Salmon farm eviction notice delivered by First Nation Leaders!

thankfully there are many people that share your same thoughts jeffywestcoast. thanks for going down to Victoria today.

aheny, all I can say to your "excellent post" (according to Dave), is there is a ton of published scientific peer reviewed articles out there in regards to the damage that is being done to salmon farms. unfortunately our government and industry has chosen to look the other way. they've put profits in front of our environment and the future of our wild salmon (and first nations) that have been here for thousands of years.
here... have a look. read some articles. or don't and turn a blind eye and claim it doesn't exist (or there is "little valid science" as you stated) like some of the others that make their business salmon farming...
the science is there in abundance but it's being ignored by those making decisions to make way for profits.

https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q...ved=0ahUKEwiomPTb1fTOAhVkF2MKHSE7ASUQgQMIITAA

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.0060033

http://www.salmonconfidential.ca/science-references/peer-reviewed-published-science/

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0011487
 
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...a false equivalence between a valid researched finding, and a laymens opinion. While everyone is entitled to have an opinion, opinions are anything but equal. Ms Morton preys on the publics need for shocking information ... Just because you are expert on topic A does not mean that anything you say about topic A is correct. ... The whole conversation about fish farms is typically a bunch of people who haven't conducted any research having their own opinions, and thinking that they are equal to what years of research have found...
Thank you for your post filled with your honest opinion, aheny. Although I agree with your assessment of the emotional outburst that Alex precipitates using emotional dialogue - that methodology and result is hers alone to own - and she is but one critic among many. It in no way invalidates every other seemingly agreeable concern on the impacts from others - or the data generated to support those perspectives.

It is true that the industry has manipulated the regulatory regime through what can only be termed as corruption and interference in government in order to accommodate it's operations. This includes not ever having to go through an environmental assessment - thereby avoiding the generation of the background data to quantify those impacts.

That is certainly not the fault of the industry's critics. It's not like the critics have not tried to correct the situation - but where they have been successful - the industry flashes-up it's rather impressive PR campaign and tries to invalidate those results and concerns by most often painting the conversation as instead a sporting event where one has to pick a team based on the colour of their jerseys - rather than addressing the concerns. This approach seems to work for many - particularly those who either work or support the industry's perspective. I see those same PR-generated responses embedded in your response: "layman's opinion"... and the rest quoted above.

I find this approach unfortunately quite arrogant and paternalistic - as these articles have been published using the same peer-review process that all science uses - and many other posters have posted links to some of these articles (thank you bigdogeh and others).

Yet - the pro-lobby seems quite attached to the process of invalidating an author by their name - rather than by their science. Furthermore - labeling all those other open net-cage critics as Morton wanna-bees and invalidating their concerns (and science where it exists) - is simply wrong. It is always up to the industry to ensure the appropriate science is done to prove they are NOT having an impact - government is supposed to be guided using the precautionary approach - and this is not a sporting event - it is real life - with real consequences.
 
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thankfully there are many people that share your same thoughts jeffywestcoast. thanks for going down to Victoria today.

aheny, all I can say to your "excellent post" (according to Dave), is there is a ton of published scientific peer reviewed articles out there in regards to the damage that is being done to salmon farms. unfortunately our government and industry has chosen to look the other way. they've put profits in front of our environment and the future of our wild salmon (and first nations) that have been here for thousands of years.
here... have a look. read some articles. or don't and turn a blind eye and claim it doesn't exist (or there is "little valid science" as you stated) like some of the others that make their business salmon farming...
the science is there in abundance but it's being ignored by those making decisions to make way for profits.

https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q...ved=0ahUKEwiomPTb1fTOAhVkF2MKHSE7ASUQgQMIITAA

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.0060033

http://www.salmonconfidential.ca/science-references/peer-reviewed-published-science/

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0011487

I think you misunderstood me. I never said there isn't damning science against fish farms.
I said that Morton makes statements which aren't supported by science, sometimes she even refers to her own work and makes claims which it doesn't support.
Such as a high percentage of grocery store salmon being diseased.
Mostly my comment was directed at people on both sides of the argument confusing their opinions with science and committing countless fallacies in their logic.
There are typically two ways to have a debate. Either you are arguing to be right or you are arguing to be correct. On this topic it seems like everybody wants to be right with no concern for whether or not they are correct.
 
