Gas prices up again

walleyes said:
Companies pay for those resources. They buy the land on the open market from the governments, they bid on the right to the tunes of millions of dollars to take the gamble and drill for those resources. Then after they have spent billions to explore and produce those resources a fee is still paid per bbl to the provinces they are extracted from, it’s far from free. Would you like to see fishing rights for certain areas go on the open market and be bid on by individuals. Would you like to see area G bid on by large corporations and all other stake holders withheld from entering that area. That would be the same, trust me it’s not the same now, not ever close.
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Who pays for the clean-up after they leave with their profits?
 
You only hear about the clean ups that are left by companies you never hear about the billions spent by companies every year that do clean up the majority of the non producing areas.
With technology constantly changing a lot of wells that are sitting dormant may very well be put into production again in time. It’s not as cut and dry as many make it out to be, trust me on this. But that’s not to say there isn’t room for improvement on this issue that there is. There have been mistakes made on this legislation for sure.
 
walleyes said:
Companies pay for those resources. They buy the land on the open market from the governments, they bid on the right to the tunes of millions of dollars to take the gamble and drill for those resources. Then after they have spent billions to explore and produce those resources a fee is still paid per bbl to the provinces they are extracted from, it’s far from free. Would you like to see fishing rights for certain areas go on the open market and be bid on by individuals. Would you like to see area G bid on by large corporations and all other stake holders withheld from entering that area. That would be the same, trust me it’s not the same now, not ever close.
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Sounds like you’re in agreement with what I said, at least parts and likely as close as you’ll ever admit ... and a contradiction of the “stealing money” comment for that matter.

As for Harper having the pipeline built his track record speaks for itself: he had two minorities, a majority and an open mandate to spend buckets of austerity money post-2008 and he got nothing done, period. You can dream and “what if” all you like but the fact remains that Pierre’s little boy is building the pipeline Harper couldn’t. Sad that you’re so bitter and biased that you can’t be happy it’s getting built and give some credit where it’s due, whether you agree with the rest of JT’s politics or not.

Cheers!

Ukee
 
UkeeDreamin said:
Sounds like you’re in agreement with what I said, at least parts and likely as close as you’ll ever admit ... and a contradiction of the “stealing money” comment for that matter.

As for Harper having the pipeline built his track record speaks for itself: he had two minorities, a majority and an open mandate to spend buckets of austerity money post-2008 and he got nothing done, period. You can dream and “what if” all you like but the fact remains that Pierre’s little boy is building the pipeline Harper couldn’t. Sad that you’re so bitter and biased that you can’t be happy it’s getting built and give some credit where it’s due, whether you agree with the rest of JT’s politics or not.

Cheers!

Ukee
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There is a bill in parliament that could kill the pipeline so I wouldn’t count thoes cards yet.

We could also end up in a minority government where the liberals may have to make some deals. So that pipe line is very far from being built
 
UkeeDreamin said:
As for Harper having the pipeline built his track record speaks for itself: he had two minorities, a majority and an open mandate to spend buckets of austerity money post-2008 and he got nothing done, period. You can dream and “what if” all you like but the fact remains that Pierre’s little boy is building the pipeline Harper couldn’t. Sad that you’re so bitter and biased that you can’t be happy it’s getting built and give some credit where it’s due, whether you agree with the rest of JT’s politics or not.

Cheers!

Ukee
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This is just completely incorrect.

Under the last government, I can think of three oil pipelines off the top of my head: Anchor, Keystone and Clipper... and Keystone runs all the way to Texas. Clipper runs to somewhere in the Midwest, I can't remember where.

And I'm not even in an industry related to oil. I would guess the guys in the gas and oil game here probably know of others, those are just the ones that are so well known they made it down to a guy just picks up the occasional newspaper.
 
