T
The Jackel
Guest
Still don't get it i see
Important Chinook Information - Feedback Required
- Thread starter Admin
- Start date
Derby
Crew Member
Because u don't see something posted up here doesn't mean things are not being done .. this is politics
fish brain
Crew Member
I think we need disruptive protests in every town. Park our boats and trailers around the down town core of each town one day a week for one hour at a time. Create flotillas to block major waterways at the same time. Park boats all around the parliament building in Victoria Every Saturday with a different start time each week. This would get Canada wide media coverage plus have the benefit of having the provincial as well as every municipal government squawking at Ottawa to fix this problem now
Jencourt
Well-Known Member
I agree with you on pushing the positive message of the work we do and the positive affect that work creates.
Please allow me to respectfully remind you of how hard it was for those working on the media campaign / healthy orca healthy fishery thing, to get even a minute portion of rec license holders to pony up even a couple bucks.
Also I reached out to all of you on here to help gather pictures and stories highlighting those very efforts jriptide has mentioned and the social benefits of the public fisheries.
https://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum/index.php?threads/let’s-get-positive.73685/
My intention was to donate my time to organize a bunch of short messages and flood social media with everyone’s help.
Searun suggested that some of it maybe could be used as part of the work they where doing on a mainstream level.
I received one set of family fishing pics and zero emails, suggested contacts or support beyond that. I work full time, I have a house full of 5 adults and a grandchild . To add to it have been dealing with some personal health issues for the last year or so. So ya I was forced to rely on help.
In the end I fell short of getting this done. I will own that.
This is a good example of the difference between suggesting something, starting the process, and actually making it happen.
I am in no way calling you or anyone else out by quoting your post.
Only putting this up because I have often made suggestions while offering little more than that, and now understand better the difficulty in “ making it happen”
If anyone would like to make this happen I will do all I can to help out.
Last edited:
ILHG
Crew Member
Almost. Currently the the groups who have been lobbying against the pipline (Tides Foundation) are grasping a straws. The SRWK are the pillar being used now. So the feds are able to counter this by increasing food and reducing rec boats when they are in the area feeding. This has taken the wind out of there sails as a tool to stop the pipeline approval.
Perhaps folks should be more aware of who they take on as an ally & allow to set up shop. Now that these groups have settled in, they will now be your worst nightmare.
Last edited:
Aces
Well-Known Member
It’s always been that way. A dedicated few standing up for the majority who **** and moan about what they can’t have.
I stepped away from the process a long time ago after almost 20 years to let the younger and keener generation take over.
ziggy
Well-Known Member
I appreciate that, hence the question as opposed to a statement?
Aces
Well-Known Member
FYI, like your country the FN’s get priority access and that isn’t going to change
IronNoggin
Well-Known Member
Gentz - Please stop the unrelated shitstorm. It ain't helping.
Wanna do battle over other matters, take it to another thread (we can all start them after all) or private if you prefer,
And let's GET THIS THREAD BACK ON TRACK.
Many Thanks,
Nog
Wanna do battle over other matters, take it to another thread (we can all start them after all) or private if you prefer,
And let's GET THIS THREAD BACK ON TRACK.
Many Thanks,
Nog
cohochinook
Well-Known Member
We do need to mobilize for a protest, but we need to get everyone involved. Not just sport fisherman what other businesses that are impacted by the closures. Right now we're only talking and we need to get this mobilized! Talk is cheap!
fish brain
Crew Member
I agree all players from all sectors, each and every town. Who is in?
fishin solo
Crew Member
I agree. I’ve suggested it already couple times but no takers and I can’t guarantee I’ll be here for it cause of work
Jencourt
Well-Known Member
I am not saying there should not be. I just wonder how we get support from it wen it will be spun as wanting to put the industry ahead of critically low numbers of fish?
“Greedy sport fishers willing to kill the last fish before loosing business. “
After spending time on Various sites like VI fishing FB pages it is clear that even lots of Rec fishers have no clue as to the real facts and alternatives that where on the table. Hell, a year later and people are still arguing about weather yellow eye on the inside where closed last year or not
I can see the headlines.
“Angry sport fishers gather in protest of DFO’s decision to shut down the sport harvest of Chinook to protect the critically low projected returns to the Fraser River. “
Again not saying not to. Just have no clue how to get past that.
fishin solo
Crew Member
-
Well I think we aren’t gonna get past that without being in the spotlight first. It’s already happened the regs are changed and no reversal.
