Someone got a response

Link says it was removed.

Link Only worked once I was logged into FB wen I click on it here. I got same as you wen logged out of fb.

Sorry we have now exceeded my tech skills. Hahaha.
 
Can you please give a quick summary? Not on facebook.

Here ya go it worked on my computer, could not do it on phone.


"Thought you guys might like this.
One of the better explanations of what’s happening and why.
DFO’s point of view.

Hi Bill,
Following up on our call on July 17, please find some written responses to the questions that you raised. I’ve also attached some background that we sent out on our management approach that you might find helpful.

1. How many Chinook were taken by FN in the 90 + Gill net openings on the upper Fraser?

· Licences that have been issued have NOT been for communal fisheries with wide community participation. Licences have provided for limited time and vessels with a small number chinook permitted to be harvested (in most cases it is 3 chinook per community for ceremonial use e.g. first fish; DFO also similar limited access for funerals).

· Opportunities to harvest small numbers of Chinook for ceremonial purposes is consistent with the overall management objective for fishery mortalities near 5% overall for these Fraser Chinook stocks.

· The DFO website provides information on catches in the upper and lower Fraser

i. Data is not completely current but latest reports on-line as of July 17 are 64 Chinook caught in the Lower Fraser and 63 Chinook in BC Interior.

ii. You can monitor the catch data for Fraser FSC fisheries at the following links:

1. BC Interior: http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/fraser/docs/abor-autoc/UpperFraser/UMFHarvestReport-eng.htm

2. Lower Fraser: https://www-ops2.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fraserriver/firstnations/HTMLs/ChinookKeptCatch.html


2. Was there any DNA sampling done to ensure they were not from at risk stocks?

· DNA samples are not taken for catch, but the expectation is that most fish caught to date would be from Spring 42, Spring 52 and Summer 52 Chinook stocks of concern. As a result, DFO is managing any fishing opportunities to a very low overall mortality limit.

· Specifically, the management approach permits 5% mortality on each management unit (Spring 42, Spring 52 and Summer 52) to account for limited FN FSC fisheries, as well as, incidental catch and release mortality in the recreational fishery. Negligible impacts are expected in commercial troll fisheries as Chinook retention is delayed until August.

i. The approximate breakdown of fishery mortalities projected by harvest group is approximately 3.4% FN FSC, 0.9% recreational and 0.7% test fishery.


3. How many Chinook were taken during the July 16 ‘Chum’. Opening on the Fraser?

· DFO has not licenced any chum directed fishery opportunities to date. (Chum typically return to the Fraser in late September / October.)

· I believe this refers to an opening for a limited Food, Social and Ceremonial Chinook harvest opportunity provided to Musqueam First Nation (https://www-ops2.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fraserriver/firstnations/HTMLs/CeremonialOpeningTimes.html) that provides for a limited # participants and a small specified Chinook catch consistent with the management approach I outlined above. Catch will be updated on the DFO web-site.


4. Were all Chinook over 80 cm released?

· No, there is no size limit in the FN FSC fishery. Fish are caught by gill net and release mortality is high. Impacts are being accounted for as part of the overall 5% fishery mortalities.



5. Why are sport fishers not allowed to take a hatchery fish over 80 cm when we all know they don't go up the Fraser....particularly above Big Bar

· The Department has not authorized mark selective fisheries (MSF) in 2019 due to several concerns:



1. Conservation considerations:

a. Mark selective fisheries (MSF) increase fishing effort and release mortalities (approximately 20%) for unmarked, wild Chinook, including endangered Fraser River Chinook for which there are significant conservation concerns.
b. Canadian hatchery marked fish returning to the Fraser (including Nicola and Chilko) were required to help sustain some endangered Fraser Chinook populations where few wild fish were returning. For example, hatchery origin, marked Chinook made a high contribution to Nicola (Spring 42 stock) spawners in 2018 and helped to sustain the population given very weak wild Chinook returns. Hatchery origin Chinook also return to the Chilko (Summer 52 stock).

c. In times and areas where the encounter rates of marked Chinook in the fishery are not well above 20%, additional mortality of wild fish can be expected due to release mortality if anglers must handle more fish to keep a hatchery fish. The Department has recreational catch data including encounters of marked and unmarked Chinook by month and statistical area that is used to assess this.

