The Future of Fish Farms ????

[Birdsnest]

As your letter states

Creative Salmon wanted to learn the cause of jaundice syndrome affecting some of their farmed Chinook salmon. Their veterinarian sent samples to me for validated diagnostic testing and to Dr. Miller for experimental testing.

Weather it is a problem or not I believe is the purpose of the investigation. They are not seeing any escalated moralities associated with this and it is only found at one site. Obviously, there is an opportunity to jump to conclusions on this issue, any volunteers???

 

[tincan]

To quote from Upton Sinclair:

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it"

I think it's a very relevant quote for many people working in industries that are harmful/destructive and that have "externalities" that are not accounted for. Suffice to say fish farming in its current state in BC is one of those industries.

 

[Birdsnest]

To quote from Upton Sinclair:

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it"

I think it's a very relevant quote for many people working in industries that are harmful/destructive and that have "externalities" that are not accounted for. Suffice to say fish farming in its current state in BC is one of those industries.

Same could be assigned to the activism industry. Make no mistake people make money being activists which is fine.

 

[Gunsmith]

Anything that is done to produce rapid growth to fish or animals either in gene enhancement or high growth feed does not bode well for us. We are already seeing the effects on humans from eating factory farm beef, chicken, and pork and now fish. Our children are having growth issues allergen issues and other problems that have not yet been accounted for this.
We mine for profit, we cut wood for profit, we grow food for profit, we are always looking for a quicker way of making money, where will it stop and how much are you willing to risk?
As you, I have worked for industry that wrecks the environment for profit and find that we are entering the vortex of the whirlpool by supporting these practises and am beginning to believe that we are getting close and may already be at the point of no return.
I would not eat feedlot beef, mass produced chickens or pork, and now fish on a continuous basis and actually will not buy farmed fish.
I you think it is so good and healthy, well fill your boots.

 

[Foxsea]

The future of fish farming ...

... aquaponics: growing veggies next door to closed containment fish farms, using fish farm waste as fertilizer for the veggies!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t95KsHOfH0g
There's lots of info on this but...
Who's doing it in B.C.?

 

[trophywife]

aquaponics is a great way to grow!!!fish waste IS plant food ...

 

[outback]

aquaponics definitely has a future.Have been involved/ interested for quite some time, NOT very effective for trout and salmon though. Tilapia is the prime fish for that, because its vegetarian and can be fed plant scraps.

As for the Non fish farms vs Fish farmers... Give it a rest. This is the internet...

 

[captain_no_fun]

Hey Birdsnest where does the fish feed for the Creative Salmon originate? I'm curious because I keep hearing how terrible some of the fish meal fisheries are.

 

[Birdsnest]

Hey Birdsnest where does the fish feed for the Creative Salmon originate? I'm curious because I keep hearing how terrible some of the fish meal fisheries are.

From the website: http://www.creativesalmon.com/our-farming-methods.php

A natural, GMO-free diet sourced from FAO (the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization) certified fisheries only. By using a feed rich in fish meal and fish oil, we raise salmon rich in Omega-3 fatty acids. Creative Salmon's fish are fed a diet consisting primarily of fish meal, fish oil and certified organic wheat. Notice about Phaffia (natural pigment)

I honestly could no answer where.

 

[cuttlefish]

aquaponics definitely has a future.Have been involved/ interested for quite some time, NOT very effective for trout and salmon though. Tilapia is the prime fish for that, because its vegetarian and can be fed plant scraps.

As for the Non fish farms vs Fish farmers... Give it a rest. This is the internet...

Too true. Aquaculture/ponics is needed to produce protein for a hungry, growing population. Down the road it will likely be determined that salmon, trout, tuna, cod, etc. were not the right choice of species.

 

[seadna]

Hmm. Now you really have me wondering what you do. Who puts 300 or so hours on the water a year?

Someone who fishes as often as he can. I spent 4 days in May fishing spring kings on the Columbia River (Drano Lake). That was a bout 36 hours. I spent 9 days of full time vacation in June in Tofino and the surrounding waters (about 70 hours). I then spent every weekend but 1 between June 29 and Sept 3 on the water out of Neah Bay (9 weekends x 2.5 days x 8hours/day = 180 hours). Then theres the occasional early or late season fishing/crabbing trip. I work 60-80hrs/week when I'm not fishing and 40-60 when I am (10-12 hour days are the norm). I also fish with a lot of scientists so even when we're fishing, there's some science talk happening.

So whats you opinion on ISA being in bc?
What are your thoughts on IHN?
How about this PVR/HSMI thing?