UkeeDreamin said:
I have no issues with subsidies if it can be shown to make it back into the economy and benefits all Canadians (in the case of fed $) but when it goes to an industry led by billionaires and millionaires
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I'd love to see all the energy subsidies taken away, wouldn't you? Pissed about gas prices now, try it without, do you think any business in any sector would absorb the hit of losing them and not pass it on? Canadian governments get an approximate 5x return on subsidies, based on taxes and royalties not the spending of the nearly 300,000 workers.
 
This latest all started with the blowing up of the Saudi refineries...Ontario and Quebec buy Saudi oil so put their prices up and motivate them to get the pipe to head east and ween them off the Saudi nipple.
 
triplenickel said:
I'd love to see all the energy subsidies taken away, wouldn't you? Pissed about gas prices now, try it without, do you think any business in any sector would absorb the hit of losing them and not pass it on? Canadian governments get an approximate 5x return on subsidies, based on taxes and royalties not the spending of the nearly 300,000 workers.
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Fake news, no truth to that data whatsoever in Recent years and anyone who can type on google can do their own fact checking regarding the O&G subsidy myths. In 2016 Alberta’s O& G revenue is estimated at $1.4B as compared to pre-2017-18 subsidies averaging $1.6B and planned to grow to more than $2B this year and future years under the new AB govt. Triple-Nick, I’ll give you that back in the 80’s the subsidy:revenue ratio in AB was fantastic, but those days are long gone.

Cheers!

Ukee
 
UkeeDreamin said:
Fake news, no truth to that data whatsoever in Recent years and anyone who can type on google can do their own fact checking regarding the O&G subsidy myths. In 2016 Alberta’s O& G revenue is estimated at $1.4B as compared to pre-2017-18 subsidies averaging $1.6B and planned to grow to more than $2B this year and future years under the new AB govt. Triple-Nick, I’ll give you that back in the 80’s the subsidy:revenue ratio in AB was fantastic, but those days are long gone.

Cheers!

Ukee
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Here read and learn something if it’s possible.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Is-Canadian-Oil-Actually-Subsidized.html
 
Find me an independent source with empirical data and always happy to have an honest discussion Walleyes.

Cheers!

Ukee
 
Yah,, I didn’t think it was possible.
 
I keep hearing about the subsidies the O&G industy receives. I would like someone to point out the specific subsidies instead of just a general term.
 
walleyes said:
Yah,, I didn’t think it was possible.
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Not possible to find independent reporting of empirical data on subsidies and royalties/revenues? It’s not as easy as finding bias on both sides of the debate, I agree, but it’s not too hard to simply find the data on subsidy values and revenues. As I said to 3-N, there’s no doubting the value this industry provided for a couple of decades when the subsidy:revenue ratios were great. Reality is, subsidies currently exceed revenue and I’m not aware of any independent analysts who feel we’ll see a return of the glory days.

I’m not anti-O&G and I think it still has a place in Canada’s energy future, at least in the near term. I just feel governments have a responsibility to tax payers to ensure we get value for our tax dollars and currently, the subsidy:revenue ratio for this industry isn’t beneficial for the tax payer and nowhere near what it used to be.

Cheers!

Ukee
 
UkeeDreamin said:
Fake news, no truth to that data whatsoever in Recent years and anyone who can type on google can do their own fact checking regarding the O&G subsidy myths. In 2016 Alberta’s O& G revenue is estimated at $1.4B as compared to pre-2017-18 subsidies averaging $1.6B and planned to grow to more than $2B this year and future years under the new AB govt. Triple-Nick, I’ll give you that back in the 80’s the subsidy:revenue ratio in AB was fantastic, but those days are long gone.

Cheers!

Ukee
Click to expand...

Are you saying that overall the governments of Canada put out more than they get back in O&G? I think even if it were a break even proposition the ability to be energy self sufficient has significant value.

Here's a biased bunny hugger site that is surely overstating the subsidies;

https://environmentaldefence.ca/report/the-elephant-in-the-room-canadas-fossil-fuel-subsidies/

Here's the Gov. data on what they take in;

https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy-and-economy/20062

Some quotes from the link above provided by your Liberal friends in Ottawa;

--An important share of government revenues is collected from the oil and gas industry, which averaged $14.8 billion over the last five years, including $11.8 billion from upstream oil and gas extraction and its support activities.