2. Pacific Salmon Treaty Considerations:

a. Canada and the United States have agreed to reductions in fishery mortalities to support conservation of a number of Chinook populations in both countries. To assess the performance of these reductions for hatchery and wild Chinook, the countries plan to assess fishery mortalities using information from CWT data from hatchery marked chinook. Mark selective fisheries for hatchery fish result in more hatchery origin chinook containing CWTs that are turned in by anglers and other harvesters. As a result, this can result in an over-estimate of impacts on wild populations and requires additional information from stock assessment and catch monitoring programs to address this problem and provide appropriate fishery information for wild stocks. Examples include independent sampling of releases of wild and hatchery fish, additional Chinook head collection, detection and processing to recover CWTs and additional tagging / marking programs for wild Chinook.



· In the April 16, 2019 news release (https://www.canada.ca/en/fisheries-oceans/news/2019/04/government-of-canada-takes-action-to-address-fraser-river-chinook-decline.html), the Minister announced plans to engage with First Nations, the Province of BC and stakeholders to address a broad range of issues impacting Chinook stocks including the role of hatcheries to support rebuilding and the potential for mark selective fisheries. This work will be started this summer.


6. Has DFO changed priorities putting FN food and ceremonial fish above conservation? Sure looks that way.

· DFO is managing the fishery consistent with the Salmon Allocation Policy. Conservation of at risk Fraser Chinook is the primary objective in managing the resource. After conservation, the Department is also committed to respecting Constitutional and Treaty obligations to provide priority for First Nations harvest opportunities for Food, Social and Ceremonial and Treaty obligations. Consistent with the conservation objective to limit fishery mortalities to 5% for these Fraser Chinook, conservation measures will also constrain First Nations Chinook harvest opportunities while at risk Fraser Chinook or other stocks of concern (e.g. Early Stuart Sockeye) migrate through fishing areas. The Department is currently permitting very limited Fraser River FSC fishery opportunities to harvest small numbers of Chinook for ceremonial purposes which is consistent with the overall management objective for fishery mortalities near 5% for these stocks. The conservation objective of 5% fishery mortalities across all fisheries will also guide any fisheries that are considered.


I hope this is of assistance. Thanks for sending along the phone numbers as well.

Regards,

Jeff Grout
Regional Resource Manager – Salmon
Fisheries and Oceans Canada"
 
Wow lucky to get a response.

Wow guess we
Finally got our answer they simply just don’t want boats on the water

“a. Mark selective fisheries (MSF) increase fishing effort”
 
Yep, FN only like wild fish. Hatchery fish will only raise the expectations of us sporties. It’s a no no from Our new managers.
 
Here ya go it worked on my computer, could not do it on phone.


"Thought you guys might like this.
One of the better explanations of what’s happening and why.
DFO’s point of view.

Hi Bill,
Following up on our call on July 17, please find some written responses to the questions that you raised. I’ve also attached some background that we sent out on our management approach that you might find helpful.

1. How many Chinook were taken by FN in the 90 + Gill net openings on the upper Fraser?

· Licences that have been issued have NOT been for communal fisheries with wide community participation. Licences have provided for limited time and vessels with a small number chinook permitted to be harvested (in most cases it is 3 chinook per community for ceremonial use e.g. first fish; DFO also similar limited access for funerals).

· Opportunities to harvest small numbers of Chinook for ceremonial purposes is consistent with the overall management objective for fishery mortalities near 5% overall for these Fraser Chinook stocks.

· The DFO website provides information on catches in the upper and lower Fraser

i. Data is not completely current but latest reports on-line as of July 17 are 64 Chinook caught in the Lower Fraser and 63 Chinook in BC Interior.

ii. You can monitor the catch data for Fraser FSC fisheries at the following links:

1. BC Interior: http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/fraser/docs/abor-autoc/UpperFraser/UMFHarvestReport-eng.htm

2. Lower Fraser: https://www-ops2.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fraserriver/firstnations/HTMLs/ChinookKeptCatch.html


2. Was there any DNA sampling done to ensure they were not from at risk stocks?

· DNA samples are not taken for catch, but the expectation is that most fish caught to date would be from Spring 42, Spring 52 and Summer 52 Chinook stocks of concern. As a result, DFO is managing any fishing opportunities to a very low overall mortality limit.

