Government must protect orca habitat: court

No logical argument would convince the companies, investors and politicians that the gateway pipeline is a bad idea.
There is too much money at stake. Harper has meet with Communist China and has been told to get it done.
Powerful (rich) people want this thing to happen as they see a quick buck to be made.
They have no concept on the true price to be paid as they are not the ones that will pay the price if there is a spill.
Look at Prince William Sound to see how that went. Sure the oil company picked up the tab.
That's because they owned the tanker. Endbridge will not own the tankers so if there is a spill they are off the hook.
Yup some company from Communist China will own the tanker and good luck getting money from them.
The clean up cost will be from the taxpayers, you and me and the true cost will be paid by the living critters who's home we have destroyed.

Greed is a powerful thing. I don't know anything that can fight it.

GLG
 
beemer said:
They don't just eat Chinooks
--------------------------------------
It is pretty well established that the Southern Resident group eat 90% chinook and 10% chum. They have and will starve themselves to death if chinook are not present. The northern residents have proven to be much more adaptable , even taking halibut and groundfish. What most people don't want to talk about is the mathematical eventuality of the extinction of this group. When you crunch the numbers of mortality rate , age of fertility and number of males the picture is very gloomy. Unfortunately we are witnessing the last 30 years of this group and no matter what efforts are put forward the result will be the same , extinction. bit of a downer I know.

beemer
Click to expand...

Hey Beemer do you have any references to back up that Orca's only eat Chinook and Chum? I find it hard to understand why they would do this.
 
GLG that is a bleak commentary and unfortunately you could be right. However, the size of the environmental and citizen coalition that is going to fight this one will be huge, both here and in the States. The fight will be long and could keep the courts busy for many years. The ace in the hole we have on our side of the fence willl be the First Nations. If Harper and Co. try and tromp over their territories while all the land claims are going on it will garner so much international attention even the "fundie" conservatives will be embarrassed. And in the intervening years of this fight we will see more global warming, especially at the poles and perhaps the visible beginnings of sea level rise. That just might stop the oil sands or at least slow it down.....
Of course I could be wrong and mankind will plow gaily on to environmental Armageddon....we shall see - or at least our children will....
 
Englishman said:
bleak commentary
Click to expand...

Yup I'm not confident we can stop them.
May or may not be around to see the damage but my kid will be.
I have had many a discussions with a supporter of the pipeline.
So far my attempts have gone to deaf ears.
I was talking about the missing killer wales from Prince William Sound the other day.
But since the carcass were not found that is proof that they just buggered off.
How do you fight that kind of logic?

I see the FN as the wild card and not subject to picking one side or the other when big money is on the line.
Frankly FN are so screwed by the Indian Act that this project could be the "poker chip" they need.

GLG
 
the pipeline fight continues down this way as well. the republicans are pushing it as an election year issue, what did you expect. the democrats said ok, but all the refined product must be sold in the US and something like 70% of the steel must be manufactured in the US. the real crime here is not only the unaccountability given spills that are just a mater of time, but the fact that your mining industry has already signed contracts with China for this oil, screw all you consumers!!!!
 
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My 'Steven King moment'...

...in the absence of Pacific salmon and after chowing down on all the seals & sea lions, Canada's Orcas begin preying on humans!
 
I also fear that this pipeline will eventually get built. Our current BC government will ultimately join the feds in their push for it and money will flow to change the FN's minds. And unfortunately, many chiefs will sell out eventually if the $ amount is right. Only hope could be the next BC election should a NDP government come in but by then it may be a sealed deal already.
 
Beemer Thanks for the link on food source for Orcas. This is very good data and I need to go over it more.The Sooke Hatchery is not allowed to enhance Steelhead any more, but I see it is part of the Orcas diet. We need to talk to the BC Gov. about removing a food source for the Orcas.
The fight has just started on this issue.
 
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Since scientists,environmentalists and politicians are not in the water 24/7 with southern Orcas.....how do they know what an Orca does and doesn't eat?

I have read several reports of Orcas stealing halibut from fisherman's lines in Sooke area in the past.

They will voluntarily starve if they don't get Chinook? I don't buy that one at all.
Nature isn't about starving...it's about survival.

