New Fed. Report says should explore moving Fish Farms to Land

Exactly birdsnest did you even read what I wrote? I admitted there would be some parasites some disease there always is. What there wouldn't be is acres of disease infested adult salmon hosting multiple harmful pathogens.

Without fish farms there would be no adult salmon in the vicinity none zip zero they all spawn or die. There may be a few feeder chinooks scattered along the route but in general they will be healthy fish and not heavily concentrated. You've got nothing against this birdsnest your really grasping at straws now you know on this point your beat and this is a very important point.
 
Exactly birdsnest did you even read what I wrote? I admitted there would be some parasites some disease there always is. What there wouldn't be is acres of disease infested adult salmon hosting multiple harmful pathogens.

Without fish farms there would be no adult salmon in the vicinity none zip zero they all spawn or die. There may be a few feeder chinooks scattered along the route but in general they will be healthy fish and not heavily concentrated. You've got nothing against this birdsnest your really grasping at straws now you know on this point your beat and this is a very important point.

It is only an assumption that they are infested and diseased which is why people are so upset. You and others have been lead to believe that. It just isn't true. And it is an assumption that multiple pathogens are harmful. You are just going way over the top on this. In order to really understand the situation you have to look at each individual virus and understand the effects on Atlantic's and pacific stock. Your statements above are blanket statements that suit your beliefs but are in no way a reflection of how thing are. How are things? No one knows the whole picture on viruses but some basic observation that ck and others point out tell a different story than the one of the demise of the wild salmon via salmon farms. You can tell the the pope that salmon farms are killing wild salmon but until you show that farm salmon in bc are effecting wild salmon your cries will fall on def ears.

I did not know this "discussion thread" was a contest with winners and losers. Hmmm.
 
It is only an assumption that they are infested and diseased which is why people are so upset.

Dr. Miller made a startling find a few years ago when she detected a genomic signature in salmon that died in rivers before they had a chance to spawn. Her research caused a big splash in the U.S. journal Science, because it suggested a virus was causing those pre-spawn mortalities. But she was not cleared by DFO to talk about her work. Her silencing was one of the key events that led to complaints against the federal government for “muzzling” scientists.

But Dr. Miller got approval from Ottawa to talk this week about her new research, which she says will build on her earlier work.

“I am speaking now … and I hope that this is a signal [of continued openness],” she said.

Dr. Miller said infectious salmon anemia (ISA), which has wiped out farmed salmon in some areas of the world and is suspected of being loose in B.C., will be one of the key microbes she looks for.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...undertaken-set-to-begin-in-bc/article9563287/

The truth is out there but the fish feedlot industry has not been telling it. Stay tuned to Dr. Miller...
 
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Dr. Miller said infectious salmon anemia (ISA), which has wiped out farmed salmon in some areas of the world and is suspected of being loose in B.C., will be one of the key microbes she looks for.

if miller was "muzzled" and now she can speak openly, where is the big juice secret or bit of information she is holding? When's the big press release? If it was so important where is it?
Looks like she says isav is suspected to be loose in bc. Suspected? This suggest to me that there is not clear evidence about isa in bc which is a totally different story we have been told in long face seriousness press releases by you know who. This"isa" has had potentially 100 years to show a mark able event on pacific salmon stocks. We're is that event. Ya, it sure kills Atlantic's dead but there is no such event known here in bc.
 
