Thompson steelhead recovery plan
- Thread starter Derby
- Start date
Derby
Crew Member
What hatchery program on the Squamish that's been gone for 20 years ?
Didn't say the Vedder as a hatchery system is a bad thing? in this case it seems to have been succesful
Thompson tried once fail badly. This particular system it didn't work when it was tried...even caught and released a couple of them back in the day...Every system is different...
finaddict
Well-Known Member
Agreed. Only a very few groups who continue to fight the good fight for Thompson steelhead. SSBC, BCFDF, BCFFF and the Kingfishers.
Derby
Crew Member
Ha..thought u would like that one.
... Easy to tell who they are by the patch... there can be lots of idiots on the rivers... its what perspective you are coming from and I can only suggest u cannot judge the book bye the cover... yup back to main channel... hatchery or no hatchery that is the question... my vote at this particular time in No
... Easy to tell who they are by the patch... there can be lots of idiots on the rivers... its what perspective you are coming from and I can only suggest u cannot judge the book bye the cover... yup back to main channel... hatchery or no hatchery that is the question... my vote at this particular time in NoFishmyster
Well-Known Member
Does anyone know what the Thompson's outgoing smolt numbers are? Anybody ever investigated the invertebrate composition and how it has been changing over the years? How about the heterotrophic plate count or water alkalinity trend? Does anybody here know jack s..t about the state of stream ecology of the Thompson???
My feelings are that closing the Thompson will only eliminate more of the few people that care about the Thompson steelhead's existence!
Food webs and juvenile fish populations on Vancouver island have been on the mend since the winter of 2014-2015. Unfortunately the adult populations will not show the benefits till 2020. Stream and soil alkalinity is still continuing to rise here. What is going on in the Thompson as of late???
Does anyone know if the same changes have started to happen in the interior streams yet?
Maybe a movement to understanding what water chemistry effects have caused the crash in s/h populations COAST WIDE is in order before eliminating the anglers that release the fish we all love!!
I think Bob Hooton has been brainwashing some people into thinking that c&r fishing is harmful and science has no place here! lol.
My feelings are that closing the Thompson will only eliminate more of the few people that care about the Thompson steelhead's existence!
Food webs and juvenile fish populations on Vancouver island have been on the mend since the winter of 2014-2015. Unfortunately the adult populations will not show the benefits till 2020. Stream and soil alkalinity is still continuing to rise here. What is going on in the Thompson as of late???
Does anyone know if the same changes have started to happen in the interior streams yet?
Maybe a movement to understanding what water chemistry effects have caused the crash in s/h populations COAST WIDE is in order before eliminating the anglers that release the fish we all love!!
I think Bob Hooton has been brainwashing some people into thinking that c&r fishing is harmful and science has no place here! lol.
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
Honestly everyone. The same water chemistry phenomena that killed the productivity of the Thompson has been happening here too on the island. look at the Gold river, 4000+ s/h in the 1980's down to maybe 250 last winter, probably less. No gill nets to blame. It's been happening everywhere. Pristine waters on the central coast where there is no human intervention have similar stock status. I have been watching it all for years and its not coming from human interference. It is all in the water chemistry which has recently changed here. It has probably improved there too. Does anybody know anyone anywhere who has ever examined the water chemistry of the Thompson river?
finaddict
Well-Known Member
You mean Kamloop's toilet? ;-)
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
That is a good point.
Kamloops toilet cant be any worse than the Calgary toilet (Bow river) which has a productive ecosystem. If there was is any sewage contamination leeching into the river as long as it comes in contact with the correct bacteria it will all become beneficial nutrient. The same type of pollutant introduced to a stream lacking the correct bacteria becomes a harmful contaminant. Just like a septic system that needs bacteria reintroduced if harsh cleaners are dumped down the drain. Acid rain has showered the land for the last 30 years up till the last couple. The stream ecology has suffered coast wide because of it.
As for a hatchery. I would have to say that dumping fish into a stream without knowing exactly what the water quality condition, trends or invertebrate status is very bad fish culturing. In perspective, no PROFESSIONAL farmer would sew any kind of seed into untested or unconditioned soil and then expect a crop after. This seems to be a common practice for hatcheries all over but many still wonder why the project is mediocre. We are stuck it the stone ages!
It's too bad that nobody, with pull, in DFO has aver been a fanatic aquarist or run there own commercial fish hatchery. Then someone would understand the importance of water quality and bacterial stability.
http://www.patagonia.com/blog/2016/12/doubling-down-on-the-broken-promise-of-fish-hatcheries
Here's a little writeup on hatcheries in the US ,if anyone's interested
Here's a little writeup on hatcheries in the US ,if anyone's interested
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
Thanks Derby. What would really help is to rally support in CORRECTLY diagnosing the reason for the declining stocks. I keep hearing and reading that it is a bit of a mystery but when I apply rain chemistry trends to well known stream ecology science the mystery is not so suspenseful. In this area salmon carcasses recently started decomposing at three times the rate as the past two decades. Algae species has changed all over the island, even in my well water. Now stream invertebrates are starting to repopulate local streams. Guess what, the Stamp river now has a remarkable increase in juvenile s/h!!! It's all got to be linked together.