Captive Orcas (where I suspect they base all their information on feeding from) are a different story.
You can control captives and make them eat anything you want.
As in the Pavlovian experiments of decades back.

Since Orcas are not observed underwater feeding by anybody for any quantitative amount of time....and no-one ever gets a chance to cut open a dead one to see what's in the stomach, it is therefor "guesstimation" by so-called experts as to what they actually consume in the wild.

How about the "transients"? Are their numbers low? Because the food source for transients is now at very high levels ( sealions, seals etc.). But with the high food source for transients having been available for years now, I have not heard of a corresponding increase in the size of transient pods. (Or are they even monitoring those?....maybe not because they don't have the "cute and cuddly" marketing value of a local).

Transients ,in the past, have been filmed in Barkley sound attacking sealions from time to time.
On the other hand ( I lived in P.Alberni for 40 years) when the Chinook return up the Inlet in late August, there are no more "locals" hunting there than at any other time, even though the food source at this time has increased 1000-fold.
Orcas do come up the Inlet occasionally....but I can count on two hands the number of times I have seen them there.
You can have all the food source you want, but if your reproductive glands won't work because of toxin-load...you aren't going to see many babies.
This non-reproductive phenomena is also plaguing humans....with astonishingly low sperm counts in human males in many areas ( the Great Lakes for one...)

Since our seals and sealions are loaded with toxins... it's a wonder the transients are still out there as well.
 
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Seafever said:
Since scientists,environmentalists and politicians are not in the water 24/7 with southern Orcas.....how do they know what an Orca does and doesn't eat?

I have read several reports of Orcas stealing halibut from fisherman's lines in Sooke area in the past.

They will voluntarily starve if they don't get Chinook? I don't buy that one at all.
Nature isn't about starving...it's about survival.

Captive Orcas (where I suspect they base all their information on feeding from) are a different story.
You can control captives and make them eat anything you want.
As in the Pavlovian experiments of decades back.

Since Orcas are not observed underwater feeding by anybody for any quantitative amount of time....and no-one ever gets a chance to cut open a dead one to see what's in the stomach, it is therefor "guesstimation" by so-called experts as to what they actually consume in the wild.

How about the "transients"? Are their numbers low? Because the food source for transients is now at very high levels ( sealions, seals etc.). But with the high food source for transients having been available for years now, I have not heard of a corresponding increase in the size of transient pods. (Or are they even monitoring those?....maybe not because they don't have the "cute and cuddly" marketing value of a local).

Transients ,in the past, have been filmed in Barkley sound attacking sealions from time to time.
On the other hand ( I lived in P.Alberni for 40 years) when the Chinook return up the Inlet in late August, there are no more "locals" hunting there than at any other time, even though the food source at this time has increased 1000-fold.
Orcas do come up the Inlet occasionally....but I can count on two hands the number of times I have seen them there.
You can have all the food source you want, but if your reproductive glands won't work because of toxin-load...you aren't going to see many babies.
This non-reproductive phenomena is also plaguing humans....with astonishingly low sperm counts in human males in many areas ( the Great Lakes for one...)

Since our seals and sealions are loaded with toxins... it's a wonder the transients are still out there as well.
Click to expand...

Hey seafever , you may want to have a look at the study I posted earlier on this thread as most of the legal case is based on this study.

I am not aware of any reports of southern residents taking halibut (not saying it didn't happen) but I don't believe it has been officially recorded. The Northern Residents have been recorded taking halibut 2 years ago.

Transients are being studied and counted and the population does not seem to be increasing. The theory is the high level of pollutants in their prey is leading to shorter lifespans consequently less breeding.

beemer
 
Well ladies and gents, I would say: don't get your panties in a knot, I attended a SARA killer whale strategy meeting and they are planing to make a plan by 2013/14. Maybe all the chinook will be gone by then and then no problem.
 
declining stocks said:
Well ladies and gents, I would say: don't get your panties in a knot, I attended a SARA killer whale strategy meeting and they are planing to make a plan by 2013/14. Maybe all the chinook will be gone by then and then no problem.
Click to expand...

I will guarantee the Canadian version will be a carbon copy of the american plan already in play. http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/pdfs/recovery/whale_killer.pdf
If you scroll down to H iii you will see what the plan is , hopefully DFO comes with some dollars to make it happen. Unlikely!

beemer
 
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