We aren’t in the spotlight now and look what’s happened. Atleast if we were in the spotlight their is a chance to educate the public and provide facts and science. I know there’s a lot more to this but it’s obvious sitting at a table having meetings etc doesn’t mean **** to DFO or our govt in the end they will do whatever they want. That’s just my opinion but what do I know
Jencourt
Well-Known Member
Fair point . I agree about getting the facts to the public.
fogged in
Well-Known Member
Often see members post
"if it's legal go for it"
or
"got enough meat to pay for my charter"
and we wonder why we are where we are where we are!
High Time
Crew Member
Pacific Angler Report (Copied)
Vancouver Saltwater Salmon Fishing Report
Well it’s official. The DFO and Fisheries Minister have made it non-retention for chinook salmon on the south coast. They just shut down some of the best fishing I have ever seen in our local waters and what is very likely the best fishing on the entire coast right now. That’s just our area. Let’s not forget about the iconic sport fishing communities on the Island like Tofino, Ucluelet, Bamfield, Campbell River, Renfrew, and Victoria, just to name a few. The result is thousands of people are going to lose their jobs and it is going to cost this province hundreds of millions of dollars.
So how did we get here? Well it’s a complicated scenario and the road to this closure has a lot of ups and downs and twists and turns, but it goes something like this. Chinook stocks are diverse. Some come from the Fraser, some from rivers that empty directly into the ocean, some spend 2 years in the freshwater before they leave to the ocean, others out migrate right away, some spend their ocean life in local waters, some go way offshore. So, as you can imagine, some stocks might be suffering while others are doing very well. Large blanket closures are an ineffective way to manage such a diverse resource.
Enter interior Fraser chinook. These fish spawn in the interior tributaries to the Fraser, and they hang out in these rivers for 2 years before out-migrating. To say things are not going well up there is an understatement; less water, long hot summers, warm water, forest fires, siltation, are just a few of the issues these fish have to face for 2 years. The end result is the survival rate is extremely low. The few that do make it after 2 years then have to make it past the seals as they leave the Fraser. Of all the out migrating salmonids, these 2 year old chinook smolts are some of the biggest, only second to steelhead smolts. As a result, the seals focus on them, as they do steelhead smolts. As many as 47% of them are consumed by seals. The few that make it then head offshore to feed and return 2 years later. In general, they come back around the south end of Vancouver Island and into the south arm of the Fraser, returning in the months of April, May, June, and July. There is no doubt these fish need to be protected and we are all for that. Sport fishing regulations have been in place to do so for many years, so much so that our exploitation rate for these fish is either at 0% or so small that it is negligible.
So, what about all these fish off South Bowen right now and over in Nanaimo and Gabriola? Well these are not the fish I just described above. DFO has a lot of DNA data that shows what fish we are catching, that is how we can be so certain. This is a scientific fact, not speculation. The fish we are we catching in these areas are from a variety of rivers where things are not as dire as the conditions seen in the interior of the province. The chinook stocks from these systems are stable, and in some cases are at or near record returns. There is no conservation concern for these stocks and a 2 per day limit is sustainable. A 1 per day limit is certainly sustainable and acceptable from a scientific fisheries management viewpoint. If you have been fishing these past 2 weeks you know how many fish are out there.
