Do I need it ... No, but I want it. Rivian Truck

[ChinookExerciser]

The national news last night had a good segment on EV's. Can't find the one from last night but here is the old one. They revisited the video below on last night's episode.


Are electric vehicles ready for the mainstream in Canada?

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1448245315938

 

[GLG]

 

[wildmanyeah]

Just like I said and the poll confirms 50% of people are looking to buy EV as their next vehicle. Going to happen fast.

 

[ChinookExerciser]

TY here is the one from last night, they dive into the batteries.

 

[ziggy]

So the takeaway from the video is, nothing is perfect but ev’s even using coal generated electricity ( worst case scenario) are an improvement on internal combustion engines.

 

[ChinookExerciser]

ev’s even using coal generated electricity ( worst case scenario) are an improvement on internal combustion engines.

When coal is the source of power it's debatable apparently. Some reports have it as the EV being better and others don't. Every other situation the benefits from EV's far outweigh the negatives.

Electric charging stations are popping up faster than anyone thought. The only issues now seem to be is there are not enough electricars available to buy. Demand does not seem to be an issue.

 

[Fish Fingers]

https://postmediadriving.wordpress....th-the-hypocrisy-of-armchair-environmentalism

I hope to be able to afford a Rivian someday.
An interesting article on this subject.

There is so many articles like this, all based in facts, I am always amazed the mainstream media never pushes this info. Think they possibly may be controlled by people who are getting rich off of all this? hum.... I to though am going to enjoy all the new tech ect being brought to the market paid for by taxpayer funded government grants/contracts.

However I do so for my enjoyment, not fooling myself by thinking its the environmentally responsible thing to do.

Cheers, FF

 

[Sangstercraft]

Was looking at my fuel economy computer on my 5.0L F150 Lariat.
70,000 kms driven so far.
21 L / 100 km
= 14,700 liters of gas burned x $1.3/L = $19,110 of gas! My buddy's truck has 200,000 kms on it = $55,000 in fuel burnt!

I've put 1000 hours on my boat in the last five years. That's $39,000 in gas.

To Walley's points - yeah, electric cars are still making a net negative on the planet. But do some more research on the topic. Electric is WAY more environmentally friendly than burning gas.

Ocean acidification (from us burning fossil fuels) is happening now, and if the Ph changes enough, say goodbye to diatoms. If those can't grow, then the food web collapses.
https://mashable.com/2018/03/16/ocean-acidification-could-hit-base-marine-food-web-diatoms/

Can't wait for an electric pickup!

 

[GLG]

 

[OldBlackDog]

Attempts To Use Electric Buses In Germany Flop…”Many Disadvantages”, “Short Service Life”, “No Real Progress”
By P Gosselin on 17. December 2019

Share this...

Few places virtue signal green as much as Germany.

So not surprisingly a number of cities led by socialist/green governments have attempted to implement electric public transportation buses, declaring they are the future of clean mobility.



Electric powered buses still struggling to be successful. Image: Flixbus

But Tichy’s Einblick just recently reported on the results of attempted electric bus fleets across Germany. They are not pretty.

Electrically driven public transport by bus is still a long way off.

FlixBus suspends electric bus after “repeated technical problems”

One example, Tichy’s Einblick cites, is German intercity bus carrier FlixBus, which worked with Greenpeace to promote the electric bus on the route between Mannheim and Frankfurt as a showcase project – all accompanied by ample fanfare and slogans such as “sustainable travel” and “the mobility of the future is green”.

But last April Greenpeace reported the discontinuation of the first nationwide electric long-distance bus line: “The long-distance bus provider announced on Wednesday that there had been repeated technical problems during the pilot project between Mannheim and Frankfurt with the vehicle of a Chinese manufacturer. These problems with the bus of Chinese manufacturer BYD must have been so massive that the project was suspended.”

Tichy’s Einblick reports the “only one thing that was really sustainable about the project was the disappointment of the travelers.”

Wiesbaden: 45 million euros, only on flat routes

Tichy’s Einblick also looked at the city of Wiesbaden where city bus operator ESWE Stadtwerke ordered 56 electric buses in April of this year and the first five were to run in October, with another five to follow in November. But so far none have “made any further progress yet”.

Wiesbaden plans a total of 140 electric buses, all to be supported by 45 million euros in taxpayers’ money from the Federal Environment Ministry. Yet Tichy’s Einblick reports that only the “flat inner city stretches are to be served” and that “they do not dare to venture onto the steeper streets on the outskirts.”