Between 2013 and 2017, the energy sector’s share of total taxes paid by all industries was 7.7% and brought in nearly 11% of all operating revenues earned by governments in Canada.

Unrelated to subsidies but an indication of how much more money comes back into the economy in return for the investment (subsidies) in just one example.

-- Capital expenditures in Canada’s energy sector total $75 billion in 2018, 36% lower from a peak in 2014.

Investment has been stable over the last three years, with oil and gas extraction being the largest contributor at $36.7 billion in 2018, followed by electric power generation and transmission at $24.3 billion.

Canada has to stay competitive the other G7 members have given over $100 billion per year to oil, gas and coal companies at home and abroad since they signed the 2015 Paris Agreement. Even with subsidies the country is revenue positive. But I digress getting back to the original point of this thread, how would ending subsidies help at the pumps?
 
Copper Moon said:
I keep hearing about the subsidies the O&G industy receives. I would like someone to point out the specific subsidies instead of just a general term.
Click to expand...

Subsidy name Who gives it? Who gets it? How much is it worth?*

Flow-through shares** Canada Oil and gas companies CAD 265 million

Direct spending & budgetary transfers*** Canada Oil and gas companies CAD 112 million

Crown royalty reductions Alberta Oil and gas companies CAD 1.162 billion

Tax exemptions for certain fuels & uses in industry Alberta Industry CAD 298 million

Royalty reductions, including deep drilling and infrastructure credits† British Columbia Oil and gas companies CAD 631 million

Reduced tax for aviation fuel Ontario Aviation Industry CAD 292 million

Tax exemption for coloured fuels used in agriculture Ontario Agricultural industry CAD 248 million

Fuel tax exemptions and reductions ‡ Quebec Industry and other consumers CAD 301 million

Cheers!

Ukee
 
triplenickel said:
Are you saying that overall the governments of Canada put out more than they get back in O&G? I think even if it were a break even proposition the ability to be energy self sufficient has significant value.

Here's a biased bunny hugger site that is surely overstating the subsidies;

https://environmentaldefence.ca/report/the-elephant-in-the-room-canadas-fossil-fuel-subsidies/

Here's the Gov. data on what they take in;

https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy-and-economy/20062

Some quotes from the link above provided by your Liberal friends in Ottawa;

--An important share of government revenues is collected from the oil and gas industry, which averaged $14.8 billion over the last five years, including $11.8 billion from upstream oil and gas extraction and its support activities.

Between 2013 and 2017, the energy sector’s share of total taxes paid by all industries was 7.7% and brought in nearly 11% of all operating revenues earned by governments in Canada.

Unrelated to subsidies but an indication of how much more money comes back into the economy in return for the investment (subsidies) in just one example.

-- Capital expenditures in Canada’s energy sector total $75 billion in 2018, 36% lower from a peak in 2014.

Investment has been stable over the last three years, with oil and gas extraction being the largest contributor at $36.7 billion in 2018, followed by electric power generation and transmission at $24.3 billion.

Canada has to stay competitive the other G7 members have given over $100 billion per year to oil, gas and coal companies at home and abroad since they signed the 2015 Paris Agreement. Even with subsidies the country is revenue positive. But I digress getting back to the original point of this thread, how would ending subsidies help at the pumps?
Click to expand...

Averaged since 2013, with the reality of significant reduction in revenue each year and significant increase in subsidies in recent years. Again, I’ve never once said this industry didn’t have a positive revenue vs subsidy ratio in the past. Similarly, I didn’t say we should end subsidies or that eliminating them would benefit pump pricing. What I did say is that we need to get value for our tax money: in the former instance the subsidies should be balanced against the expected revenues and in the latter my position was that any industry that is subsidized by the tax payer shouldn’t be allowed to collude and gouge the tax payer. Those are both concepts, quite frankly, that I would think folks of all political leanings can agree upon!

Cheers!

Ukee
 
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