· Specifically, the management approach permits 5% mortality on each management unit (Spring 42, Spring 52 and Summer 52) to account for limited FN FSC fisheries, as well as, incidental catch and release mortality in the recreational fishery. Negligible impacts are expected in commercial troll fisheries as Chinook retention is delayed until August.

i. The approximate breakdown of fishery mortalities projected by harvest group is approximately 3.4% FN FSC, 0.9% recreational and 0.7% test fishery.


3. How many Chinook were taken during the July 16 ‘Chum’. Opening on the Fraser?

· DFO has not licenced any chum directed fishery opportunities to date. (Chum typically return to the Fraser in late September / October.)

· I believe this refers to an opening for a limited Food, Social and Ceremonial Chinook harvest opportunity provided to Musqueam First Nation (https://www-ops2.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fraserriver/firstnations/HTMLs/CeremonialOpeningTimes.html) that provides for a limited # participants and a small specified Chinook catch consistent with the management approach I outlined above. Catch will be updated on the DFO web-site.


4. Were all Chinook over 80 cm released?

· No, there is no size limit in the FN FSC fishery. Fish are caught by gill net and release mortality is high. Impacts are being accounted for as part of the overall 5% fishery mortalities.



5. Why are sport fishers not allowed to take a hatchery fish over 80 cm when we all know they don't go up the Fraser....particularly above Big Bar

· The Department has not authorized mark selective fisheries (MSF) in 2019 due to several concerns:



1. Conservation considerations:

a. Mark selective fisheries (MSF) increase fishing effort and release mortalities (approximately 20%) for unmarked, wild Chinook, including endangered Fraser River Chinook for which there are significant conservation concerns.
b. Canadian hatchery marked fish returning to the Fraser (including Nicola and Chilko) were required to help sustain some endangered Fraser Chinook populations where few wild fish were returning. For example, hatchery origin, marked Chinook made a high contribution to Nicola (Spring 42 stock) spawners in 2018 and helped to sustain the population given very weak wild Chinook returns. Hatchery origin Chinook also return to the Chilko (Summer 52 stock).

c. In times and areas where the encounter rates of marked Chinook in the fishery are not well above 20%, additional mortality of wild fish can be expected due to release mortality if anglers must handle more fish to keep a hatchery fish. The Department has recreational catch data including encounters of marked and unmarked Chinook by month and statistical area that is used to assess this.

2. Pacific Salmon Treaty Considerations:

a. Canada and the United States have agreed to reductions in fishery mortalities to support conservation of a number of Chinook populations in both countries. To assess the performance of these reductions for hatchery and wild Chinook, the countries plan to assess fishery mortalities using information from CWT data from hatchery marked chinook. Mark selective fisheries for hatchery fish result in more hatchery origin chinook containing CWTs that are turned in by anglers and other harvesters. As a result, this can result in an over-estimate of impacts on wild populations and requires additional information from stock assessment and catch monitoring programs to address this problem and provide appropriate fishery information for wild stocks. Examples include independent sampling of releases of wild and hatchery fish, additional Chinook head collection, detection and processing to recover CWTs and additional tagging / marking programs for wild Chinook.



· In the April 16, 2019 news release (https://www.canada.ca/en/fisheries-oceans/news/2019/04/government-of-canada-takes-action-to-address-fraser-river-chinook-decline.html), the Minister announced plans to engage with First Nations, the Province of BC and stakeholders to address a broad range of issues impacting Chinook stocks including the role of hatcheries to support rebuilding and the potential for mark selective fisheries. This work will be started this summer.


6. Has DFO changed priorities putting FN food and ceremonial fish above conservation? Sure looks that way.

· DFO is managing the fishery consistent with the Salmon Allocation Policy. Conservation of at risk Fraser Chinook is the primary objective in managing the resource. After conservation, the Department is also committed to respecting Constitutional and Treaty obligations to provide priority for First Nations harvest opportunities for Food, Social and Ceremonial and Treaty obligations. Consistent with the conservation objective to limit fishery mortalities to 5% for these Fraser Chinook, conservation measures will also constrain First Nations Chinook harvest opportunities while at risk Fraser Chinook or other stocks of concern (e.g. Early Stuart Sockeye) migrate through fishing areas. The Department is currently permitting very limited Fraser River FSC fishery opportunities to harvest small numbers of Chinook for ceremonial purposes which is consistent with the overall management objective for fishery mortalities near 5% for these stocks. The conservation objective of 5% fishery mortalities across all fisheries will also guide any fisheries that are considered.