Also: “A battery charge should last 150 kilometers, but less if the temperatures are freezing and the bus is full: 100 kilometers.” That would mean about 3 hours of service before a recharge becomes needed.

Nürtingen electric bus pilot “a flop”…battery 80,000 euros!

In the city of Nürtingen, “The electric bus pilot project is a flop,” says Tichy’s Einblick. “The battery on a bus was broken after two and a half years of operation, and a new one costs 80,000 euros. Too much – that’s why the operation is stopped.”

Trier: buses taken out of service after just 2 weeks

Tichy’s Einblick also sarcastically reports that since July, “The electric buses in Trier have proven to be truly quiet and environmentally friendly: They are idol.”

“Already after two weeks the first electric bus had to stay in the workshop. Reason: Problems with the battery. An end of the problems is not in sight,” according toTichy’s Einblick.

Bremen backs off electric bus plans: “many disadvantages”

The failures of the electric buses on German streets has not gone unnoticed. Even the Green/Socialist government of the northern city of Bremen has made “a 180-degree turn”.

Earlier the city had planned to purchase five electric buses, 40 percent of which were to be funded by the federal government. But the Bremen city government opted out of the plan. “The reason: It is still unclear whether the electric drive really is the technology of the future.”

According to Tichy’s Einblick: “Bremen Mayor Maike Schaefer (Green Party) says that e-mobility has many disadvantages: ‘The batteries need cobalt, which comes from mines in the Congo. Exploitative child labor prevails there.'”

“Currently, the electric vehicles also have such a short service life that their carbon footprint does not represent any real progress compared with conventional technologies,” writes Tichy’s Einb

 

[dradons]

Attempts To Use Electric Buses In Germany Flop…”Many Disadvantages”, “Short Service Life”, “No Real Progress”
By P Gosselin on 17. December 2019

Share this...

Few places virtue signal green as much as Germany.

So not surprisingly a number of cities led by socialist/green governments have attempted to implement electric public transportation buses, declaring they are the future of clean mobility.



Electric powered buses still struggling to be successful. Image: Flixbus

But Tichy’s Einblick just recently reported on the results of attempted electric bus fleets across Germany. They are not pretty.

Electrically driven public transport by bus is still a long way off.

FlixBus suspends electric bus after “repeated technical problems”

One example, Tichy’s Einblick cites, is German intercity bus carrier FlixBus, which worked with Greenpeace to promote the electric bus on the route between Mannheim and Frankfurt as a showcase project – all accompanied by ample fanfare and slogans such as “sustainable travel” and “the mobility of the future is green”.

But last April Greenpeace reported the discontinuation of the first nationwide electric long-distance bus line: “The long-distance bus provider announced on Wednesday that there had been repeated technical problems during the pilot project between Mannheim and Frankfurt with the vehicle of a Chinese manufacturer. These problems with the bus of Chinese manufacturer BYD must have been so massive that the project was suspended.”

Tichy’s Einblick reports the “only one thing that was really sustainable about the project was the disappointment of the travelers.”

Wiesbaden: 45 million euros, only on flat routes

Tichy’s Einblick also looked at the city of Wiesbaden where city bus operator ESWE Stadtwerke ordered 56 electric buses in April of this year and the first five were to run in October, with another five to follow in November. But so far none have “made any further progress yet”.

Wiesbaden plans a total of 140 electric buses, all to be supported by 45 million euros in taxpayers’ money from the Federal Environment Ministry. Yet Tichy’s Einblick reports that only the “flat inner city stretches are to be served” and that “they do not dare to venture onto the steeper streets on the outskirts.”

Also: “A battery charge should last 150 kilometers, but less if the temperatures are freezing and the bus is full: 100 kilometers.” That would mean about 3 hours of service before a recharge becomes needed.

Nürtingen electric bus pilot “a flop”…battery 80,000 euros!

In the city of Nürtingen, “The electric bus pilot project is a flop,” says Tichy’s Einblick. “The battery on a bus was broken after two and a half years of operation, and a new one costs 80,000 euros. Too much – that’s why the operation is stopped.”

Trier: buses taken out of service after just 2 weeks

Tichy’s Einblick also sarcastically reports that since July, “The electric buses in Trier have proven to be truly quiet and environmentally friendly: They are idol.”

“Already after two weeks the first electric bus had to stay in the workshop. Reason: Problems with the battery. An end of the problems is not in sight,” according toTichy’s Einblick.