Then why did we get shut down? This is the question you should be asking and I am going to tell you the politics behind it. The reality is this. The interior Fraser chinook need protection. Sport fishing regulations have been in place to do so for many years as noted earlier, and commercial troll opportunities for these fish have been reduced heavily in the past and this year are non-existent. The last piece of the puzzle is First Nations in river fisheries for these same fish. You can’t carve any more meat off the bone from the recreational or commercial fleet, the rest has to come from First Nations in river fisheries. This isn’t me speaking; this is the DFO science that was presented in a variety of meetings and forums. The only way to put more of these fish on the spawning beds is to stop in river netting of these fish. Hence the recent closures and reduced opportunities for First Nations over the coming months as per the announcement yesterday. I hope you are connecting the dots here and asking yourself this question. So why is a sustainable fishery like we see off South Bowen, for non-interior Fraser chinook, which are experiencing good to excellent survival rates, closed? You should also be asking yourself why this fishery is closed when it has absolutely nothing to do with these interior Fraser chinook. Well we asked these very questions to the Minister and DFO these past few days. The answer we received was this. Despite the fact our current local chinook fisheries have no impact on these interior Fraser chinook, they have to close the recreational fleet on a grandiose scale so they can reduce First Nation in river harvesting opportunities for interior Fraser chinook. We pointed to their science that shows we aren’t catching those fish and asked if we could have 1 a day, the answer was no. We asked if we could keep a hatchery only, which has absolutely 0 effect on Fraser fish as these fish are from the USA, the answer was no. In short, the answer is the recreational fleet has to be closed first, and then they can take fisheries measures for First Nations second. That precedent was set in a case that is often referred to as the Tommy Case. Let me make this clear. If there is a conservation concern, I will be the first to put the rods away, and if anyone has a right to the first harvest of those fish, I agree it should be First Nations for ceremonial and food fish purposes. I get that if we are fishing for the same fish. What I don't agree with and what I don't get, is the DFO shutting down one distinct fishery and user group so they can shut down another user group on totally different fish. This is ludicrous and political, this is not scientific, and this is mismanagement of the resource at the highest level. So, I think it is important that we are all very clear that this Minister just shut down the entire south coast so they can attempt to reduce First Nation in river impacts on interior Fraser chinook. On our home waters that means they just shut down South Bowen, Thrasher, Nanaimo, which are all experiencing amazing fishing (for non-interior Fraser stocks), just to have the opportunity to keep First Nations nets out of the Fraser to save interior Fraser stocks. You can see my frustration. Unfortunately, I don't think it is going to do much to help these fish. DFO needs emergency hatchery production for these fish, the habitat needs some help, and we need to deal with the seals. None of that is happening anytime soon from what I can see. Since the DFO has sacrificed the whole south coast, I hope they plan on making sure the Fraser is net free until July 14. I hope fisheries like this have now been closed 2019 Open Times for the Mid & Upper Fraser River First Nations Fisheries - Week 16. I will give the DFO the benefit of the doubt on this one and assume that is the case; I certainly hope so for the fish. In the meantime, diverse and sustainable recreational fisheries remain closed and the south coast marine fishery and economy has been cut off at the knees.
If you think this management strategy is unacceptable, you need to let DFO know. Send an email to these people and let them know this is not acceptable. Let them know how it is affecting you and let them know how you are going to vote next election.
Hon Jonathan Wilkinson Minister Jonathan.Wilkinson@parl.gc.ca
Rebecca Reid, DFO Regional Director General, Pacific Region Rebecca.Reid@dfo-mpo.gc.ca
We have had a lot of calls asking if you can still go fishing. The answer is YES. The regulations say non-retention of chinook, so you can still fish. You will have to practice catch and release on chinook. Fishing is nothing short of amazing right now. Here is a picture from a charter yesterday and fishing was fantastic. Of course, if you head out now it is catch and release, but that is still a lot of fun.
Vancouver Saltwater Salmon Fishing Report
Well it’s official. The DFO and Fisheries Minister have made it non-retention for chinook salmon on the south coast. They just shut down some of the best fishing I have ever seen in our local waters and what is very likely the best fishing on the entire coast right now. That’s just our area. Let’s not forget about the iconic sport fishing communities on the Island like Tofino, Ucluelet, Bamfield, Campbell River, Renfrew, and Victoria, just to name a few. The result is thousands of people are going to lose their jobs and it is going to cost this province hundreds of millions of dollars.
So how did we get here? Well it’s a complicated scenario and the road to this closure has a lot of ups and downs and twists and turns, but it goes something like this. Chinook stocks are diverse. Some come from the Fraser, some from rivers that empty directly into the ocean, some spend 2 years in the freshwater before they leave to the ocean, others out migrate right away, some spend their ocean life in local waters, some go way offshore. So, as you can imagine, some stocks might be suffering while others are doing very well. Large blanket closures are an ineffective way to manage such a diverse resource.
Enter interior Fraser chinook. These fish spawn in the interior tributaries to the Fraser, and they hang out in these rivers for 2 years before out-migrating. To say things are not going well up there is an understatement; less water, long hot summers, warm water, forest fires, siltation, are just a few of the issues these fish have to face for 2 years. The end result is the survival rate is extremely low. The few that do make it after 2 years then have to make it past the seals as they leave the Fraser. Of all the out migrating salmonids, these 2 year old chinook smolts are some of the biggest, only second to steelhead smolts. As a result, the seals focus on them, as they do steelhead smolts. As many as 47% of them are consumed by seals. The few that make it then head offshore to feed and return 2 years later. In general, they come back around the south end of Vancouver Island and into the south arm of the Fraser, returning in the months of April, May, June, and July. There is no doubt these fish need to be protected and we are all for that. Sport fishing regulations have been in place to do so for many years, so much so that our exploitation rate for these fish is either at 0% or so small that it is negligible.