I hope this is of assistance. Thanks for sending along the phone numbers as well.

Regards,

Jeff Grout
Regional Resource Manager – Salmon
Fisheries and Oceans Canada"
Thank you for doing that for us! I must say a lot of that is hard to digest
 
It is a well-written response. Don't know if it's truthful. Too bad he wasn't asked why DFO is picking on Vic/Sooke.
 
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This is a pretty persuasive response that undermines many assertions made by people critical of government policy. The notion that indigenous fishers are taking large numbers of fish seems unsupported.
 
This is a pretty persuasive response that undermines many assertions made by people critical of government policy. The notion that indigenous fishers are taking large numbers of fish seems unsupported.
I disagree IMHO (and I think many would agree on this) it is a pretty un-persuasive response that it politically motivated, not based upon science and real data, but based upon closed negotiations with FN's to get them to "comply" with some catch reductions on their part.

If the only source of data to support DFO comes from DFO problematic observations and data collection, I think many would agree that there is a little support to believe their numbers on FSC catch amounts!

DFO senior management many times in the past have twisted, manipulated, withheld, and outright misled the public on their data analysis to serve their political masters and there is no reason to think that it is any different here, especially with such a controversial issue as this.

The only way to know the truth is to have an independent, 3rd party observers collect the data, analyze it and publish the data with being censored. Can't see that happening. The days of the public believing DFO data have gone - fisheries management is too political now. DFO serves the will of the politicians and what gets them re-elected, first and foremost, not the will of the people and certainly not what it is the best interest of sound resource management! My 2 bits.
 
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I say taken at face value response is very persuasive, if numbers are correct then response makes sense. I for one do not believe FN catch numbers but with no data/evidence to support or refute point is moot. What this DOES do is give DFO the out they need for any future actions against them. Pollical way of getting votes.

HM
 
I disagree IMHO (and I think many would agree on this) it is a pretty un-persuasive response that it politically motivated, not based upon science and real data, but based upon closed negotiations with FN's to get them to "comply" with some catch reductions on their part.

If the only source of data to support DFO comes from DFO problematic observations and data collection, I think many would agree that there is a little support to believe their numbers on FSC catch amounts!

DFO senior management many times in the past have twisted, manipulated, withheld, and outright misled the public on their data analysis to serve their political masters and there is no reason to think that it is any different here, especially with such a controversial issue as this.

The only way to know the truth is to have an independent, 3rd party observers collect the data, analyze it and publish the data with being censored. Can't see that happening. The days of the public believing DFO data have gone - fisheries management is too political now. DFO serves the will of the politicians and what gets them re-elected, first and foremost, not the will of the people and certainly not what it is the best interest of sound resource management! My 2 bits.

So you are saying the entire response is a lie, but without evidence. I think more is required than simply saying they may have lied in the past.
 
Seems the mandate of DFO is to tell bold faced lies these days!! I agree with the point that if so few fish are required, why are alternative fishing techniques not being considered. Get the nets out of the water and give the fish a chance!
 
So you are saying the entire response is a lie, but without evidence. I think more is required than simply saying they may have lied in the past.
Yup that is what I am saying - no reason or verified proof to believe otherwise on such a political and controversial issue. I say the emphasis to verify their data (e.g. via independent 3rd party) is on DFO since they have mislead in the past. It is they - not the public that needs to earn back trust for their mismanagement!

Need to remember this is not about unfettered, sound resource management decisions - this is politicians trying to manipulate things to appeal to their base to get re-elected in Oct. If important management decisions have not be politically influenced then why is the state of our fisheries on both coasts in such a mess? It is either this, or incompetence, or worse - both! :mad::mad::mad:
 
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It is an well-written response. Don't know if it's truthful. Too bad he wasn't asked why DFO is picking on Vic/Sooke.

Vic and Sooke is partly lack of solid DNA data related unfortunately. If you look at the amount of georgia straight DNA data vs that area it is like night and day.

I am starting to think it has to do more to do with how ot looks on a map. That area is funnel for fish optically.

I personally think that is why the area always gets screwed. Fact is though there is no reason why you guys should not be able to catch fish in the slot like rest of island. So to me that points to data or how dfo sees the funnel etc.
 
I think we need 100% clipping on hatchery fish. So much could have been solved if this was in place. Classic shoulda, woulda, coulda.
 
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