In BC DFO hatcheries, all steelhead used for broodstock are wild, meaning adipose fin present, and all hatchery steelhead and coho are adipose clipped before release.

Don't know about steelhead but not many coho are clipped.
I think the numbers I last heard were 10 to 15% clipped hatchery fish.
That percent might have fallen over the last few years with the budget cut backs.
So when we breed coho you don't know if it is wild or hatchery as the majority are non clipped.
Heck we don't even know if the fish are brother and sister.
GLG
 
Don't know about steelhead but not many coho are clipped.
I think the numbers I last heard were 10 to 15% clipped hatchery fish.
That percent might have fallen over the last few years with the budget cut backs.
So when we breed coho you don't know if it is wild or hatchery as the majority are non clipped.
Heck we don't even know if the fish are brother and sister.
GLG

I believe you are right. All steelhead are clipped, but not all salmon. Stamp is a prime example, pretty much most production now is from the hatchery. There are very few chinook spawning successfully in the wild, and in fact DFO doesn't really count on the wild spawn to contribute to the fishery. I think you would be hard pressed to find any genetically "wild" chinook in the system any more. So in cases like the Stamp what is the point of really worrying about it? Run the hatchery to produce a return that supports a vibrant fishery and call it a day. I seriously doubt the "wild fish" strategy will work in rivers where the wild fish are functionally extirpated anyway. Where's the recruitment coming from? Take a close look at the Nahmint - I don't see much recovery happening there, and now we are trying hatchery fish as a last ditch effort to keep the gene pool alive on a truly wild river. That's just the opinion of a greedy sportsfishermen who wants to play with them, but I would be prepared to buck up to make that happen if it improved my fishing on those rivers.

On other wild rivers that have been untouched by hatcheries, I can see the merits of the argument because there is at least a wild brood stock for recruitment.
 
the only hatchery program that showed promise made use of a 'spawning channel'. a natural channel off the main flow of a river. it was netted and blocked upper and lower. the pellet feed was cut by 75% forcing the smolt to forage in that channel teaching them that life is not that easy. the normal return for hatchery fish is about 1% of released numbers but in this case they returned about 8% which is astonishing. of course it was shelved because the numbers of surviving smolt diminished as a result of their having to fend for themselves before release and in the case of hatchery production, its all about numbers.

the local coho hatchery had 6,000 returnees. the spawned 120 pairs killing all the rest and using those they could for the food bank and the rest as a natural return to the river system. this is being done because of the chinook ESA listing on this river. unfortunately, the hatchery is about 7 miles up river from the mouth and any chinook returning are having to compete with those hatchery coho. just another example of hatchery fish impacting wild fish.
 
Why can't we have both? There are lots of streams in BC that have never had a hatchery program on them and therefore IMO can, and should stay as purely "wild" streams. Yes, they tend to be a little less accessible but surely those folks that are interested in a purely "wild" fishery would be willing to travel a little farther and work a little harder for that heightened experience?

It seems like a bit of a stretch to assume that the anglers that fish rivers that are already heavily enhanced can benefit from the removal of the hatchery if one beleives that catching a few fish is as important a part of the overall equation as catching a "wild" fish is. I for one suggest that it is. Even if the theory that wild fish will eventually outproduce hatchery fish is correct, assuming we should wait 100 years to see the benefits is nothing short of ridiculous. To me, insisting that anglers who are perfectly happy catching "zombies" or "rats" should be forced to deal with dramatically reduced opportunity in order to produce a so-called "wild fish" fishery is a selfish idea that speaks to the authors concerns regarding the motives being angler experience focussed vs fish focussed. IMO if you want a "wild" or "uncrowded" experience you should travel to wild and uncrowded places and in our province, and even on the island we are blessed with plenty of those.

I believe we should make sure we have well stocked hatchery streams near every community in coastal BC to provide oportunity for those who like that style of fishery. I also beleive that communities, businesses and other groups who see the benefit of this type of activity should be able to help pay for it. We need to start sharing these costs if we really want to move ahead with a productive hatchery system - removing the barriers associated with these types of public\private partnerships would be a great start.

We should also have carefully managed and protected wild systems for those who prefer that. Those communities, groups, individuals and businesses who feel they can benefit from this type of system should also be in a position to provide for the costs associated with the management and protection of these systems.

From a marine fishery and juvenile competition perspective, most anglers I know in the marine waters could care less if a fish is wild or hatchery. No one can tell the difference if the fish isn't marked anyway. Ask all the guys on WCVI or Haida Gwaii or Juan de Fuca if they mind catching all those US hatchery produced "rats" and "zombies". Does their opinion matter?

Juvenile competition in the marine areas shouldn't be a problem seeing as from what I've been told by the wild fish crowd that "wild" fish are such superior physical and genetic specimens they should have no problem competing with a bunch of hatchery "rats" and "zombies".

I say we should have our cake and eat it too. The province is surely large enough. Too often the concept that going out and actually catching a few hatchery fish is at least as worthwhile an exercise as trying to catch a wild fish gets lost in this debate that seems to be more about forcing values on each other rather than sharing them.