I had a fisheries biologist with the USGS come to a freshman seminar class I ran this past year and he talked a bit to the class about ISA and other fish pathogens. I had a nice talk with him afterwards about ISA. My perception from talking to him (AT THAT TIME - Spring 2012) was that ISA has definitely been observed in BC salmon but that it wasn't yet proven that the atlantic salmon farms were the source. I haven't followed the literature on that topic since May so I don't know what has been published since then. However, the increase in virulence that I mentioned (due to less selective pressure in farms) has been observed in ISA and it was a big problem in Chile. In that case it was clear that the source was from fry obtained from Norway.

I haven't looked into IHN or PVR/HSMI but I can. It will take me awhile to read the literature on those topics and be in a position to comment in a meaningful way.

Oh - on edit - I wanted to mention that one thing the U.S. government did that was very smart was to separate the fisheries scientists from NOAA (the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration) and put them in the U.S.G.S. Since NOAA is also regulating fisheries and partially responsible for regulating the commercial side of things, it was though that it was better to have the science separate from the political influence that NOAA gets. This is something BC might look at.

 

[seadna]

I stand duly chastened!!
However, my point is it will not matter what the pedigree of the scientific source papers you quote, or how well researched it is, Birdsnest cannot and will not accept it because he is incapable of understanding it!
I am not insulting his intelligence, I am pointing out very clearly his lack of qualifications and education to be making pronouncements on these papers, which is not the same thing!
I am sure there are some very intelligent fundamentalist. They are nevertheless ignorant and uneducated. What analogy would you use to characterise someone who makes broad dismissals of papers in a peer reviewed journal such as National Academy of Sciences as "not solid science"? Or who refers to qualified scientists such as yourself as "know-it-alls"?

You shouldn't in one sentence say "I am not insulting his intelligence" and 2 sentence later say "They are nevertheless ignorant and uneducated" when you've previously compared Birdsnest to a fundamentalist. I personally believe that anyone, including Birdsnest is perfectly capable of understanding the science if he approaches it with an open mind and perhaps has some help explaining the terminology and language to him. That's what I was offering to do. As my mom used to say, "You'll catch more flies with honey than with salt".

 

[seadna]

Same could be assigned to the activism industry. Make no mistake people make money being activists which is fine.

I'd be willing to bet that Alexandra Morton's personal salary is considerably lower than mine and that most of the money she raises is used to support research. The level of $'s she raises are SMALL compared to the size of the fish farming industry so that's not really a fair comparison.

 

[seadna]

Anything that is done to produce rapid growth to fish or animals either in gene enhancement or high growth feed does not bode well for us. We are already seeing the effects on humans from eating factory farm beef, chicken, and pork and now fish. Our children are having growth issues allergen issues and other problems that have not yet been accounted for this.
We mine for profit, we cut wood for profit, we grow food for profit, we are always looking for a quicker way of making money, where will it stop and how much are you willing to risk?
As you, I have worked for industry that wrecks the environment for profit and find that we are entering the vortex of the whirlpool by supporting these practises and am beginning to believe that we are getting close and may already be at the point of no return.
I would not eat feedlot beef, mass produced chickens or pork, and now fish on a continuous basis and actually will not buy farmed fish.
I you think it is so good and healthy, well fill your boots.

I would claim that the biggest effects we are currently seeing on and in our children is not due to "gene enhancement" or "high feed growth" or "factory farm beef, chicken etc" but rather due to eating too much high fat, high sugar diet, eating too few fruits and veggies and exercising too damn little.

 

[Gunsmith]

Right you are but it still not the best. I prefer naturally grown foods whenever they are available.

I would claim that the biggest effects we are currently seeing on and in our children is not due to "gene enhancement" or "high feed growth" or "factory farm beef, chicken etc" but rather due to eating too much high fat, high sugar diet, eating too few fruits and veggies and exercising too damn little.

 

[Birdsnest]

Seadna,
I think most also agree that DFO is in conflict on the salmon farm thing. Lets not forget that it was Morton who forced this issue in the courts. DFO should just stick to managing the greed from all the user groups. Never the less b c salmon farms are very regulated.

As far as the ISA thing to the best of my understanding the isa that has been found all over bc is not isa the european strain. To best explain it would be to say it is ISA- like in the sense that when tested it only shows some markers from on other ISA test. There is a lot to the testing but I understand that if you can not culture the virus then you can not make a test for it. To date nobody has been able to get the virus to duplicate. The best explanation for it is it is like ISA but it is its own pacific version that seems to not be doing much at all to wild salmon. So I am wondering why so many people are running around waving the isa is here flag from europe because nobody really knows much about it and it seems to have been in bc since long before salmon farms. Morton and Rick R seam convinced that it is the european ISA and i just is not. AM i suppose to separate her papers from her blog?

I do not think that morton makes huge money from anything but I can well assure you that she isn't scratching to put money into rrsp's. Financially I am pretty sure she comes from extreme wealth in the US. It doesn't really matter if she makes money or not but people seem to want to broadcast that she is not making much money. I just think it doesn't matter.