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aheny, thanks for your clarification.
I still have to disagree with you a bit though. Or maybe I'm still not sure where you're coming from. But thxs for your comments, none the less...
It seems you are trying to show that we are more concerned with who is right and wrong. or who is correct or incorrect. I for one don't see it as a game of who's right and who's wrong. To me It's a bit more serious than a game.
I would love to be wrong and hope I am, but from what I've seen firsthand through my own experiences on the coast, through social media, through reading many of the peer reviewed scientific articles on the subject of fish farming, I believe open net pen fish farming is a huge and deadly mistake. Other countries have accepted this as fact.
My biggest concern is with the welfare of what is left of our salmon stocks and the natural environment they have co-existed in for 1000's of years. I see firsthand what is happening due to the imbalance of fish farms along the salmon migration paths thanks to social media, etc, and have read many of the peer reviewed articles and have formed my opinion that open net fish farms have no place in our waters along our coast. It's my belief (and others) that many if not all of these wild runs will become more or less extinct within the next half century if not sooner if the farms are not removed and continue to proliferate. I wish I and others who believe the same as me were wrong, but I don't believe I am and for that reason will do my best to give my opinions and hope that others will do their own research and form theirs. I believe this has been happening (people becoming educated on the subject of fish farms) and will continue to happen. people have been and will become more educated on the subject of fish farms and the farms will have no choice than to relocate due to public pressure. it is this public pressure (along with First Nations help) that will continue until our government has no choice than to make the necessary changes. If the government and industry choose to go against science and public opinion, and continue down the path they've created we will continue to lose our wild salmon, the people and other mammals that depend on the salmon will suffer, and the ecosystems that rely on the salmon will shut down. By the time government does accept that they have gone in the wrong direction it may be too late to save any semblance of a wild run. or maybe they have no intention of saving our wild salmon. it's starting to look that way.
In a ways people like Dave, Shuswap, Birdsnest etc, do a service since their debate allows people to ask questions and look at other sides of the equation and form their own opinions on weather the argument or debate is genuine or more to deflect some of the wrongdoings going on within the FF industry and government. I have faith in most people that look into the subject to make a choice as to weather they wish to support open net fish farming or not support it. Or form an opinion as to weather our government should be siding on the side of caution or going ahead and expanding the industry as they've planned. but I think they should at least have the opportunity to see and know what's going on from both sides. So again, thxs Dave, Shuswap, Birdsnest and others for the lively debate.
I would rather see people with some opinion and have some idea about what the fish farm industry is about than none at all...
 
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what does it really matter that they are herring? or Eulachon? or wild salmon smolts that the atlantics are feeding on? ...
Not really bigdogeh. However - the small translucent post flexion larvae are more likely to be juvie sandlance or needlefish rather than Eulachon (definitely NOT salmon smolts). Eulachon are negatively phototaxic - they like it dark and deep. This event recorded on AM's Go-Pro happens all the time. Juvie fish go by as a large school - and a portion get trapped in the pens - ultimately food for the net-pen fish. AM could have looked around the downstream corners of the floats and on nearby adjacent points - and likely found more of these fish in larger schools - if she wanted to - to confirm species - if she only had 10 minutes in the pens themselves.
 
Any industry that uses the ocean to assist in processing its products has an obvious negative impact on the environment. Anything that has the potential to harm wild salmon requires close examination and ongoing investigation and research.
We have government responsible for protecting the environment.
DFO needs to effectively perform its mandate.
The end.
 
Can anyone tell me who funds "slow fish"
They make some very good points in their web site regarding open pen farmed salmon
example taken from their site;
Health
Though often recommended as one of the best animal sources of omega-3 fatty acids, farmed salmon should not be eaten frequently. Farmed salmon flesh contains significant amounts of pollutants. The disinfectant and antibiotic residues left in farming operations can affect consumers' health and increase their resistance to antibiotics.
Want to read more? I found this site very informative.
http://slowfood.com/slowfish/pagine/eng/pagina.lasso?-id_pg=88
What you say fish farm guys?
 