Interesting Cohen submission from Kintama Research Corporation

Summary:

The attached document analyses acoustic telemetry data to pinpoint the region between the Discovery Passage and Hecate Strait as the location where the 2009 Fraser River run failure likely occurred. It also comments on the most likely reasons why fisheries management has failed to deal with the ongoing major declines in British Columbia salmon populations due to worsening marine survival over the past two decades.
http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/submissions/ViewASubmission.php?sub=127

To bad they did not follow up with another study to prove once and for all what the heck is going on. Wonder why the fish farms would not jump at the chance to fund the next study to prove they have no affect. Wonder why DFO would not be happy to push for a final study solution? They have money for this industry that they pass to them every year to help market their "product". Remember those commercials during hockey playoffs. One or two of those commercials would have paid for the studies to prove their case. That is if they wanted the truth....
GLG

Summary:
Dr. David Welch submits this research proposal to report an important addition to his understanding of where sockeye smolt mortality occurs. In prior testimony at the commission, he reported that most mortality occurred after passing the northern end of Vancouver Island, but he has since re-analyzed his previously collected data to directly compare survival rates of acoustically tagged sockeye smolts migrating in the Strait of Georgia and then in Discovery Passage/Queen Charlotte Strait and found a level of higher mortality that may explain the 10-fold decline in Fraser sockeye survival seen since 1990. To address these issues, Dr. Welch and his colleagues designed a new study building off the results from the POST prototype array.

Salmon smolts migrate quickly after entering the ocean, typically at about 1 body-length per second. For 10 cm wild sockeye smolts, this means that they move about 9 km per day, resulting in the smolts being far removed from a location where disease transfer might occur within only a very few days. This complicates the interpretation and analysis of data from smolts collected for disease studies in the vicinity of fish farms, because the prior exposure history of a collected smolt is unknown. In addition, smolts debilitated from disease simply may disappear before capture because predators target weakened individuals prior to pathological symptoms (such as lesions) being expressed.

To address these issues, my colleagues (Drs. Scott Hinch, Kristi Miller, Brian Riddell, Tony Farrell, Carl Schwartz) and I designed a new study building off the results from the POST prototype array. The draft proposal is submitted for the Commission’s (& public’s) information as part of this commentary. However, the primary reason for this submission is to report an important addition to our understanding of where sockeye smolt mortality occurs. In prior testimony at the Commission I reported that most mortality occurred after passing the northern end of Vancouver Island. This statement remains correct. However, we have since re-analyzed our previously collected data to directly compare survival rates of acoustically tagged sockeye smolts migrating in the Strait of Georgia and then in Discovery Passage/Queen Charlotte Strait.

The results are summarized in Figure 4 on page 8 of the attached submission. In 5 of 6 years of study, survival rates per week of migration were substantially lower in the Discovery Passage region than in the Strait of Georgia. (2011 data are preliminary, as data from some receivers will not be collected until early January 2012).

This is a very important finding that clarifies and extends my earlier testimony:

1) The results continue to contradict the theory that 2007 sockeye smolts died in the Strait of Georgia, before reaching the area with fish farms; in 2007 smolt survival was substantially lower in the northern area.

2) The lower survival rate the northern area (currently estimated at roughly 2/3rds of the Strait of Georgia survival rate when averaged across all years) would have profound effects on marine survival if prolonged; after 5 weeks smolts would be reduced to only ~1/10th the number that would survive in the Strait of Georgia.

3) This level of higher mortality would be sufficient to fully explain the 10-fold decline in Fraser sockeye survival seen since 1990.

4) We caution that this new result remains a correlation, not proof that the fish farms present in the northern area caused the reduced survival, because the two regions probably differ in other ways (more abundant predators are likely present in the northern region, for example).


5) As the technical calculations in the full proposal demonstrate, the survival difference observed between freely migrating smolts in the northern and southern areas would be easily measurable with an appropriately re-designed array.

6) As discussed during my earlier testimony at the Cohen Commission, the “gold standard” for scientific research is a blinded experimental test comparing the survival of smolts exposed to fish farms to that of smolts not exposed (the later act as the control group, and are treated identically except for exposure to fish farms).


7) We estimate that fully implementing all aspects of the attached experimental design, including additional genomic & physiological analyses to assess response to fish farm exposure, would cost $3M~$3.5M per year. We believe that the study would need to be annually repeated for 3-5 years to provide a definitive answer as to whether fish farms elevate mortality sufficiently to justify regulatory action by government.