Bremen backs off electric bus plans: “many disadvantages”

The failures of the electric buses on German streets has not gone unnoticed. Even the Green/Socialist government of the northern city of Bremen has made “a 180-degree turn”.

Earlier the city had planned to purchase five electric buses, 40 percent of which were to be funded by the federal government. But the Bremen city government opted out of the plan. “The reason: It is still unclear whether the electric drive really is the technology of the future.”

According to Tichy’s Einblick: “Bremen Mayor Maike Schaefer (Green Party) says that e-mobility has many disadvantages: ‘The batteries need cobalt, which comes from mines in the Congo. Exploitative child labor prevails there.'”

“Currently, the electric vehicles also have such a short service life that their carbon footprint does not represent any real progress compared with conventional technologies,” writes Tichy’s Einb

So what. They had a failed project and roll-out. **** happens.

I don't see the point in your post other than to try to drum up negativity against electric vehicles.

 

[kevind]

I think it brings up a good point that electric vehicles that are to be used as a constant mode of travel through the day are probably a bad choice ie buses, taxis, emergency vehicles. They do have a place with as a general mode of transportation to and from work or school. Shorter travel distances ect. Still a long way to go with that technology.

 

[Sangstercraft]

OLD Black Dog - you're like a horse owner back in the early 1900's, talking about change. LOL. "A car? those things break down alllll the time! filled with flammable substance, can't refuel with grass, costs a lot."

Hey if it doesn't work on first go-around, just give up, right?

 

[ChinookExerciser]

Nürtingen electric bus pilot “a flop”…battery 80,000 euros!

In the city of Nürtingen, “The electric bus pilot project is a flop,” says Tichy’s Einblick. “The battery on a bus was broken after two and a half years of operation, and a new one costs 80,000 euros. Too much – that’s why the operation is stopped.”

Not something that anyone needs to worry about as " A 2016 review by the Department of Energy found that the most common EV battery warranty at the time was 8 years or 100,000 miles. "

According to Tichy’s Einblick: “Bremen Mayor Maike Schaefer (Green Party) says that e-mobility has many disadvantages: ‘The batteries need cobalt, which comes from mines in the Congo. Exploitative child labor prevails there.'”

Tech giants sued over 'appalling' deaths of children who mine their cobalt
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-tuesday-edition-1.5399491/tech-giants-sued-over-appalling-deaths-of-children-who-mine-their-cobalt-1.5399492

“The long-distance bus provider announced on Wednesday that there had been repeated technical problems during the pilot project between Mannheim and Frankfurt with the vehicle of a Chinese manufacturer. These problems with the bus of Chinese manufacturer BYD must have been so massive that the project was suspended.”

Does anyone on here own a chinese car? again not something we need to worry about. Looks like the Führer got played on this one.

Also this seems to be a more rounded article

https://www.electrive.com/2019/12/0...g-distance-flixbus-e-bus-services-in-germany/

 

[cracked_ribs]

OLD Black Dog - you're like a horse owner back in the early 1900's, talking about change. LOL. "A car? those things break down alllll the time! filled with flammable substance, can't refuel with grass, costs a lot."

Hey if it doesn't work on first go-around, just give up, right?

I've said this here before but just remember...people have tried to replace fuels with different technologies before, and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

We may be at the car-vs-horse point.

We may be at the steam car-vs-gasoline car point.

The only successful drives to replace fuel sources have been ones in which the new medium was more energy dense than the previous one. Water power replaced indivudual human power, coal successfully replaced wood; oil successfully replaced coal. To my knowledge we have never seen a successful transition that did not include an increase in energy density.

So this may be the next step, or it may be a dead end. We probably won't know for quite a while.

 

[Rain City]

I've said this here before but just remember...people have tried to replace fuels with different technologies before, and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

We may be at the car-vs-horse point.

We may be at the steam car-vs-gasoline car point.

The only successful drives to replace fuel sources have been ones in which the new medium was more energy dense than the previous one. Water power replaced indivudual human power, coal successfully replaced wood; oil successfully replaced coal. To my knowledge we have never seen a successful transition that did not include an increase in energy density.

So this may be the next step, or it may be a dead end. We probably won't know for quite a while.

Well the need for increased energy density was to reduce cost. I think "cheaper" is the major driver.

 

[cracked_ribs]

Yes and no...yes, if by "cost" you include all of the storage aspects of handling a less dense energy medium, but that is essentially tautological: those costs are reduced precisely by adopting a denser storage medium.