PCR testing is very very complex stuff that the average joe can not fully understand. Not me anyways. lol I am working on it.

 

[seadna]

Seadna,
I think most also agree that DFO is in conflict on the salmon farm thing. Lets not forget that it was Morton who forced this issue in the courts. DFO should just stick to managing the greed from all the user groups. Never the less b c salmon farms are very regulated.

As far as the ISA thing to the best of my understanding the isa that has been found all over bc is not isa the european strain.

That's my understanding also based on what I learned in May.

To best explain it would be to say it is ISA- like in the sense that when tested it only shows some markers from on other ISA test. There is a lot to the testing but the end all it if you can not culture the virus then you can not make a test for it. The best explanation for it is it is like ISA but it is its own pacific version that seems to not be doing much at all to wild salmon.

You're pretty close to correct here. It is ISA (not just ISA-like) and by looking at the sequence of the virus one can tell if it is most similar to the strains from Europe or to strains that naturally exist in the local environment. My understanding is that many of the ISA isolates tested (as of May) look more like they are from the Pacific. However in May it wasn't clear as there were some isolates that also looked European like. Also, culturing the virus isn't really necessary to test for it. One can use a technique called PCR to amplify viral sequences and then one can sequence them. I'll see what data I can find regarding the testing. One of the issues here though is that the BC govt and the Canadian govt. are not IMHO properly funding the research in this area so good data may be hard to come by. One reason why you hear so much about Morton's work is she's one of the few people doing it and she's self funding by raising money (here on this board and elsewhere).

So I am wondering why so many people are running around waving the isa is here flag from europe because nobody really knows much about it and it seems to have been in bc since long before salmon farms. Morton and Rick R seam convinced that it is the european ISA and i just is not.

I think it's still an open question but like I said I need to read more in this area. It is however DEFINITELY true that ISA can be concentrated and become more virulent in fish farms. It's been a big problem in fish farms in Chile and Norway and it's definitely worth worrying about. However, the degree of risk from ISA here is unknown.

AM i suppose to separate her papers from her blog?

I don't read Morton's blog so I can't really comment on it. But yes I would separate her papers from her blog as her papers (especially the ones in good scientific journals) are subjected to peer review. In brief, every time we send in a paper for publication, it's sent out to (typically 3, sometimes more) external reviewers who are experts in the field. They read the paper and go over the data in detail. They write reviews and often require additional work, writing or explanation prior to allowing it to be published. It's a pretty rigorous process. That doesn't mean that **** doesn't get published. However, once something is published other scientists read it with the same critical eye. Crap usually gets recognized a crap pretty quickly and either letters to the editor or conflicting articles get published. Then if a real conflict starts to develop, others get in on the act and attempt to reproduce the experiments. Eventually, this leads to the truth. So I make a HUGE distinction between a PNAS paper (one of the best scientific journals in the world) and a blog (where one can spout off anything).

I do not think that morton makes huge money from anything but I can well assure you that she isn't scratching to put money into rrsp's. Financially I am pretty sure she comes from extreme wealth in the US. It doesn't really matter if she makes money or not but people seem to want to broadcast that she is not making much money. I just think it doesn't matter.

 

[Birdsnest]

http://avc.upei.ca/dr-fred-kibenge-invited-testify-bc-salmon-inquiry

From the expert himself.

 

[Birdsnest]

I think it's still an open question but like I said I need to read more in this area. It is however DEFINITELY true that ISA can be concentrated and become more virulent in fish farms. It's been a big problem in fish farms in Chile and Norway and it's definitely worth worrying about. However, the degree of risk from ISA here is unknown.

Well it seems to have to withstood the test of time in BC and certainly has not done anything to any atlantic stocks in bc which we well know that the are like a canary in a coal mine when it comes to pacific viruses. It did cause big problems in chile and Norway yes but those were entirely different scenarios. Basically chile did not have the proper protocols in place, as we do in canada, to prevent the import of the european strain of ISA. Norway, well ISA has been there the all along naturally.

 

[Englishman]

Same could be assigned to the activism industry. Make no mistake people make money being activists which is fine.

Oh for goodness sake!

I'd be willing to bet that Alexandra Morton's personal salary is considerably lower than mine and that most of the money she raises is used to support research. The level of $'s she raises are SMALL compared to the size of the fish farming industry so that's not really a fair comparison.

Birdsnest, in this quote Seadna in his polite way , has challenged your false accusation. I am going to be more direct in my reply. How on earth can you compare a multi-million dollar industry with activist organisations run on a shoestring budget funded by donations from the public such as myself?

Unable to understand or even accept the science you are reduced to impugning the motives of the activists and the people who fund them by implying their motive is financial. You have swallowed the indoctrination and propaganda of your employers so completely it is unbelievable.