8) The scientific community (and thus the Cohen Commission) has had substantial difficulty in making reasonable conclusions owing to the lack of relevant data. The approach outlined in the proposal should both (i) resolve the key regulatory question for government of whether fish farm effects are large enough to warrant regulation and (ii) provide critically needed baseline information on when and where marine survival is determined.

9) The final appendix provides a list of letters of support for the approach, from members of the scientific community not having a direct interest in the research program.

David Welch, Ph.D.
Kintama Research Services, Ltd.
Nanaimo, B.C.
http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/submissions/ViewASubmission.php?sub=1127
 
It is only an assumption that they are infested and diseased which is why people are so upset. You and others have been lead to believe that. It just isn't true. And it is an assumption that multiple pathogens are harmful. You are just going way over the top on this. In order to really understand the situation you have to look at each individual virus and understand the effects on Atlantic's and pacific stock. Your statements above are blanket statements that suit your beliefs but are in no way a reflection of how thing are. How are things? No one knows the whole picture on viruses but some basic observation that ck and others point out tell a different story than the one of the demise of the wild salmon via salmon farms. You can tell the the pope that salmon farms are killing wild salmon but until you show that farm salmon in bc are effecting wild salmon your cries will fall on def ears.

I did not know this "discussion thread" was a contest with winners and losers. Hmmm.

It is not an assumption that salmon farms allow disease and parasites to grow and spread it is a FACT. If it is not a fact why do fish farms apply medicine in an attempt to control sea lice?

Then you say it's an assumption pathogens are harmful? If I get the flu am I harmed? Yes. If an infant gets the flu is it harmed? Absolutely and for a salmon smolt it could be fatal.

Your telling us fish don't get sick? They don't spread disease? But a few posts ago you said it was other organisms that held the pathogens now its they aren't really harmful we just assume it is? Flip flop flip flop.
 
It is not an assumption that salmon farms allow disease and parasites to grow and spread it is a FACT. If it is not a fact why do fish farms apply medicine in an attempt to control sea lice?

it happens but no where near the levels that are constantly beloved around here. It is not uncommon for cycles of farmed salmon in bc to go without even being treated with anything because it just was not necessary. And this happens often where the mortality rates are very low. Some companies never treat with anything and they have no sea lice and low mortalities. I am not even alowed to have bottom paint on my boat because it is toxic.
 
it happens but no where near the levels that are constantly beloved around here. It is not uncommon for cycles of farmed salmon in bc to go without even being treated with anything because it just was not necessary. And this happens often where the mortality rates are very low. Some companies never treat with anything and they have no sea lice and low mortalities. I am not even alowed to have bottom paint on my boat because it is toxic.
http://www.southcoasttoday.ca/content/trial-date-closer-cooke-execs
Many industry observers believe that Cooke and other industrial producers are fighting a losing battle in trying to raise millions of salmon in close proximity in large salmon feed lot operations. It is generally agreed that the control of sea lice on farmed salmon has hit a brick wall, with applications of the common - and legal - chemical Slice needed at double and triple strength to have any effect on the outbreaks and epidemics which are a common occurance throughout the world on salmon farms.

In addition to regular outbreaks of sea lice in New Brunswick, Norway, Chile, Scotland and elsewhere, the continued incidence of ISA virus in large farms in Chile, Norway and elsewhere has come home to Canada, with recent reports of ISA in salmon stocks in Nova Scotia and Newfoundland. ...and B.C.

Cooke Aquaculture, whose income is reported at $500 million per year, has recently began a major expansion of industrial salmon farms in Nova Scotia with farms near Digby, Lunenburg, Shelburne and elsewhere. The firm owns farms in New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Maine, Chile and Spain. A Cooke subsidiary in Chile was named throughout 2012 government reports on the possible spread of the immune salmon anemia viris (ISAv) similar to the strain which devastated the Chilean industry in 2007, resulting in the slaughter of millions of fish and the loss of more than 7,000 jobs.
 