You could, in theory, do almost any task with enough people and food; lots of low-tech totalitarian states still do this. You're using the most basic energy conversion, calories to shovelfuls or axe swings or whatever.

But it gets progressively more efficient as you move to hydraulic technology, steam shovels, coal engines, and, ultimately, diesel powered machines. The cost is a function of the ability to harness energy; the more you can harness, the cheaper the overall process becomes.

At present, batteries are not nearly as energy-dense as fossil fuel, so it's a tough sell. If you want to run a leaf blower all day, you need what, a liter of gas? Imagine running the same machine on lithium ion batteries; you would need a backpack full of them. So the technology, even if it turns out to be cheaper to run, is not necessarily cheaper enough to offset the efficiency loss by going to a less dense energy medium.

Energy density is one of the pillars of civilization; most people don't run across it in day to day life so it's not generally well-known but it's one of a handful of factors which map almost perfectly onto human development indices.

 

[ziggy]

I wonder though if “energy density” is more applicable to comparing a tank of gas to single battery. Does it factor the ability of the battery to recharge on a given job. For instance cordless tools come with a second battery in order that when one is in use one can be charging. Using your backpack blower example having a second battery and an ability to recharge would likely handle most, though not all situations.

If you have a car that can run 400 km on a charge, most people would be perfectly happy and able to easily get through their day. Top it off every night at home and be good to go the next day.Of course a long haul trucker and those required to drive long distances in a short period, would find it impractical at this stage, but that’s only a small segment of society. Freight could eventually be moved by electric trains as opposed to our current diesels trains, but we’re a long way away from addressing all transportation issues.

I look at what’s happening as a first step. People are changing their driving habits and every increase at the pump increases that resolve. As more people switch to EV’s I think you’ll see a rapid acceleration in battery and recharging technology. I still drive an F-350, but the family car is a plug-in Hybrid which I use whenever possible, wife permitting lol

 

[ryanb]

Energy density only matters insofar as it's required. For most (but certainly not all) people an electric car has sufficient energy density. If you start looking at trucks that tow, semis, agricultural machinery, and long haul aircraft, certainly not even close!

 

[cracked_ribs]

I don't disagree that EVs might be adequate for lots of people; the fact that you can carry a week or two's fuel in a conventional ICE vehicle and replace it all in five minutes may be totally irrelevant to the average consumer. I don't think I mentioned it here but on another forum I was talking about how I find the Tesla truck infuriating because my usual application for my daily driver looks like this:

1) 30km open highway driving each way to a place where there are several charging stations available daily
2) occasional towing of heavy boats, relatively short distances
3) rarely needing to drive greater distances than what's on Vancouver Island
4) occasional drives up and down the west coast of the USA
5) periodic hauling of motorcycles and construction materials

This is a near-perfect use case for an electric truck, and if they'd built something that looked like the concept drawing that was getting thrown around I would have really thought about it, even though I am not usually a fan of Tesla builds for technical reasons. So although I have a lot of criticisms of the way EV technology is presented, I'm not at all against it when the application is right.


I'm just speaking in general terms in regards to energy storage: we have never really seen widespread adoption of an energy technology that had lower density than the one it was replacing. If the current generation of EVs are successful it will be a real outlier in that regard, and I think there is a misconception about how close they are to mainstream success. The Tesla truck got 250,000 refundable deposits...what is that, a month's worth of pickup production from the big 3? Scaling that up to compete with conventional vehicles is going to be a lot more complicated than people imagine. Consider the difference in complexity between doing a $1000 project at your home, and doing a $100,000 project at your home...these are different planets in terms of what's necessary to make it work. That's my objection to the way the EV thing as presented. It may ultimately prove fruitful, or it may be just another dead end niche, and at this point I think it's way too early to tell. I'm not necessarily opposed to being part of that niche, but we haven't been observing it for long enough to know what the downsides are going to be.

I mean regime change in a Latin American country is right up my alley, as anyone who's known me for a long time will half-jokingly tell you, but overthrowing the Chilean government is really only step one for securing the Atacama lithium reserves. And Atacama lithium itself is only step one of an almost unimaginably long supply chain that is going to take a very long time to build. Can it be done? Maybe so. Will it replace oil in a major way? That I find much less likely. Certainly at this point there is no indication that the global thirst for hydrocarbons is diminishing in any meaningful way. Does that take away from the Rivian truck? No, I don't think so...but where does it leave EV technology on a grander scale? I just don't think there's a good way to know yet.