Thank you for your post filled with your honest opinion, aheny. Although I agree with your assessment of the emotional outburst that Alex precipitates using emotional dialogue - that methodology and result is hers alone to own - and she is but one critic among many. It in no way invalidates every other seemingly agreeable concern on the impacts from others - or the data generated to support those perspectives.
One thing I do give you credit for is your criticism of Morton's tactics and that of the Sea Shepard Society this summer.....although much more restrained than me. Others here are reluctant to call her out. I believe that one can still disagree with salmon farming and still not align with the activities of Alexandra Morton.

It is true that the industry has manipulated the regulatory regime through what can only be termed as corruption and interference in government in order to accommodate it's operations. This includes not ever having to go through an environmental assessment - thereby avoiding the generation of the background data to quantify those impacts.

Corruption and interference are pretty serious allegations to make. Do you have evidence of this or is this your personal opinion based on your perception of the situation? Cohen was critical of government and industry of environmental assessment. He was not sure if any had been done. It seemed like benthic impacts were looked upon mostly as the trigger for an assessment. He was also critical of the siting criteria which he was not convinced by the testimony given that the present siting criteria considered Fraser Sockeye migration through the "wild salmon narrows". However, since the conclusion of the inquiry there has been much more movement in regards to scientific study with regards to wild salmon-farm fish interactions as well as disease transmission to name a few. Recently, the department has hired more biological and research staff in the marine environment to work on things such as climate change impacts, improved modelling, stock assessment and aquaculture. This is in addition to the collaborative work being done by the Pacific Salmon Foundation, DFO and BC Genome (i.e. Strategic Salmon Health Initiative). This has also involved the industry (which it should) because this work cannot work in isolation of them regardless of what others feel about them. It should also be mentioned that the industry here is subjected to about multiple pieces of provincial and federal legislation - more regulated than most industries as well as most countries than are involved in aquaculture.

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/management-gestion/regs-eng.htm

That is certainly not the fault of the industry's critics. It's not like the critics have not tried to correct the situation - but where they have been successful - the industry flashes-up it's rather impressive PR campaign and tries to invalidate those results and concerns by most often painting the conversation as instead a sporting event where one has to pick a team based on the colour of their jerseys - rather than addressing the concerns. This approach seems to work for many - particularly those who either work or support the industry's perspective. I see those same PR-generated responses embedded in your response: "layman's opinion"... and the rest quoted above.

It's true that critics have tried to work with industry and the government on these issues. In some cases not successful, but in others they have (e.g. BAMP). In some cases it's obvious why some critics can't work with industry or government as they already have preconceived conclusions, are not interested in working collaboratively, are not interested in due diligence, and are working backwards to convict (e.g. Morton). I believe NGOs and critics do have a role to play but collaboration, although necessary, isn't always easy. The goal shouldn't be to determine who is right. If all folks are committed towards objective science and have mutual respect despite having differences then it can work.

For someone that doesn't like this discussion being painted as a sporting event with teams, you and some others here apparently have no problem putting others on teams when you don't agree. So when I see your comments about "PR responses" and how some approach this as a "team based on colour of their jerseys" I do see some hypocrisy.

I find this approach unfortunately quite arrogant and paternalistic - as these articles have been published using the same peer-review process that all science uses - and many other posters have posted links to some of these articles (thank you bigdogeh and others).

Well there are many questionable approaches here on this forum, but I will leave it at that. Peer reviewed work is seen as reliable and credible (sort of like the gold standard), but it doesn't mean that it is beyond being open to criticism. For instance, the peer-reviewed paper which Morton co-authored regarding a fish processing plant (used by Grieg Seafood) on the West Coast appeared to be damning towards towards fish farms because it apparently showed pathogens from processed farm fish being released into the ocean; however, the study failed to mention the rather blatant fact that wild salmon on abundant years are processed at the same plant. The authors never tested those wild salmon for any comparison. The outdated study also failed to mention the improvements made at that plant in regards to waste treatment. When the study came out these improvements were already in place for some time.