CP
 
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Hey CP, totally agree. We should be able to have both. I don't get all the hype about closing down hatcheries. I don't believe those that advocate that position are prepared for the next life time they will have to wait until natural production makes any positive impact. Meantime a whole generation of recreational anglers will quietly fade away. All you have to do is look at how the Province managed Steelhead to see that. They eliminated hatchery programs, closed down rivers and now wonder where all the rec anglers went??? Saying a wild fish is better for rec anglers to catch is like arguing that a fly caught steelhead suffered less stress than one caught on gear....its still a hook, same impact. Rec anglers value the opportunity to catch fish more than whether or not the are hatchery v wild.
 
hatchery programs were started about 1890 something on the columbia river. the simple reason was the commercials wanted more fish. that simple reason is still the only justification for hatcheries, propping up the commercial sector. eliminate the hatcheries and watch what happens to the commercial fishery.

thinking beyond your bag limit seems to be very hard for some folks. saving species from extinction is a worthy objective even if that means fewer fish to take home.
 
hatchery programs were started about 1890 something on the columbia river. the simple reason was the commercials wanted more fish. that simple reason is still the only justification for hatcheries, propping up the commercial sector. eliminate the hatcheries and watch what happens to the commercial fishery.

thinking beyond your bag limit seems to be very hard for some folks. saving species from extinction is a worthy objective even if that means fewer fish to take home.

Interesting, can you please point out specifrically which species of salmon is threatened with exticntion, and how the removal of hatcheries is going to prevent that? I beleive that thinking on both sides of the equation needs to change - if you really beleive that salmon are threatened with extinction as a species you are in serious need of a reality check my friend.

It is exactly this type of inflammatory, fear mongering, ill informed rhetoric that puts any hope of reasonable discussion in a tail spin.

Think beyond your crusade brother.

CP
 
It is exactly this type of inflammatory, fear mongering, ill informed rhetoric that puts any hope of reasonable discussion in a tail spin.

CP

multiple species of puget sound and coastal anadramous fishes are already ESA listed as either threatened or endangered. that is not 'fear mongering' those are the facts of the matter. of course you can simply choose to ignore this information and go your merry way, your choice. as a matter of also FACT there are numerous runs of anadramous fish that have already gone extinct. multiple drainages along JDF have not seen an andramous fish of any species in decades, extinct. a very long list for those curious enough to check things for themselves.

reasonable discussion should be recognizing the damage already done to anadramous fishes, the continuing damage being done by too many hatchery smolts and the pittfull attempts to protect wild fish wherever they may be.
 
multiple species of puget sound and coastal anadramous fishes are already ESA listed as either threatened or endangered. that is not 'fear mongering' those are the facts of the matter. of course you can simply choose to ignore this information and go your merry way, your choice. as a matter of also FACT there are numerous runs of anadramous fish that have already gone extinct. multiple drainages along JDF have not seen an andramous fish of any species in decades, extinct. a very long list for those curious enough to check things for themselves.

reasonable discussion should be recognizing the damage already done to anadramous fishes, the continuing damage being done by too many hatchery smolts and the pittfull attempts to protect wild fish wherever they may be.

A couple of things...

First, are you suggesting that a run of fish no longer returning to a given watershed equates to the extinction of a specific species? I can only asssume that you are considering each specific waterhsed to have its own "species" of salmonids inhabiting it. That is simply untrue and I believe you know that. Fear mongering and useless inflammatory rhetoric. Salmon are amazing colonizers and rebuild runs quickly if there is HABITAT to support them. This has been proven time and again. Fix the HABITAT in those rivers, use hatcheries to restsart the runs and viola - "extinction" over. Doesn't take 100 years either.

Second, are you suggesting that it is the existence of hatcheries that has playrd any kind of role in the removal of these salmon runs from these systems? That also is completely untrue and again, I believe you know that. Fear mongering and useless inflammatory rhetoric. Hatcheries perpetuate the species and put fish back in to rivers, they don't take them away. If you check a little closer I think you may find that destruction of HABITAT is the main culprit in the demise of salmon runs in your part of the world. Salmon have a hard time with dams, uncontrolled logging, urban development, agricultual water withdrawls, chemical spills etc, etc. They don't have a hard time getting along with others of the same species in the same river regardless of where they came from. Only "wild fish" purists do.

Reasonable discussion should consider the actual causes of the decline in salmon runs in any given system and deal with those causes. It should also consider all approaches to rebuilding runs and maintaining fisheries for people. I beleive hatcheries can and should play a big role in this.

Please get off the "wild fish are better" bandwagon, deal with all the facts, and consider the values of others as being as important as your own. We are where we are in terms of the rampant obliteration of habitat we've meted out on these species over the past 150 years. In most cases, there is no turning back the clock. Lets not make it worse by removing our ability to use hatcheries to agument stocks where we can, and hopefully also preserve and restore habitat to wild systems so we can have wild stocks as well.

I dont understand why, in your opinion, it has to be all or nothing. Can you please explain why we can't have both?


CP
 
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I can tell you for sure that there are a bunch of southern VI rivers that would be completely or nearly void of salmon if it wasn't for enhancement programs. And I am not talking about big production progams that spit out billions of fish to support a massive commercial fishery. I am talking about enhancement programs that carry and support stock to keep a small population alive in urban or near urban streams that are compromised and damaged. Take those enhancement programs away and salmon will disappear. Need prove of that? Well there are a number of south VI streams that used to have salmon and never were enhanced and are now and have been void of any salmon for many year. You think they miraculously come back some day? I wouldn't bet on it. More proof? Look over to Europe were most central European rivers and streams were full of salmon 100 - 150 years ago. After they raped and wrecked and rivers they never put hatcheries on them and the few wild salmon that survived the carnage never had a chance. They didn't come back if you leave them alone. Face it, in a toxic environment such as developed areas salmon need help to survive. And I take a hatchery salmon anytime over no salmon.
 
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