Something Wicked This Way Comes - ON THE LINE

[tincan]

one more thing, walleyes, some of the undertones of your post seem like threats, dont even try and threaten me or anyone on this forum or in the hositality or fishing industry okay..

The hositality industry lol,,,,genius..

Don't threaten you why,, what you going to do,, shut down a lodge ooooohhhh now what.. And make no mistake about it,, the majority of the tourist money in your province comes from AB the vast majority of it. Keep pissin on the source boys,, keep pissin on the source.. Its all fine and dandy to threaten someone else's livelihood eh just as long as its not yours..

Don't worry boys,, the pipeline "WILL" get built,, we will make a ton on it and heck we may even throw a few crumbs your way in the meantime lol..

walleyes, Can you please explain the slight difference in your comments and this report from Stats Canada:

Here is a link to the full report - http://www.jti.gov.bc.ca/research/IndustryPerformance/pdfs/Value_ of_ Tourism_ 2011.sflb.pdf
Here is an excerpt that shows you clearly have ZERO clue what you are talking about. I don't think to call people names or call them out but when you are this off-base I felt it my responsibility in order to keep the integrity of this forum to a moderate level.

Overall visitor volume
In 2009, there were almost 15 million overnight visitors in BC, a slight increase of 2% over 2008.16 About half of the visitors were BC residents (Figure 26). Visitors from other parts of Canada accounted for 20%, while international visitors accounted for the remaining 28% of overall visitor volume. However, international visitors accounted for nearly 40% of visitor expenditures, while Canadian and BC residents each accounted for about 30%.

Domestic market
Visitors from Canada accounted for nearly 11 million travellers in 2009, about a 7% increase from 2008. Of travellers from Canada, BC residents made up the largest share of visitor volume (72%) and expenditures (53%) in 2009 (Figure 27). Alberta was the second largest domestic market of overnight visitors to BC, representing one-fifth of the Canadian visitor volume and 27% of expenditures. Overall, visitors from Canada spent about 2% less in 2009 than in 2008.

To save you time with the math: On 2009 Expenditures of $7.8B, All of Canada (other than BC) accounted for 29% of that $7.8B (around $2.26B), of which Alberta was responsible for about half of, say $1.13B, aka 14.5% of total tourism dollars in BC. Nothing to scoff at but by definition 'majority' means more than 50% and 'vast majority', as you stated, surely means more than that. Looking forward to a response.

 

[reelfast]

The best way to move oilsands oil to refineries and market is by pipelines, either east, or south to the U.S. They are quite safe and in the unlikely event of a spill the oil is much smaller and easier to clean up than a seaborne spill from a VLCC in trouble.

i suggest that alberta keep its pipeline north of the international border. a safe pipeline?? that is fiction and has already been demonstrated by another pipeline operated by this same company. i believe that spill happened in wisconsin and closed down a river system for over a year while they tried to clean up the 'small spill'.

couple that with tar sands taking more energy to produce than what the product is worth and you get the idea that this is all about big oil and gas, once again, trying to make mega bucks at the expense of you and me.

if your first nations want to take the payola and you folks are ok with 743 sensitive river crossings, well that will be your problem to deal with. hopefully this will be stalled until after the 2012 elections down this way and then we will see how this actually plays out. of course if one of the GOP idiots is elected president, it will be welcome to the destruction of our planet as both of them seem to be living in another century.

 

[Gunsmith]

You know reelfast you should look before calling the kettle black. The reason that pipeline would exist would be to supply the demand you folks have for oil. It also seems to me you have gone into countries with the military under the pretext of protection of rights, and notably those that have oil. For your information a lot of the money flowing up here is American. It is not tar sands it is OIL sands, you are the folks with the La Brea tar pits. Also that is misleading saying that the production uses more energy than produced,,get your facts straight the big American interests would not be here if that would be true. It is definitely not the cleanest but there is little blood shed over this product. Go back and check the record of your COAL strip mines and the pollution that is produced from them, which much of it blows north to your friendly neighbor's lungs. By the way that pipeline was bought from an american company so it was probably installed with shoddy material and poor practices and most likely was a wreck before it was purchased by Enbridge. Needless to say keep getting your oil from Venezuela, Iraq and other dictator run countries.
I do not support all endeavors directly, but as you, I, and others do we support all this by purchasing petroleum products. So quit the name calling and refuse to buy these products or belly up to the trough.