Yet - the pro-lobby seems quite attached to the process of invalidating an author by their name - rather than by their science. Furthermore - labeling all those other open net-cage critics as Morton wanna-bees and invalidating their concerns (and science where it exists) - is simply wrong.

I agree that invalidating an author by their name alone without looking at the science that they based their opinion on is not the right approach. However, I don't believe critics of the industry are innocent here. I hear you and understand that people do not want to be labelled as Morton wanna-bees, but on the other hand there are people that don't appreciate being called industry shrills, industry hacks, lobbyists, liars, thieves, wild salmon haters and PR spin machines.
 
Not really bigdogeh. AM could have looked around the downstream corners of the floats and on nearby adjacent points - and likely found more of these fish in larger schools - if she wanted to - to confirm species - if she only had 10 minutes in the pens themselves.
...and a scientific sample permit (but you still get a "like")
 
If the government and industry choose to go against science and public opinion, and continue down the path they've created we will continue to lose our wild salmon, the people and other mammals that depend on the salmon will suffer, and the ecosystems that rely on the salmon will shut down. By the time government does accept that they have gone in the wrong direction it may be too late to save any semblance of a wild run. or maybe they have no intention of saving our wild salmon. it's starting to look that way.

In the mandate letter (that you would have never seen before during the Harper years) it calls on the Minister to "ensure that decisions are based on science, facts and evidence and serve the public interest." We will have to see if this is mandate letter is worth the paper it was written on in 4 years, but for now it seems that this is the direction.

http://pm.gc.ca/eng/minister-fisheries-oceans-and-canadian-coast-guard-mandate-letter
 
For someone that doesn't like this discussion being painted as a sporting event with teams, you and some others here apparently have no problem putting others on teams when you don't agree. So when I see your comments about "PR responses" and how some approach this as a "team based on colour of their jerseys" I do see some hypocrisy..
If someone wears a white shirt - and someone else wears rose-coloured glasses - that shirt might appear red to the person wearing the glasses. I can assure you that I don't buy the standard red/blue shirts off the rack - nor those with a Sea Shepherd or Cermaq logo neither. Whatever colour shirt I wear is associated with open and transparent decision-making and open and public fish health reporting - along with a consensus-based governance and environmental assessment models. Team wild salmon is my "team" - as it is for many others on this forum - as it should be for our regulators - some of which have forgotten who they work for.
 
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Can anyone tell me who funds "slow fish"
They make some very good points in their web site regarding open pen farmed salmon
example taken from their site;
Health
Though often recommended as one of the best animal sources of omega-3 fatty acids, farmed salmon should not be eaten frequently. Farmed salmon flesh contains significant amounts of pollutants. The disinfectant and antibiotic residues left in farming operations can affect consumers' health and increase their resistance to antibiotics.
Want to read more? I found this site very informative.
http://slowfood.com/slowfish/pagine/eng/pagina.lasso?-id_pg=88


"Can anyone tell me who funds "slow fish"
What you say fish farm guys?

Did I miss the answer to this question by FI?
Would like to know more....can anyone help or is it an Alexandra Morton satellite web site with false accusations?
If not, It is concerning that you should not eat Farmed Salmon regularly due to the "disinfectant and antibiotic residues " if it is true!
 
Just finish sweeping the floor here at work. The gum was very hard to remove this morning

Love to see the same visit to the same farm in Nov. to June. Please please put a gopro back in the net pen and show us....disease and all that other stuff.

I have another question. Why is it that all the videos and pictures are from the 1 or 2 months Aug or Sept? Is it because this is the only time fish show signs of stress? Or does the research team only work in fair weather?
I also have the same question as I originally asked. What laws does the fish farm break to warrant an eviction notice by the local native village?
 
So if everyone it correct and fish farms manufacture disease and are causing millions of salmon every year to die then where are all the deceased fish? The video shows fish that are "diseased" and swimming. If millions of wild stock are dying then it should be pretty to show a dead body. Have I tested, link it to farms and bang... Hello minister this is wrong. But I haven't seen any pictures. Are there pictures out there that I have missed?
 