So, what about all these fish off South Bowen right now and over in Nanaimo and Gabriola? Well these are not the fish I just described above. DFO has a lot of DNA data that shows what fish we are catching, that is how we can be so certain. This is a scientific fact, not speculation. The fish we are we catching in these areas are from a variety of rivers where things are not as dire as the conditions seen in the interior of the province. The chinook stocks from these systems are stable, and in some cases are at or near record returns. There is no conservation concern for these stocks and a 2 per day limit is sustainable. A 1 per day limit is certainly sustainable and acceptable from a scientific fisheries management viewpoint. If you have been fishing these past 2 weeks you know how many fish are out there.
Then why did we get shut down? This is the question you should be asking and I am going to tell you the politics behind it. The reality is this. The interior Fraser chinook need protection. Sport fishing regulations have been in place to do so for many years as noted earlier, and commercial troll opportunities for these fish have been reduced heavily in the past and this year are non-existent. The last piece of the puzzle is First Nations in river fisheries for these same fish. You can’t carve any more meat off the bone from the recreational or commercial fleet, the rest has to come from First Nations in river fisheries. This isn’t me speaking; this is the DFO science that was presented in a variety of meetings and forums. The only way to put more of these fish on the spawning beds is to stop in river netting of these fish. Hence the recent closures and reduced opportunities for First Nations over the coming months as per the announcement yesterday. I hope you are connecting the dots here and asking yourself this question. So why is a sustainable fishery like we see off South Bowen, for non-interior Fraser chinook, which are experiencing good to excellent survival rates, closed? You should also be asking yourself why this fishery is closed when it has absolutely nothing to do with these interior Fraser chinook. Well we asked these very questions to the Minister and DFO these past few days. The answer we received was this. Despite the fact our current local chinook fisheries have no impact on these interior Fraser chinook, they have to close the recreational fleet on a grandiose scale so they can reduce First Nation in river harvesting opportunities for interior Fraser chinook. We pointed to their science that shows we aren’t catching those fish and asked if we could have 1 a day, the answer was no. We asked if we could keep a hatchery only, which has absolutely 0 effect on Fraser fish as these fish are from the USA, the answer was no. In short, the answer is the recreational fleet has to be closed first, and then they can take fisheries measures for First Nations second. That precedent was set in a case that is often referred to as the Tommy Case. Let me make this clear. If there is a conservation concern, I will be the first to put the rods away, and if anyone has a right to the first harvest of those fish, I agree it should be First Nations for ceremonial and food fish purposes. I get that if we are fishing for the same fish. What I don't agree with and what I don't get, is the DFO shutting down one distinct fishery and user group so they can shut down another user group on totally different fish. This is ludicrous and political, this is not scientific, and this is mismanagement of the resource at the highest level. So, I think it is important that we are all very clear that this Minister just shut down the entire south coast so they can attempt to reduce First Nation in river impacts on interior Fraser chinook. On our home waters that means they just shut down South Bowen, Thrasher, Nanaimo, which are all experiencing amazing fishing (for non-interior Fraser stocks), just to have the opportunity to keep First Nations nets out of the Fraser to save interior Fraser stocks. You can see my frustration. Unfortunately, I don't think it is going to do much to help these fish. DFO needs emergency hatchery production for these fish, the habitat needs some help, and we need to deal with the seals. None of that is happening anytime soon from what I can see. Since the DFO has sacrificed the whole south coast, I hope they plan on making sure the Fraser is net free until July 14. I hope fisheries like this have now been closed 2019 Open Times for the Mid & Upper Fraser River First Nations Fisheries - Week 16. I will give the DFO the benefit of the doubt on this one and assume that is the case; I certainly hope so for the fish. In the meantime, diverse and sustainable recreational fisheries remain closed and the south coast marine fishery and economy has been cut off at the knees.
If you think this management strategy is unacceptable, you need to let DFO know. Send an email to these people and let them know this is not acceptable. Let them know how it is affecting you and let them know how you are going to vote next election.
Hon Jonathan Wilkinson Minister Jonathan.Wilkinson@parl.gc.ca
Rebecca Reid, DFO Regional Director General, Pacific Region Rebecca.Reid@dfo-mpo.gc.ca
We have had a lot of calls asking if you can still go fishing. The answer is YES. The regulations say non-retention of chinook, so you can still fish. You will have to practice catch and release on chinook. Fishing is nothing short of amazing right now. Here is a picture from a charter yesterday and fishing was fantastic. Of course, if you head out now it is catch and release, but that is still a lot of fun.
searun
Well-Known Member
Please don't take these comments the wrong way, just trying to frame the situation and challenges so we don't get expectations set too high.