i suggest that alberta keep its pipeline north of the international border. a safe pipeline?? that is fiction and has already been demonstrated by another pipeline operated by this same company. i believe that spill happened in wisconsin and closed down a river system for over a year while they tried to clean up the 'small spill'.

couple that with tar sands taking more energy to produce than what the product is worth and you get the idea that this is all about big oil and gas, once again, trying to make mega bucks at the expense of you and me.

if your first nations want to take the payola and you folks are ok with 743 sensitive river crossings, well that will be your problem to deal with. hopefully this will be stalled until after the 2012 elections down this way and then we will see how this actually plays out. of course if one of the GOP idiots is elected president, it will be welcome to the destruction of our planet as both of them seem to be living in another century.

 

[reelfast]

well gunsmith, getting facts straight is important. the proposal to transport oil to the refineries along the gulf coast is destined for asia, not the US market as you imply. there will be no relief to the US consumer as a result of this pipeline but instead higher profits for YOUR big oil and gas as they sell YOUR product on the open market. that is a fact.

of course, the energy industry in this country is full of bad examples of stewardship to the environment as well as their employees. i would not attempt to cover that up or defend this industry for all they have done to our planet.

the fact is, however, extracting oil in alberta consumes more energy than it will eventually generate and is the DIRTEST form of energy product to date. it was not by accident that the EU held a vote to condem the alberta oil as the most polluting on the planet, another fact.

and i would never attempt to defend 'nation building' by whomever is in office at the federal level. in fact, i would suggest you read 'overthrown' as a disgusting treatis regarding how the US government, over time, and in response to corporate pressures have interved all around the globe, disgusting. so i really believe that if the zionists in israel are dumb enough to strike iran, the US should step aside and let the chips fall where they may.

all that said, kicking your tar sands this way won't be tolerated by many of us.

 

[Gunsmith]

I take it you got your info from Greenpeace or Al Gore. I have worked up here for the past 34 years and I know for a fact who owns what. Just before I retired from Syncrude EXON MOBIL read and weep who is a majority owner sent two assholes up here to get things straight. They not only screwed up moral but also indirectly were the cause of note 2400 ducks being killed by bitumen lost to tails. The OIL being shipped to the Gulf is not going to Asia as you have been led to believe but to your hungry refineries. I would suggest you sweep the mess off your own floors and stay out of ours. And again I re-iterate you do not know what you are tailking about.
Coal is the dirtiest form of energy and your contry reigns supreme in burning this fuel.

 

[Islandgirl]

I take it you got your info from Greenpeace or Al Gore. I have worked up here for the past 34 years and I know for a fact who owns what. Just before I retired from Syncrude EXON MOBIL read and weep who is a majority owner sent two assholes up here to get things straight. They not only screwed up moral but also indirectly were the cause of note 2400 ducks being killed by bitumen lost to tails. The OIL being shipped to the Gulf is not going to Asia as you have been led to believe but to your hungry refineries. I would suggest you sweep the mess off your own floors and stay out of ours. And again I re-iterate you do not know what you are tailking about.
Coal is the dirtiest form of energy and your contry reigns supreme in burning this fuel.

Well said Gunsmith.

The US refineries have ALREADY been tooled to accept our bituman. The supply going south is to fuel YOUR OWN petroleum demands.

The USA has an aircraft carrier in the Gulf to ensure the supply of bloody oil does not get interrrupted on its way to your country.
Our oil is readily available to your country and you guys need it!