Not all diseased fish die right away. Thus giving millions of free WILD ammunition for people to have tested. Could not the author of the eviction video not find some over the last 40 years and use hard evidence to prove there opinion?
 
Why is it that all the videos and pictures are from the 1 or 2 months Aug or Sept? Is it because this is the only time fish show signs of stress?
Good question Bones. One would expect when the water temperatures warm up and the oxygen drops - there would be more mortalities - outside of any disease outbreak.
What laws does the fish farm break to warrant an eviction notice by the local native village?
Another good question Bones. Not sure what was in the eviction letter - but federally and provincially - those governments are supposed to engage in meaningful consultations - in good faith - over potential infringements (impacts) to FN aquatic resources. As far as I understand it - in the Broughtons - they never were consulted nor agreed to the farm operations. Others may have more to add to this.
So if everyone it correct and fish farms manufacture disease and are causing millions of salmon every year to die then where are all the deceased fish?
As Hambone mentioned - fish normally sink when dead - not float. That's why the industry hires mort divers. This topic of fish sinking when dead was covered on one of the other threads about the Fraser River die-offs.
 
as a former mort diver with 300hrs logged i get the sinking part and the question is still open

my question is around this whole disease thing and i do not understand somethings. one of which is where people say they are disease spreading, pollution spreading........ its in the first sentence of this thread and it is also in the last video. if disease by a net pen is casting off its disease to wild fish then where are all the dead bodies? i mean diseased fish do not catch a disease and die and sink the next day. they swim with the school for quite sometime and after 40 years of sport fishing and seining t or around farms and river mouths. one would thing if this is true then there would be plenty of evidence and i ask where is it to make this claim true?
 
So I'll assume you agree that young wild fish are dying in unknown numbers from being eaten while entering pens and from sea lice.

If the third farm related way of wild fish dying is proven in a lab, would you still be willing to support this industry? I don't have a link I can post that proves salmon found in the wild contain disease. I do think it has been found though and the lab results weren't recognized. All of a sudden there was an investigation after these results came out and the lab lost its license or something like that. Im going from memory here, someone else can find an old link.

Forget about the pros and cons of the industry, just think about the wild salmon on this coast. How can you seriously think this is ok.


i don't support the industry i just ask a few questions about the claims made against the industry. FISH FARMS are killing wild stocks for sure but in my opinion INDIRECTlY.
the person that stamped the approval of atlantic salmon should have been fired. the government should be stepping up and supporting the industry by giving money out to help transfer open pens to land locked closed loop systems, etc ,etc. to tell an industry that produces 130 metric tons (of protein) a year and produces that with very little carbon footprint. that they need to close shop with out evidence seems unfair.
 
as a former mort diver with 300hrs logged i get the sinking part and the question is still open

my question is around this whole disease thing and i do not understand somethings. one of which is where people say they are disease spreading, pollution spreading........ its in the first sentence of this thread and it is also in the last video. if disease by a net pen is casting off its disease to wild fish then where are all the dead bodies? i mean diseased fish do not catch a disease and die and sink the next day. they swim with the school for quite sometime and after 40 years of sport fishing and seining t or around farms and river mouths. one would thing if this is true then there would be plenty of evidence and i ask where is it to make this claim true?


Well.... It's a pretty big ocean. Pretty sure they don't all die at once and in the same location. Also fairly certain crabs and other bottom feeders would eat them up. So your not gonna find a million dead fish in one spot. But you can find totes full of dead ones at fish farms.Simple really if you stop and think about it.
 
Well.... It's a pretty big ocean. Pretty sure they don't all die at once and in the same location. Also fairly certain crabs and other bottom feeders would eat them up. So your not gonna find a million dead fish in one spot. But you can find totes full of dead ones at fish farms.Simple really if you stop and think about it.

the question is not does or doesn't the fish farm have disease. any animal that lives in close quarters to one another is going to spread disease onto one another. the accusations are that fish farms spread disease onto wild stocks. i'm just asking if there is any proof of this.
i didn't ask for a million samples just evidence that this accusation against fish farms is true if its not then...
 
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