Our most significant challenge in Area 19 is this is a funnel where many of the Fraser stocks of concern whom migrate far off shore for their journey home where we can't catch them, and are first encountered by Canadian domestic fisheries largely in Area 20 to 19 etc. That is not to say there are not other areas some of the Fraser stocks are encountered - but in the approach zone (Area 19/20), and then all the way along the migration corridor to the Fraser through Area 18 and over to 29 etc. is where the most significant encounters are documented.
The documentation or "data" problem is at the core of our challenge in Area 19/20. Fisheries manages are relying upon coded wire tag (CWT) data. Here is how it works. When we turn in a head that has a CWT from a Fraser indicator stock, that forms part of the "data" utilized to determine or estimate how many Fraser fish are caught. When the number of heads turned in is low, the statistical modelling used then applies an estimate or "Expansion Factor." So when heads collected is low, the "expansion factor" applied to normalize the data can be very high...so for example I have seen an Expansion Factor of 14 applied to Area 19 CWT....meaning that for every 1 actual CWT head turned in, they apply an "expansion factor" of 14...ergo...14 x number of heads = estimate of total Fraser fish. Hopefully this makes sense. Based on the available CWT data, Area 19 is a hotspot for Fraser stocks of concern.
Having said that, many of us know the expansion factor has some fairly obvious bias....but it is the current "standard." BUT....we also have DNA. The SFI, WCFGA, Avid Anglers and DFO have worked for the past several years advocating to anglers and guides that if we work together collecting DNA samples that we can build a better picture of the stocks of fish actually caught in specific locations. DNA sampling for this area is fairly low, but the data we do have tells a different picture than the CWT data. Competing with CWT however is a situation where more is better...we need much more. Hoping people get involved. Any angler can start sampling with the Avid Angler Program. Also, we can help by turning in hatchery clipped heads...although, these non-retention rules basically screw the whole CWT data base integrity for specific stock composition and timing estimates through specific marine areas.
As an example of how DNA can be our friend. The DNA evidence collected in the Area 123 - 127 project where we have been successful gaining support for DNA collection has been very helpful. It was that actual DNA data that was the deciding factor in a recent request to extend the retention of chinook zone out 1 nautical mile off the surf line. Data is our friend, and while yes it can sometimes hurt us, in those circumstances at least we know why.
SO where does that leave us...well we are indeed in a difficult spot as we need more data to make the case than we have available. Sorry, my comments may not help build hope...but I'm not going to sugar coat it.
What about going for hatchery only? Great idea. We have desperately tried to press for a Marked Selective Fishery (MSF) on hatchery marked fish. This would be an excellent option for Area 19 because the mark rate is very high....if there was ever any place for an MSF fishery this is it! Our biggest problem is Fraser FN's put DFO on notice they intended to commence legal action if there was any "infringement" on their Section 35 rights to Food, Social and Ceremonial Fish (FSC).
For reference, read the IFMP input letters.
When looking at option A or B that DFO floated out there...the biggest risk to even being able to get to Option B was legal precedent. I have attached a case you should read, specifically paragraph 83 https://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcsc/doc/2008/2008bcsc1095/2008bcsc1095.html
IMO the way forward really is to focus our effort on true reconciliation with FN's by sitting down and trying to understand one another, and work toward equitable sharing and stewardship of the resource...or we can fight it out in the courts, which is kind of a waste of good effort and cash.
Here's paragraph 83 for quick reference:
In the circumstances of these appeals, where there was insufficient fish to meet the First Nations’ food, social and ceremonial needs, I am of the view that all of the available Chinook had to go to the First Nations, regardless of the minimal impact the recreational fisheries may have had on the stock. This was necessary in order to guarantee the appellants their constitutional right of priority to the fish in the circumstances that existed and were known to exist before the commencement of the 1999 fishing season. The appellants did not, in my view, receive priority when the DFO closed the aboriginal fishery while the sports and recreational fisheries continued to enjoy access to the Chinook, albeit on a limited basis. After setting valid conservation measures, the honour of the Crown required the DFO to give priority to the appellants’ right to fish over all other non-aboriginal user groups, including the marine and in-river recreational fisheries.
Similar threads