 

[GLG]

My understanding is the oil would be upgraded in the US and then shipped to china.
Has something changed or have I been mis-informed.
If so can someone please give me a link that shows the true end destination for this oilsands oil.
GLG

 

[reelfast]

I take it you got your info from Greenpeace or Al Gore. I have worked up here for the past 34 years and I know for a fact who owns what. Just before I retired from Syncrude EXON MOBIL read and weep who is a majority owner sent two assholes up here to get things straight. They not only screwed up moral but also indirectly were the cause of note 2400 ducks being killed by bitumen lost to tails. The OIL being shipped to the Gulf is not going to Asia as you have been led to believe but to your hungry refineries. I would suggest you sweep the mess off your own floors and stay out of ours. And again I re-iterate you do not know what you are tailking about.
Coal is the dirtiest form of energy and your contry reigns supreme in burning this fuel.

folks like you have your heads up a very dark place that i will not enter. i suggest you check with the EU to determine what is the 'dirtest' form of energy right now. YOU should get your facts straight before trying to kick sand this way. i suggest you negotiate with your first nations and keep all of that dirty oil north of the border, case closed.

and i repeat, because it has been all over the news south of the border, none of this bitumen is destined for the US consumer market. it ALL will be sold to the highest bidder on the global market, can you spell CHINA??????? and since the US is such a glutton for canadian oil, why not suggest shutting off the supply and see what happens. now that would be interesting. so long as canadian big oil and gas can make billions from sales to the US, nothing is going to change. but moving the dirtest fuel on the planet? well i suspect that has not been resolved. best to talk it over with harper for a resolution.

 

[Gunsmith]

That may be right I am not sure on that one but I do know that we get less per bbl from the Americans this way than we would through Gateway, but don't tell Reelfast that.

My understanding is the oil would be upgraded in the US and then shipped to china.
Has something changed or have I been mis-informed.
If so can someone please give me a link that shows the true end destination for this oilsands oil.
GLG

 

[GLG]

OK so i'm looking around and found this in a q/a fact sheet on here

The crude oil Keystone XL will transport will not be shipped to China; it will be refined at U.S. refineries on the Gulf Coast to meet American demand for petroleum products.
http://www.transcanada.com/docs/Key_Projects/know_the_facts_kxl.pdf


It also talks about the price per barrel.

TransCanada does not set oil or gas prices. In fact, the price of international oil prices has no impact on the operation of our pipeline and we do not profit from changing market changes. Prices are set on a global level. Recently, for example, oil that is imported and sold on the U.S. Gulf Coast is trading for just over $102
U.S. per barrel. Western Canadian oil is currently trading for $68 U.S. per barrel. So in addition to enhancing America’s energy security, the price to acquire Canadian oil is much lower.

 

[Sculpin]

OK so i'm looking around and found this in a q/a fact sheet on here

The crude oil Keystone XL will transport will not be shipped to China; it will be refined at U.S. refineries on the Gulf Coast to meet American demand for petroleum products.
http://www.transcanada.com/docs/Key_Projects/know_the_facts_kxl.pdf


It also talks about the price per barrel.

TransCanada does not set oil or gas prices. In fact, the price of international oil prices has no impact on the operation of our pipeline and we do not profit from changing market changes. Prices are set on a global level. Recently, for example, oil that is imported and sold on the U.S. Gulf Coast is trading for just over $102
U.S. per barrel. Western Canadian oil is currently trading for $68 U.S. per barrel. So in addition to enhancing America’s energy security, the price to acquire Canadian oil is much lower.

So if we ship to China directly the US refineries miss out on the upgrade and the massive profits of selling it to China themselves. Jealous neighbour maybe? That is how I have read into it.

 

[Gunsmith]

Trans-canada just charge at a contracted price, as you say the price is determined by supply and demand. The product is being held back due to unavailable space in the pipeline. So that in effect tends to pushes prices lower. The fact is that China is willing to pay more for our heavy oil. So this is why they are trying to push it that way. I am still stymied at how an American who lives in a country that has a good portion of it's population that still thinks Canadians live in Igloos can know so much about our "dirty" oil. We don't have our heads up our asses.

 

[GLG]

So if we ship to China directly the US refineries miss out on the upgrade and the massive profits of selling it to China themselves. Jealous neighbour maybe? That is how I have read into it.

No they would not ship to china as that make no sense.
Think of it this way.
Say you have a company called Sculpin oil and welding
You produce 100 gallons of gas a month at 1 dollar a gallon from your oil side of the company.
However the welding business is good and all your trucks need 200 gallons a month at 2 dollars a gallon.
You would not sell your gas to your buddy at 1 dollar and then go by gas at 2 dollar to fill you needs.