I went to Cooke Aquaculture Executives facebook page and their status say's "gettin ready for 3 hots and a cot" LOL
 
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you are a birdsnest fer sure

it happens but no where near the levels that are constantly beloved around here. It is not uncommon for cycles of farmed salmon in bc to go without even being treated with anything because it just was not necessary. And this happens often where the mortality rates are very low. Some companies never treat with anything and they have no sea lice and low mortalities. I am not even alowed to have bottom paint on my boat because it is toxic.
GLG is right, Birdsnest. You are flip-flopping all over the place. On one hand you are saying that the filmakers of Salmon Confidential got it all wrong about viruses citing “no evidence”, and concluding that you can't prove anything, then in the next thread you are making definitive statements like parasites and viruses: “happens but no where near the levels that are constantly beloved around here.”

You would be better to pick an argument and stick with that script. Flip-flopping looses you any credibility that some uninformed readers may give you.

Either we have adequate information on viral levels and sea lice on the fish farms and in the wild – or we don't. You can't use lack of information to critique fish farm critics on one thread and then just blandly state “all is fine – believe me” in the next.

I would argue that we now have adequate information on background levels of sea lice in wild stocks, and we have had adequate information (but not always available until Cohen) information on sea lice on farmed stock. Any further discussion and arguing is now centered on transmission dynamics and what levels of risk are we (as a society) prepared to accept to amplification of lice levels to outmigrating salmon smolts.

It's the release (enter numbers of farmed fish and the stages of lice – particularly gravid females) of the naupilar/copepidite stages of sea lice in a plume from the fish farm (enter oceanography/hydrology and computer models), and how/when smolts migrate (enter field work), and what size those smolts are when they encounter this plume that determines potential effects and risks.

You completely FAILED to mention these variables as well as FAILED to mention that it's the overwintering, amplification of sea lice by farmed stock and subsequent release of sea lice in the late winter and early spring during the smolt outmigration that is the issue we are concerned with.

Maybe you don't know enough about lice effects from farms – BUT I would expect you to acknowledge this instead of the bland “Nothing to see here – move along folks” responses you have been giving as assurances all is well in walling-land.

Oh, and by-the-way thousands of boats in BC use bottom paint on their hulls – you must be one of the few that thinks you are not allowed to paint your hull. I guess cuckoos also build nests.

Viruses: types, strains, amounts, transmission dynamics – on the other hand – are largely unresearched and unknown DESPITE your “Nothing to see here – move along folks” responses.

We are at where we were in 2002 with sea lice. Too many questions – too many lies.

I'll be more specific about this in my response to your Salmon Confidential critique: http://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum/showthread.php?22876-Salmon-Confidential-(-the-movie)-EXPOSED
 
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The company I work for does not allow bottom paint for it is poisonous.
 
When the argument is brought in regards to how much $ the fish farms contribute to the economy, is that number MINUS the amount that the govt gives to compensate the farms to buy the diseased fish that need to be destroyed and dumped somewhere?
My guess is that those numbers are separate? So the amount that is claimed by the farmers is a lot less, depending on the year and how many culls are needed?
I've often wondered this, anyone know?
 
When the argument is brought in regards to how much $ the fish farms contribute to the economy, is that number MINUS the amount that the govt gives to compensate the farms to buy the diseased fish that need to be destroyed and dumped somewhere?
My guess is that those numbers are separate? So the amount that is claimed by the farmers is a lot less, depending on the year and how many culls are needed?
I've often wondered this, anyone know?

This is one of the biggest questions I would like to know as well. I am an entrepreneur and pay my way from the start to the finish. I pay my fair share of taxes as well. I wonder if these farms get some kind of tax break as well? What makes it so interesting to those running them? There must be incentives.
 
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