I personally don't feel a hatchery will do anything positive for a sustainable s/h future unless it is to enhance probiotics and invertebrates. In the process of enhancing the food web the water quality issues will be exposed. The hatchery program on the Stamp river is not proving to be very successful at providing much of a vibrant fishery the last bunch of years. It's time to innovate and explore new options.
FYI, the commercial hatchery at Great Central Lake adds calcium carbonate to their water to raise alkalinity. They contain water taken from GCL which had an alkalinity of 16ppm on average and they raise it to 23ppm so heterotrophic bacteria can convert the fish waste into nitrate. The raw water from GCL was not suitable for fish culture. At low alkalinity levels the bacteria cannot function correctly. This is what a professional hatchery that requires success does. Robertson creek hatchery doesn't sample or treat their water! go figure.
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
Volcanos are most likely the greatest influential factor in contaminating the rain. Attached is a rain chemistry chart from Saturna island. Mt Pinatubo erupted in June of 1991 and by 1994 our rain ph drops down to 3.5. Our rain ph now is averaging 5.6!!! I cant imagine any other force that could cause such a pulse in acidity other than mother nature.
Attachments
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
None of them yet. Hunting season is over so I will get back to it.
There has been a few I have discussed this with. I won't name drop but I have talked to some scientists from DFO but they didn't show any interest in exploring or discussing the topic much. They just quit responding to emails which made me feel like I was annoying them so... Another DFO science guy I had just followed up with said he will contact me possibly in the spring to discuss the topic.... MOE "anadramous fish specialist for region 1" didn't shown much interest...Rivers institute guys were left messages to contact me but no response ever....Fresh water fisheries society people didn't respond enthusiastically either... If any of the scientists you recommended aren't already reading and responded the stuff I have posted the chances are that they aren't going to give a s#$T either. Their passion will be for other attractions in life other than fishing Thompson steelhead.....So no urgency from the other people I have contacted so far. I honestly feel like I am intruding on their situation when questioning stuff that they are supposed to be specialists in. I'm afraid to say but I think everyone with the credentials would be ashamed to take advise or learn from a fisherman. Even if it was a great idea.
I could use help in this. Please feel free to contact any of those scientists on my behalf. Let them read any of the ecology concepts that I have posted and let them know who I am. Help me find the right people that can either prove this concept wrong or get the ball rolling into a progressive direction. Let them know that I am not afraid of being wrong and still waiting for someone to prove me so.
Lastly, Dave if you know anyone with access to historic municipal water test results and has a curiosity for this kind of stuff, please introduce us.
sly_karma
Crew Member
If stream ecology, spawning habitat and fish passage issues are addressed to create a viable path to recovery, a hatchery program with broodstock sourced from the threatened population of course is a useful kickstarter to aid and speed the recovery process.
That article has very provocative language and personally I think the guy is a bit off kilter, a major axe to grind at the least. Whilst I agree that just dumping hatchery fish into a system without addressing the multiple problems that have caused stock extinction is pointless, the hatchery fish have the same DNA as the wild. The article makes them out to be something akin to GMO foods. The danger of hatchery programs is when authorities think that they're all that is needed to offset the losses being wrought by stream chemistry, impeded fish passage, overfishing, bycatch losses, seawater conditions, pollution and climate change. Funding only hatcheries when money is much needed for stream rejuvenation, fish passage structures, fishing regulation enforcement and habitat research, that's shortsighted and wrong. The hydro utilities in Washington that I've worked with own and fund hatcheries, but they also employ numerous fish and habitat biologists and fund fish passage projects and habitat enhancement as part of their ongoing ESA mitigation programs. I think the article misses the mark because the writer is fixated on one issue.
That article has very provocative language and personally I think the guy is a bit off kilter, a major axe to grind at the least. Whilst I agree that just dumping hatchery fish into a system without addressing the multiple problems that have caused stock extinction is pointless, the hatchery fish have the same DNA as the wild. The article makes them out to be something akin to GMO foods. The danger of hatchery programs is when authorities think that they're all that is needed to offset the losses being wrought by stream chemistry, impeded fish passage, overfishing, bycatch losses, seawater conditions, pollution and climate change. Funding only hatcheries when money is much needed for stream rejuvenation, fish passage structures, fishing regulation enforcement and habitat research, that's shortsighted and wrong. The hydro utilities in Washington that I've worked with own and fund hatcheries, but they also employ numerous fish and habitat biologists and fund fish passage projects and habitat enhancement as part of their ongoing ESA mitigation programs. I think the article misses the mark because the writer is fixated on one issue.
GLG
Well-Known Member
What your talking about is acid rain and we know the cause of that and no..... volcanos are not to blame.
http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/acid-rain/
Fishmyster
Well-Known Member
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