I know it's kind of simple but I think it makes my point.
GLG

 

[GLG]

Now the gateway folks have a point that we can sell Canadian oil to china at a higher price then to our friends down south. The problem is, is the risk we take on the coast and in the rivers that such a project gives us worth it?
Does exporting 30 years worth of oil to china have any effect on the economic well being on future generations?
Could we leave it in the ground for another 50 years and let those unborn Canadians have a supply for their needs. Do we sell now so we can run to the bank and count our money.

Reminds me of the time when Alberta had the Heritage Trust Fund.
6 billion dollars set a side for a rainy day and future generations.
No sooner then Lougheed retired the next guy spent/pissed and lent it all away.
Politicians are very good at spending other peoples money.
GLG

 

[Sculpin]

No they would not ship to china as that make no sense.
Think of it this way.
Say you have a company called Sculpin oil and welding
You produce 100 gallons of gas a month at 1 dollar a gallon from your oil side of the company.
However the welding business is good and all your trucks need 200 gallons a month at 2 dollars a gallon.
You would not sell your gas to your buddy at 1 dollar and then go by gas at 2 dollar to fill you needs.

I know it's kind of simple but I think it makes my point.
GLG

Ok then if they are using it for their own use then they are still concerned that we "may" be shipping directly to China and they have lost out.

 

[reelfast]

there are a limited number of refineries which are able to deal with bitumen. unfortunately, several of these are along the gulf coast of the US. there is no 'upgrade' only refining to produce a product. now a couple of other facts to consider:

- the largest dollar export product from the US in 2011 was refined petroleum products
- the consumption of gasoline in the US is declining and continues on that trend line
- the amount of product yet to be refined in the US is at an all time record hight, no shortages here
- the run up in pricing is almost solely due to unregulated speculative trading on the futures markets, the millionaire/billionaire casino of choice
- what we are experiencing has zero to do with supply and demand in the US
- canadians don't live in igloos
- the sources of information south of the international border seem to have more to share with citizens than those north of that border, dirty oil is discussed by many sources.
- since dirty oil is not one of our exports, the chorus is rising to allow canadians to deal with their dirty oil north of the border, however they choose to do so
- all canadians i have personnally met do NOT have their heads in that very dark place.

since this is not a supply/demand issue for the US market place, no matter what happens with the XL pipeline will have zero impact on our consumer prices. a realistic take on jobs is about 5,000 US jobs during construction, far fewer during operation. the Alaska pipeline is a good example of how this will play out. so, in short, there is not a single viable, defensiable arguement that supports getting involved with canadian big oil and gas, not a one.

canadians, deal with your own mess, and go in peace to whatever conclusion you come too.

 

[Gunsmith]

You have made that clear I will try to make that happen for you. I guess then it would be usless to try to sell you an igloo made out of Canadian plastic?

 

[GLG]

Boy's what a friggen mess.
I don't know what to believe these days as lies and market manipulation are business as usual.
Leave it in the ground so my unborn grandchildren can use it to go fishing.
GLG
I think I need a beer.... Wait there one just to the left.

 

[Gunsmith]

Better get some popcorn Reelfast should be back soon.

 

[Islandgirl]

If the USA demand for petroleum product is shrinking.. they have a Loooong way to go!

Country Comparison :: Oil - consumption
This entry is the total oil consumed in barrels per day (bbl/day). The discrepancy between the amount of oil produced and/or imported and the amount consumed and/or exported is due to the omission of stock changes, refinery gains, and other complicating factors.



https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2174rank.html

Rank country (bbl/day) Date of Information


1 United States 19,150,000 2010 est.

2 European Union 13,730,000 2010 est.

3 China 9,057,000 2010

4 Japan 4,452,000 2010 est.

5 India 3,182,000 2010 est.

6 Brazil 2,654,000 2010 est.

7 Saudi Arabia 2,643,000 2010 est.

8 Germany 2,495,000 2010 est.

9 Korea, South 2,251,000 2010 est.

10 Canada 2,209,000 2010 est.

11 Russia 2,199,000 3010

12 Mexico 2,073,000 2010 est.

13 France 1,861,000 2010 est.

14 Iran 1,845,000 2010 est.

15 United Kingdom 1,622,000 2010 est.